[gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[james]

Hello,


There was some discussion before about the software used for gentoo the 
charity (501)(c). It seems to have perked up a bit of discussion on 
gnucash, where all of the posting I have read suggest that gnucash is a 
wonderful accounting system for  charity organizations. There also 
appears to be lots of experience and help to. I thought this issue need 
a separate thread on gentoo-dev, a robust decision, and a team based 
solution, if  not a council item.

Here is the latest posting I have received on the 501(c) subject matter,
I thought I share and formally open up a discussion on the subject:



Here's my original post::

Hello gnucash users.

I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy with 
it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 501(c)3
non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?

Any and all comments are warmly received.

James
........................................

The the most recent reply:

 >
 > [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/

I regard cli accounting as a friend of GnuCash rather than the
competition, there isn't anything one can do that the other can't in
accounting terms, also notice that cli accounting is becoming less so as
time passes, there are UIs and SQL type reports and so on being added
all the time, the principle is that compared to commercial products you
can, if you really want to, see a stream of transactions in ordinary ABC
and 123 terms, gnc can be dumped to cli and vice versa.

I'm not saying you or someone else should choose one or the other, I'm
asking you to thunk which is most likely to get people keeping good
records for the benefit of their non-profit.  I know that for one
non-profit I help out with a basic cli would be a non-starter, no UI and
the tx simply wouldn't get entered.

 > [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1

worth reading, note the bits about restricted funds, that is what people
that are familiar with for-profit orgs usually struggle with conceptually

 > [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/

that's been updated since I read it last but seems to be more face lift
than new content

James, you've got some good links there but don't actually say what the
imperatives for your correspondent are.

I, and I am sure others, are happy to espouse GnuCash, *if we think it
is right* for your org.  I don't have enough to go on.  There is little
harm in trying it, however, as it is easy enough to get your tx in and
out if cli accounting is your alternative.

Happy helping and non-profiteering (if that is even a concept in merka
post Trump)
-- 
Wm

.............................................................................


Surely our code of conduct, evidence by principled and publish documents 
and the records of expenditures over the years, are quintessential 
documents and should experience governance in the sunshine, or no?

hth,
James

[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[james]

On 12/07/2016 01:31 PM, james wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
> There was some discussion before about the software used for gentoo the
> charity (501)(c). It seems to have perked up a bit of discussion on
> gnucash, where all of the posting I have read suggest that gnucash is a
> wonderful accounting system for  charity organizations. There also
> appears to be lots of experience and help to. I thought this issue need
> a separate thread on gentoo-dev, a robust decision, and a team based
> solution, if  not a council item.
>
> Here is the latest posting I have received on the 501(c) subject matter,
> I thought I share and formally open up a discussion on the subject:
>
>
>
> Here's my original post::
>
> Hello gnucash users.
>
> I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy with
> it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 501(c)3
> non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?
>
> Any and all comments are warmly received.
>
> James
> ........................................
>
> The the most recent reply:
>
>>
>> [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/
>
> I regard cli accounting as a friend of GnuCash rather than the
> competition, there isn't anything one can do that the other can't in
> accounting terms, also notice that cli accounting is becoming less so as
> time passes, there are UIs and SQL type reports and so on being added
> all the time, the principle is that compared to commercial products you
> can, if you really want to, see a stream of transactions in ordinary ABC
> and 123 terms, gnc can be dumped to cli and vice versa.
>
> I'm not saying you or someone else should choose one or the other, I'm
> asking you to thunk which is most likely to get people keeping good
> records for the benefit of their non-profit.  I know that for one
> non-profit I help out with a basic cli would be a non-starter, no UI and
> the tx simply wouldn't get entered.
>
>> [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1
>
> worth reading, note the bits about restricted funds, that is what people
> that are familiar with for-profit orgs usually struggle with conceptually
>
>> [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/
>
> that's been updated since I read it last but seems to be more face lift
> than new content
>
> James, you've got some good links there but don't actually say what the
> imperatives for your correspondent are.
>
> I, and I am sure others, are happy to espouse GnuCash, *if we think it
> is right* for your org.  I don't have enough to go on.  There is little
> harm in trying it, however, as it is easy enough to get your tx in and
> out if cli accounting is your alternative.
>
> Happy helping and non-profiteering (if that is even a concept in merka
> post Trump)


Why thank you James for helping us focus on charity and organizational 
commitment. Here is an IRS online document, that is just exciting to 
read, when one puts on the filter of gentoo_behavior and reads the 
requirements to be a 501(c)3  [1]



[1] 
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p557/ch03.html#en_US_201602_publink1000200036


So which category is Gentoo under?


Where are the public records?


Can we get complete historical ledger of the organization published?


Are we (gentoo, council and foundation) in compliance?

Audit Records?


Let's get cracking on which FOSS package we want to use, as a community 
decision. I suggest preparation and a public vote.


Other ideas?


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[Jigme Datse Rasku]

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I have been using LedgerSMB as when I was looking everything except
SQL-Ledger (which got forked to LedgerSMB) was either too expensive
(commercial, and a lot didn't run on Linux) or more pain than writing in a
ledger book (easier to screw up, and harder to remember what I was doing
anyway).

As I haven't looked at options for ages, due to feeling LedgerSMB continues
to be a good fit (I switched to them soon after the fork), and mostly fails
for me in terms of multiple features I don't really need, or so far haven't
even found a use case that works for me, but many over time which I thought
I wouldn't use, I do now.  don't need to, but it works.

I expressed recently that *if* they created a "only new code" version which
only had basic accounting features, I could, and would work with it, if
that worked mostly like that is currently working.

For me, as the interface (web based) is a huge plus over anything I looked
at in the past.

On Dec 7, 2016 10:32, "james" <garftd@verizon.net> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> There was some discussion before about the software used for gentoo the
> charity (501)(c). It seems to have perked up a bit of discussion on
> gnucash, where all of the posting I have read suggest that gnucash is a
> wonderful accounting system for  charity organizations. There also appears
> to be lots of experience and help to. I thought this issue need a separate
> thread on gentoo-dev, a robust decision, and a team based solution, if  not
> a council item.
>
> Here is the latest posting I have received on the 501(c) subject matter,
> I thought I share and formally open up a discussion on the subject:
>
>
>
> Here's my original post::
>
> Hello gnucash users.
>
> I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy with
> it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 501(c)3
> non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?
>
> Any and all comments are warmly received.
>
> James
> ........................................
>
> The the most recent reply:
>
> >
> > [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/
>
> I regard cli accounting as a friend of GnuCash rather than the
> competition, there isn't anything one can do that the other can't in
> accounting terms, also notice that cli accounting is becoming less so as
> time passes, there are UIs and SQL type reports and so on being added
> all the time, the principle is that compared to commercial products you
> can, if you really want to, see a stream of transactions in ordinary ABC
> and 123 terms, gnc can be dumped to cli and vice versa.
>
> I'm not saying you or someone else should choose one or the other, I'm
> asking you to thunk which is most likely to get people keeping good
> records for the benefit of their non-profit.  I know that for one
> non-profit I help out with a basic cli would be a non-starter, no UI and
> the tx simply wouldn't get entered.
>
> > [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1
>
> worth reading, note the bits about restricted funds, that is what people
> that are familiar with for-profit orgs usually struggle with conceptually
>
> > [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/
>
> that's been updated since I read it last but seems to be more face lift
> than new content
>
> James, you've got some good links there but don't actually say what the
> imperatives for your correspondent are.
>
> I, and I am sure others, are happy to espouse GnuCash, *if we think it
> is right* for your org.  I don't have enough to go on.  There is little
> harm in trying it, however, as it is easy enough to get your tx in and
> out if cli accounting is your alternative.
>
> Happy helping and non-profiteering (if that is even a concept in merka
> post Trump)
> --
> Wm
>
> ............................................................
> .................
>
>
> Surely our code of conduct, evidence by principled and publish documents
> and the records of expenditures over the years, are quintessential
> documents and should experience governance in the sunshine, or no?
>
> hth,
> James
>
>

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Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[Robin H. Johnson]

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I'm going to respond to this thread on the NFP list.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[james]

On 12/07/2016 01:53 PM, Jigme Datse Rasku wrote:
> I have been using LedgerSMB as when I was looking everything except
> SQL-Ledger (which got forked to LedgerSMB) was either too expensive
> (commercial, and a lot didn't run on Linux) or more pain than writing in
> a ledger book (easier to screw up, and harder to remember what I was
> doing anyway).
>
> As I haven't looked at options for ages, due to feeling LedgerSMB
> continues to be a good fit (I switched to them soon after the fork), and
> mostly fails for me in terms of multiple features I don't really need,
> or so far haven't even found a use case that works for me, but many over
> time which I thought I wouldn't use, I do now.  don't need to, but it works.
>
> I expressed recently that *if* they created a "only new code" version
> which only had basic accounting features, I could, and would work with
> it, if that worked mostly like that is currently working.
>
> For me, as the interface (web based) is a huge plus over anything I
> looked at in the past.
>
> On Dec 7, 2016 10:32, "james" <garftd@verizon.net
> <mailto:garftd@verizon.net>> wrote:
>

Hey Jigme,

I think gentoo is under a social contract limits our use options to
FOSS accounting packages. Perhaps someone more knowledgable with itemize 
the restrictions gentoo is under for it's 501(c)3 needs.


Here's a shocker from an IRS doc::

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of 
private interests" [1] That basically is a very general statement, open 
to vast interpretation; whether it's a problem for gentoo, remains to be 
seen.

I think someone more knowledgeable than myself should post the 
restrictions and guidance document reference, if any, that constrain and 
guide gentoo in matter of GAAP, 501(c)3 and it foundational 
organization, before an accounting packages is agreed up. Perhaps this 
just a good idea to vet

  how these critical charity records are maintained and disseminated. 
Some states may have additional statues and rules.   The corporation 
papers were filed in Maryland, right? If not, what state where the 
papers filed in?


[1] 
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations



hth,
James

Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[james]

On 12/07/2016 03:02 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> I'm going to respond to this thread on the NFP list.
>

Hey Robin,


Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?

At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
our goals and management infrastructures.


James

Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?
Please DO subscribe.

The long response I just sent is significantly off-topic for the -dev
list. It may be almost on-topic for the -project list, but certainly not
-dev.

The council agenda this month includes getting more off-topic stuff out
of -project, so keeping the lists to their intended function should be
done.

> At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
> discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
> our goals and management infrastructures.
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/ca4fd8c98b9649bb060d48b466927c82

For a slightly older piece, also see the talk I gave about the
Foundation, at this year's Gentoo miniconference:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLICDJo0onMRJFwAD3V7KGZWgnkxQaELeh

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[james]

On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
>> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
>> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?
> Please DO subscribe.

Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper 
understanding of the responsibility chain, gentoo would not be in such a 
mess. These juvenile beliefs and behaviors your dev teams routinely 
display, can be used against the organization, if IRS agents so desire.
It'd be a trivial occurrence for the IRS to reclassify gentoo to 
something other than a charity. Any a. h. can profit by being a snitch 
to the IRS. If you doubt this, find an old/mean/retired IRS agent to 
audit gentoo. A CPA will lie to you, legally. Cause when you make 
mistakes and get audited (can be easily triggered by a pal of the CPA 
you go to), that just means more 'billable hours' for the CPA. They'll 
bleed gentoo dry and participate with the IRS in going after companies 
that have used gentoo for their own gain. When you give to a charity, 
there is suppose to be a 'hands off' what the charity does with the 
gift, otherwise it's a corporate tax-dodge in the eyes of the IRS.
GSoC is a poster child for this problem.


How's that tech relationship with the tech industry and the trump team 
looking these days?  Go read about about what Obama did to the 501(c) 
charities circa the 2012 election cycle. Pense was the ring leader in 
working behind close doors to defund the IRS to calm that one sided
assault on 501(c) organization down.   Read the tea leaves, brah.



The results of what you have discovered, desperately needs to be shared 
with your devs, so they can begin to develop wisdom and culture their 
attitudes into a recognized charity organization, which is what Gentoo 
purports to be. My prayers are with you, brother. Furthermore, the real 
risk is some starving lawyer goes after one of any of the companies that 
have previously been generous to gentoo first attacking gentoo.
It's a dominoes legal strategy and works all the time in the court 
systems. Ignorance of the law and shoddy records puts gentoo squarely in 
the "guilty but pleading for judicial mercy" category. The problem is 
these sorts of lawyers do not need Trump or Pense to do their bidding. 
They earn lots of money churning up 501(c) and many others.


For example some layers have made millions and millions of dollars off 
of suing all sorts of organizations for failure to comply with laws 
related to the disability act. Things like designated parking spots and 
wheelchair ramps. 501(c) and governmental agencies have all been sued as 
such too.  So if a potential dev is OCD, or otherwise has psychological 
disabilities, what is the gentoo strategy to be charitable to them?


Hell, our devs run off folks that are well qualified, due to the clique 
and the standard dev  assimilated trite behaviors. If once they see the 
power, of the dark side, and first hand witness the devastation the IRS 
can bring, they'll all understand and become wise; but at a tremendous 
price.    You catching the drift here? I sure hope so.


> The long response I just sent is significantly off-topic for the -dev
> list. It may be almost on-topic for the -project list, but certainly not
> -dev.

I could not disagree more, but that's your choice.


> The council agenda this month includes getting more off-topic stuff out
> of -project, so keeping the lists to their intended function should be
> done.

You devs are at the heart of the problem; you need to remove your 
blinders and learn from what has happened. Repent and turn Gentoo into 
the wonderful charity it should be. Remove the collective a. h. and 
their behaviors, asap. Set standard and put violators on probation
just like is routine for new devs. Authority alwayhs comes with a price.
Think of it this way, Gentoo is under the microscope and these 
revelations should have a profound effect on the leadership, asap. 
Failure to be wise in leadership, is not going to work as a defense in a 
court of law. Let's hope (and pray) it does not come down to that.


>> At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
>> discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
>> our goals and management infrastructures.
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/ca4fd8c98b9649bb060d48b466927c82


A fine work; thanks for your commitments. I've been here 14 years. This 
is not a problem of anyone's making. It a problem of a lack of 
leadership which is due to a lack of wisdom. Now you and the Council and 
the Foundation are in the positions of leadership; so LEAD.


A word of advise: Document all of the discrepancies you can, since you 
are now involved as a fiduciary with gentoo. Do not hide any of them. 
Publish them and beg all for help. gnucash-user is full of help. FREE 
help. USE it!

California has to have at least one retired IRS agent, if not a thousand 
or more. Find one; learn and seek guidance.


Caveat Emptor!


> For a slightly older piece, also see the talk I gave about the
> Foundation, at this year's Gentoo miniconference:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLICDJo0onMRJFwAD3V7KGZWgnkxQaELeh


hth,
James

Please stay on-topic. (was: Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting])

[Andreas K. Huettel]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016, 15:08:17 schrieb james:
> On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
> >> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
> >> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the
> >> discussion?
> > 
> > Please DO subscribe.
> 
> Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper
> understanding of the responsibility chain...
<snip>

Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic. 

While the topics of gentoo-project are widespread, conspiracy theories and US 
politics are definitely not on-topic here. 

Also, to confirm what robbat2 suggested, Gentoo Foundation organizational 
questions including how to deal with the IRS (should that even be discussed on 
a publicly archived list?) find their best audience on the nfp list.

After all, whoever wants to participate can subscribe there, and whoever 
doesn't subscribe there probably doesn't *want* to hear about it.

- -- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[james]

On 12/08/2016 02:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016, 15:08:17 schrieb james:
>> On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
>>>> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
>>>> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the
>>>> discussion?
>>>
>>> Please DO subscribe.
>>
>> Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper
>> understanding of the responsibility chain...
> <snip>
>
> Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic.

Problems caused by gentoo developer behaviors, are "on topic" for this 
list. Your position only serves to obfuscate remedies.


> While the topics of gentoo-project are widespread, conspiracy theories and US
> politics are definitely not on-topic here.


And this sort of analysis is at the heart of why Gentoo is going to be
categorized, as a "Boys Club" or a "tax dodge" or a "Fiefdom in the eyes 
of the IRS. The Gentoo Code of Conduct is quintessentially important to 
future viability of the distro. The devs all need to hear about these 
issues. Read on and you will see an action plan, the reasons for it and 
bit more detail, for those that require a bit more anecdotal evidence. 
Satisfactory resolution can not be achieved by the Council, nor the 
Foundation. It must be embraced by the wider gentoo dev community. In 
fact  remedies proposed here can be implemented by a hand full of astute 
devs, should their convictions diverge from the council or foundation. 
Therefore, this is a paramount issue for those with dev status and those 
of us that have been participating with gentoo for quite a few years and 
have first hand witnessed these dev-induced malfeasant actions.



*please listen* and we can save this distro from the fiefdom of 
constrained control, largely made possible by the dev community and the 
senior (privileged) devs whom also  have a tainted history with Gentoo.
Many senior devs have "clean hands" as we all know. Gentoo is not alone, 
  there is, Alpine linux, now the fiefdom of Docker, and the linux 
kernel project are both viable candidates too, for scrutiny. In fact 
there are many charity-tech  organizations (particularly 501(c) which 
can be portrayed as not being open but merely tax-avoidance schemes; 
this effects us all, deeply.


> Also, to confirm what robbat2 suggested, Gentoo Foundation organizational
> questions including how to deal with the IRS (should that even be discussed on
> a publicly archived list?) find their best audience on the nfp list.

This can all be cleaned up. But decisive action needs to occur. Just 
read on or lodge your complaints with the Council if you feel the need.


> After all, whoever wants to participate can subscribe there, and whoever
> doesn't subscribe there probably doesn't *want* to hear about it.

Where are you statistics?  Let's hold a vote and ask gentoo-users to 
participate, if they like. A move to silence would be very interesting
as a point of argument against your position. Perhaps Mr. Robbins can 
weigh on his experiences and perspectives? Other, bitter devs that have 
left? Countless others that have been mistreated (at least in their 
eyes) during their attempted journey to dev status?


SO::

Only three things need to occur, to fix this mess. The past is not a 
problem, if when confronted with the truth the distro leaders take 
significant corrective actions. Converting what accounting records are 
known to gnucash, is trivial. So here are (3) actionable steps that can 
be achieved in short order and some of the reasons from the IRS point of 
view as to why they are of timely, actionable significance.


(1) A GLEP that expedites and makes forking gentoo, relative as easy as 
possible.

(2) An easy and straightforward method(s) to install gentoo. Stage-4, 
CD, ansible, ignition etc etc.

(3) A documented pathway to become a dev on gentoo, with all 
requirements, tests and re-testing documented fairly and applied to all, 
new devs and existing devs alike.



Why (1)::  This allows most anyone be a gentoo dev. Lots of viable forks 
can be a home for learning, training and development of a wide diversity 
of different levels on technical competence, demonstrated by 
successfully being 'a gentoo or gentoo-fork developer'.  Technologies 
like Java, could easily be supported should they choose to allow 
non-sources into the ebuild process, for their gentoo-forked-distro. 
Each fork can have their own dev rules. Anyone can fork gentoo and the 
master of that fork, manages that gentoo-sub-culture as they deem 
reasonable. Migration to dev-proper, can be a more difficult pathway, 
but needs to be open and fair. Training is conducted in the forks; one 
fork could be just for training for those seeking dev-status in 
gentoo-proper. Seriously, being a dev is no big deal. The quintessential 
quality or skill, is knowing which ebuilds  to monkey with which ebuilds 
to leave alone.

This enables (by active promotion) any individual, corporation or 
business to benefit from a deployment of gentoo or a customized version 
of gentoo, just like a privileged few corporations have benefited 
(google, CoreOS etc). Without many companies at least testing and some 
using gentoo, Gentoo is mostly a fiefdom of certain companies. This is 
evidenced by the history of devs that work at these companies and have 
been or currently are gentoo devs. It's back-channel control, evidenced 
by irc and other venues where only certain folks can listen. Since we 
can assume the IRS and various other governmental agencies, and some 
private companies like google, pretty much have every bit and byte of 
gentoo's history logged; let's not pretend that the past is some big 
unknown. It is hidden and camouflaged from the public, particularly the 
older issues and evidence streams, but that's really not a problem, once 
lawyers get involved. Much is publically available too. It's just how 
things occurred.

Forking Gentoo just opens up and encourages all to benefit from 100% 
source builds, gentoo style.



Why (2):: When the IRS looks at gentoo, the most common tool and metric 
they'll use is "What do the other charities in this category do?"

Statistically, linux distros have 'an automated or semi-automated' 
installation. Since gentoo has had many, including stage-4, CD and usb
and such, it can be viewed as a vindictive policy that only serves to 
block others while creating a control mechanism to the point of 
exclusion. The current artificial barriers to installation, aka "follow 
the handbook" will be viewed by discerning eyes as a significant
and unnecessary obstruction to wider public use. Any dev can make 
arguments as the virtues of a painful, manual install, but economically 
it is an unnecessary blocker or a recalcitrant hindrance to progress and 
that is one of easy pathways to justify re-classification of gentoo, as 
a fiefdom. A lack of easy installation semantics, is intentional, 
destructive, and economically disadvantages small companies and most 
individuals from the wonderful benefits of Gentoo. In the eyes of the 
IRS, a fiefdom is often more serious than a known "criminal enterprise". 
If you do not believe me, find a retired IRS agent and ask them in their 
experiences, what the IRS does to a fiefdom, masquerading as a charity?



WHY (3):: Update the exam every (2) years and require all devs take the 
exam to re-qualify. Publish the old exams  and correct answers, once the 
exams are updated. It's about ensuring a basic knowledge base and should 
be allowed to be re-taken, without restriction until correct. IRC is 
vindictive and there are numerous cases where than can easily be 
established by the legal community as corrosive, at best, to those that 
are the victims. That's why everybody else has written exams, once they 
have been sued (in the corporate world). Linux distros live in a 
different world and no doubt many enjoying the benefits of 501(c) 
status, and have many of the same types of problems as Gentoo.



The dev community is constrained and undocumented as to how to become a 
dev., historically. Immediately create a written exam that is all one 
has to pass be a gentoo dev and combine that with other reasonable 
requirements and a few ebuilds created from scratch. Require all devs to 
take the written exam, on a bi-annual basis. As many retries as 
necessary to pass should the exam should be generously available. New 
EAPI skills are just one temporal development that should be the target 
of the dev exams. Dev status should be about a fair and open assessment 
of skills and historical accomplishments (your body of ebuild works). 
The current irc-oral-nighmare examination is merely a prejudicial 
blocker (ask an attorney) that can be and has been applied subjectively. 
There is nothing wrong with posting the questions and answers to 
previous exams; in fact that should be routine. Being a gentoo dev, to 
be legally fair, should be about obtaining a certification, much like 
RHEL or Cisco or other relevant technical standards. Right now, it a 
boys club, that can easily be viewed as a significant and unnecessary 
'cost barrier to entry' to an extraordinarily valuable fiefdom.


CoreOS is little more than binary gentoo, with a few slick management 
tools, although I guessing they'd beg to differ. It's easy to install 
and easier to manage, with our without a formal business relationship. I 
like CoreOS, I think it's great. But my point is they have automated 
installation, and share those codes. So Gentoo's position on making it 
so dam convoluted to install and refusing to offer any form of simple, 
CD based install, is extremely prejudicial to new folks interested in 
the power of gentoo. That is the essence of a fiefdom. We have 
assimilated a wide variety of CoreOS ebuilds into gentoo, to lower their 
cost of ebuild management, one could argue. But the complete set  of 
CoreOS ebuilds required to bring gentoo up to commercial viability has 
intentionally been not supported. Just go read about CoreOS's "ignition" 
or "bare-metal" it's a robust method to install from bare metal, before 
systemd or other init system commitments have  to be instantiated. 
Simply brilliant and totally awesome!

One could argue that systemd is being promoted as an additional false 
blocker on gentoo and the wider linux distros. This "favoring of 
systemd" when the rank and file users of gentoo favor anything but 
systemd, only furthers the arguments of collusion between  distro and 
linux kernel blockers to competition.  Before you argue, show me the 
cluster codes and the wiki pages within gentoo, and detail how to build 
a Gentoo cluster, that does not rely on Systemd. I do not wish to argue 
systemd at the gentoo level, but do wish to include systemd policy at 
the linux-kernel-level as a blocker to free and open competition from 
traditional Open source /linux/uinx. In the entire history of linux 
there has never been such an orchestrated and contrive  and required 
piece of linux kernel code, that violates so many historical semantics 
of both linux and open source as systemd.  CHOICE, the mantra of FOSS 
and linux is being severely and artificially constrained by the 
commercial interests behind systemd.  The uptake of systemd is the 
smoking gun of evidence that many tech projects, proclaiming to be 
charities are, in deed, a ruse for constrained, monopolistic behavior, 
orchestrated by the few that have beneficial relationships with specific 
corporations. It's not speculation it is the basis of valid economic 
arguments that can be use by the IRS, in the name of taxation, Homeland 
security, and in the name of a national security threat. Any number of 
hungry lawyers that just need a payday can participate. So this tainted 
behavior by the linux kernel folks now infects most linux distros and it 
is anti-competive at best and most likely monopolistic and vindictive, 
were it to be litigated fully. Luckily, I'm not sure the new 
administration has the talent to litigate or resolve this sort of 
monopolistic behavior. The fact that such actions can bring in billions 
of dollars to the federal treasury, well, I'm not so sure that's not of 
extreme interest to the new  leaders of the IRS.





Now any senior Gentoo dev and the council may classify this next part as 
"conspiracy theory" but it's not. It's reality and it does effect all of 
the gentoo linux community, the wider linux user folks and 501(c) 
organizations that use or are integral to the linux community::

The new administration is going to need billions/trillions of dollars to 
finance the rebuilding of American industry (fact). The IRS is their 
chief agent to "bring in the revenues" (fact). The IRS can reclassify 
the linux kernel project, as a tax dodge, a fiefdom and a threat to 
national security, for a large array of previous "sins". (needs to be 
proven, but the way the IRS works, they "squeeze" but one company, the 
word get's and the deal cutting commences in a fury-rush to settle) (so 
FACT). This "squeeze" automatically makes any number of Large 
Corporations, around the world, tax liable (fact) and motivated to 
appease the new leadership team (we shall see).

Many global corps will sell out to cut a quick deal, and pay all sorts 
of fees, penalties and back taxes  to cover the value of what the linux 
kernel has done for their product sales. I.E. they pay the linux kernel 
taxes on behave of their interest and gains for using a tax-dodge like 
the linux-kernel. There will be a rush to  move industry back to the US. 
Trump has to do very little, other than grant audiences and take victory 
laps, as he chooses. Naturally, Trump, being a deal maker will bring 
back millions of jobs and thousands of manufacturing facilities to US 
controlled soil.  This return is strategic to national defense, so even 
what's left of the establishment-corrupted-republicans are going to have 
to get on-board (speculation), they'll be allowed to funnel some 
proceeds to the DoD, as is always the goal of establishment republicans. 
Democrats will be glad and supportive  as jobs for their constituents 
will also be in the mix of benefits.

Likewise Brexit, Italy, china and others will smartly-rush to complete 
their industrial bases and local markets so all the world will prosper.
Those H1B visas folks here in the US, dude, international VCs and 
Globalist organizations are all going to start a rigorous recruitment of 
that talent, so as to build up their  home nations. India reigns supreme 
here, but all will look to incentivize those H1B folks to return home 
and enjoy commercial prosperity and be part of their own, national 
resurgence. Trump will champion the prosperity rights of those H1B visa 
folks that return home asap and their homeland governments will join in 
to, welcoming home those H1B visa folks, many which have been abused by 
global corporations while here in the US.

The world shall proper, without limit, and 'Trump the Chump' ( propular 
Democratic chant)  then becomes hailed as 'Trump the Champ' of human 
rights and  prosperity for all peoples around the world. Yes the global 
elites will pay some new taxes (to their designation home country) but 
they'll financially heal up, just fine,  and peace will flourish around 
the globe. Can you imagine how Pakistan and Iran and others will prosper 
when most of their smartest citizens return home to start new 
businesses?  America will prosper mightily too, probably the most, as 
deep patriotism rebound and economic prosperity is had, but all.
There is more than sufficient talent and new talent available, despite 
the BS that TECH  purpots, right here now in American. Numerous experts 
have kept tabs on the numbers of STEM college kids, who are US citizens, 
that are routinely discriminated against for jobs. Fully one half of 
them never get stem jobs. California has  class about lawsuit against 
quite a few TECH giants for discrimination against older (particularly 
white-male) workers. Stupid hyperbole like "goolyness" is the defense.

A Tsunami is coming in that direction, once it is branded a "national 
defense" issue. TECHs intentional efforts to marginalize millions of 
American Citizens, is not going to play well with the new leaders of the 
IRS. (fact and already a deep promise). And yes a forkable gentoo, can 
and should lead the charge of global tech prosperity. In fact, Gentoo is 
uniquely positioned to be in a position of leadership. Do you have any 
idea of the millions and millions of dollars in government program 
grants that are going to be available to those 'charities' that assist 
the new administration ? Prosperity and nationalism for all nations, 
despite what academics and globalist say, is going to very, very good 
for middle class folks and wise, fleet-footed business leaders.


The history of the linux kernel project is littered with dead companies, 
many because they could not get their devices to be supported by the 
linux kernel project. Regardless of reason, all of those technical 
arguments will not hold up in a court of law, because
most of the kernel is optional; just don't compile in those sources
you do not like. Do no harm. Dirt simple, economically.  Blockers, 
regardless of good intentions, standards, or whatever, have 
disadvantaged companies to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. 
Some filtering might be justifiable, but a large amount of what has 
occurred, was baseless and destructive to competition.  Other 
corporations did the exact same thing and it was blessed and included 
in the sources. The linux kernel project is ripe for labeling as any 
number of disruptive, noncompetitive or national security threats.


The IRS, and any number of agencies can pierce this 'holy vial' of 
economic hippocracy, with trivial effort, because legally all you have 
to do is find one example, historically, where one company did something 
and others were not allow the same opportunity and the entire hoax is 
legally exposed. Corporate American and many international companies 
have been "doodling the linux kernel" for a long time to their 
competitive advantage over other competing companies.  It continues on 
today:: here is a prime example where  it can be argued that Intel and 
Nvidia are the economic beneficiaries of blocking AMD [1] as a 
competitor, via verbiage and hubris that others have been allow to 
orchestrate. If I were AMD, I'd go public, go legal and to Home Land 
Security and start pleading their case. This clearly shows deception as 
blatant economic discrimination  by the linux-kernel-folks.  Just make 
it modular, for now, and AMD can use profits from the sale of equipment, 
to hire folks to do things as 'the brain trust' at the linux kernel so 
demand. As a blocker, AMD will be burdened and unnecessarily delayed, so 
Intel and Nvidia continue to prosper in an unfair and unreasonably 
contrived deception.


The linux kernel project is the 'one stop shop' Where Trump/Pence have 
most of the tech industry, "by the balls". And it is known in keen 
circles as such. That's why "TECH" is already the "bitch" of the ICEMAN.
Unknown is the size and methods of relief that shall be extracted. If 
Trumps fails the citizens on fixing  jobs and manufacturing and the 
nation, then he'll be a one-term president. Trump needs revenue and 
squeezing TECH is his best most fair alternative. After all, TECH, under 
Obama have paid a tiny fraction, of what they should have paid in taxes, 
while many other industries where heavily tax and regulated into oblivion.


Trump/Pense are the GoodCop/ICEMAN team and they are looking to clean 
things up a bit and bring in revenue to fund a more equitably and 
distributed industrial base in American. TECH, has run afoul.  TECH, 
particularly the purveyors of the Internet, went to ridiculous extremes 
to defeat Trump/Pense in the election and they lost. There is a 
house-cleaning coming, including the civil rights violations of many 
American by TECH. The new government is going to get cart-blanche 
permission to violate citizen's privacy, for national-security reasons 
only, but TECH's days are numbered. All of this will either be embraced 
by TECH (the wise ones that read the tea-leafs) or by the IRS and 
Homeland Security, as part of a cleaning up of the IoT industries that 
have become a national security threat and a haven for nefarious 
activists. Home much of the illegal and nefarious activities of the IoT 
Bots has ended up in the databases of TECH? Somebody has to pay, and 
TECH has deep pockets, that mostly support democrats and are due to pay 
some taxes.


GENTOO can be cleaned up, quite easily, and become the wonderful readily 
available linux distro to fork or install, as it once was when 
installation was a snap. In can and should be used, globally and thus 
should play a key role in re-repatriating H1B folks into their own 
homeland, in a most prosperous position. If Gentoo's leadership becomes 
wise, we can save this distro and make it shine like no other linux 
distro can, and the readers of this list know what I am saying is truth 
and empowering to all people and to small to mid-sized businesses.  A 
small team of devs could pull off (1-3) if they decide to clean up 
gentoo, without Council/Foundation approval. Let's remove the blockers 
and make gentoo readily accessible to the masses, as all charities 
should do. Perform task (1-3), rapidly and I'll personally put together 
a team that handles the corrupted (jaded?) past problems of Gentoo and 
that also launches gentoo into outstanding status at the IRS and a 
pristine charity of good and moral conduct, quite worthy of donations 
and research grants and philanthropic gifts. Guaranteed!


Right now, Gentoo is at best a boys club; probably a fiefdom, if the IRS 
wants to use it as a stepping stone to those with deeper pockets in 
TECH. God know we have lots of unemployed STEM folks that can 
economically benefit, should the ICEMAN decided TECH needs to be audited 
both the history and source codes in use by those TECH companies.  Think 
about it, TECH starts to pony up taxes and fines and all sorts of 
revenue, to the ICEMAN and his teams, and millions of underemployed  US 
citizens get employed to audit these TECH companies, line by line. Why 
TECH could create paychecks for millions of jobs here in the US and the 
benefits would be widely distributed to other companies and places 
around the US.

Regardless *THE ICEMAN COMMETH*. and how do we prepare?



[1] 
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2016-December/126516.html


> Andreas K. Huettel
> Gentoo Linux developer
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> http://www.akhuettel.de/


James Horton,
Optimist

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Friday, December 9, 2016 3:24:44 PM EST james wrote:
> On 12/08/2016 02:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>
> > 
> > Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic.
> 
> Problems caused by gentoo developer behaviors, are "on topic" for this
> list. Your position only serves to obfuscate remedies.

Be careful, let what happened to me on -project stand as a warning.  Short of 
this reply I am mostly radio silent, no posts, no bugs, no irc, nada... I was 
encouraged for such. Most do not care about the big picture, just their neck 
of the woods. Your posts make mine seem abridged :)

A few select comments, as most rather not hear from me entirely.  I will focus 
on technical ones.

>  Technologies
> like Java, could easily be supported should they choose to allow
> non-sources into the ebuild process, for their gentoo-forked-distro.

This is already taking place in Gentoo. There is not the man power, time, or 
experience for larger Java applications to be packaged. They are going into 
tree as binaries. Most without even unbundling deps that are packaged in tree.

> This enables (by active promotion) any individual, corporation or
> business to benefit from a deployment of gentoo or a customized version
> of gentoo, just like a privileged few corporations have benefited
> (google, CoreOS etc). Without many companies at least testing and some
> using gentoo, Gentoo is mostly a fiefdom of certain companies. This is
> evidenced by the history of devs that work at these companies and have
> been or currently are gentoo devs. It's back-channel control, evidenced
> by irc and other venues where only certain folks can listen. 

This is the down side of letting everyone work on something that pertains to 
them. Without any sort of over all leadership, a common goal or direction from 
the Council. I am not sure Gentoo has had such leadership since the Chief 
Architect position was eliminated.

It is one thing for a developer to work in an area, scratch their itch. But as 
companies hire developers. Those companies can start to take things in their 
own direction. Largely this has not been a problem, but it lets outside 
companies indirectly control the direction of Gentoo. If a conflict between 
companies arises, it could get interesting. Thankfully not an issue and may 
never become one.

> WHY (3):: Update the exam every (2) years and require all devs take the
> exam to re-qualify.

Interesting comment as someone who has done the quizzes several times. Most 
developers do them once and never again. I wonder how many would pass a quiz 
if they were retested....

Also something many here are likely not aware. To become a Gentoo Java 
Developer, there are 3 quizzes. There is a 3rd Gentoo Java Quiz. I am not 
aware of any other quizzes for other parts of the tree. Which in part goes to 
show some of the complexities with Java.

Though it may be beneficial if others come up with their own quizzes, which 
could be small. There are some nuances to packaging other languages. Not sure 
if as many as Java to require another quiz, but may help for others joining 
teams for other languages.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Java/Developer_Quiz

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[james]

On 12/09/2016 03:58 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 3:24:44 PM EST james wrote:
>> On 12/08/2016 02:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic.
>>
>> Problems caused by gentoo developer behaviors, are "on topic" for this
>> list. Your position only serves to obfuscate remedies.
>
> Be careful, let what happened to me on -project stand as a warning.  Short of
> this reply I am mostly radio silent, no posts, no bugs, no irc, nada... I was
> encouraged for such. Most do not care about the big picture, just their neck
> of the woods. Your posts make mine seem abridged :)

Hey very cool advise. But I'm an old maverick. Hell I was 86'd from 
gentoo user at least once, probably twice for offering to pay devs to 
create ebuilds, that my small company could use and would be freely 
available to all. Somehow google does the same thing, except it's a 
regular paycheck and that is OK. I ask to do it and get banished for a 
while. Fiefdom.



> A few select comments, as most rather not hear from me entirely.  I will focus
> on technical ones.
>
>>  Technologies
>> like Java, could easily be supported should they choose to allow
>> non-sources into the ebuild process, for their gentoo-forked-distro.
>
> This is already taking place in Gentoo. There is not the man power, time, or
> experience for larger Java applications to be packaged. They are going into
> tree as binaries. Most without even unbundling deps that are packaged in tree.

Yep. Apache Spark is one of my java complaints (I mean bugs) BGO-523412. 
There is a purported version of Apache spark, written in Python; "dpark" 
I believe is the name, not sure it's still active.
But I'm not allowed to pass out beer money, or a weekend in Vegas money 
for things that benefit the gentoo community, or so I'm told 
Apache-Spark the blocker and is a really cool package that can be added 
to Apache-Mesos, for cluster acceleration. But Apache Mesos is a 
competitor to other favored cluster codes at Gentoo. Fiefdom?



>> This enables (by active promotion) any individual, corporation or
>> business to benefit from a deployment of gentoo or a customized version
>> of gentoo, just like a privileged few corporations have benefited
>> (google, CoreOS etc). Without many companies at least testing and some
>> using gentoo, Gentoo is mostly a fiefdom of certain companies. This is
>> evidenced by the history of devs that work at these companies and have
>> been or currently are gentoo devs. It's back-channel control, evidenced
>> by irc and other venues where only certain folks can listen.
>
> This is the down side of letting everyone work on something that pertains to
> them. Without any sort of over all leadership, a common goal or direction from
> the Council. I am not sure Gentoo has had such leadership since the Chief
> Architect position was eliminated.
>
> It is one thing for a developer to work in an area, scratch their itch. But as
> companies hire developers. Those companies can start to take things in their
> own direction. Largely this has not been a problem, but it lets outside
> companies indirectly control the direction of Gentoo. If a conflict between
> companies arises, it could get interesting. Thankfully not an issue and may
> never become one.

I have no problem with this. I have  a large problem with gentoo distro 
management, effectively via policies, constraining commerce. Sorry, I'm 
not one to snitch, however when the ICEMAN comes calling, I am going to 
laugh out loud and share the pain with others. It's been a long time 
coming.  definitely Fiefdom.


>> WHY (3):: Update the exam every (2) years and require all devs take the
>> exam to re-qualify.
>
> Interesting comment as someone who has done the quizzes several times. Most
> developers do them once and never again. I wonder how many would pass a quiz
> if they were retested....

Are you espousing principals of truth, equity and otherwise, "do unto 
other as you'd have them do unto you"?  I believe that's how Pense 
rolls, from what I read but some lawyer buddies from Ohio say he is the
ICEMAN.


> Also something many here are likely not aware. To become a Gentoo Java
> Developer, there are 3 quizzes. There is a 3rd Gentoo Java Quiz. I am not
> aware of any other quizzes for other parts of the tree. Which in part goes to
> show some of the complexities with Java.

Been down that path. The exam was not ready a few years ago. I've moved 
on. But I'm just a java hack because the way things are done, it's just
a voluminous source of ever changing codes and new patches that requires 
a full time attention to be effective. By the time I hack something 
java, it the old unsupported way to do things. I'm fine with using 
canned modules and binaries, I just think gentoo ought offer a secure 
sandbox, VM, container or whatever for java. I do understand the 
concerns so it is frustrating and I just do not have the time to become 
a java whiz, unless writing your own rxtx counts? I built a serial data 
analyzer that sniffs the physical serial interface too, just for 
grins...... actually for a customer.


> Though it may be beneficial if others come up with their own quizzes, which
> could be small. There are some nuances to packaging other languages. Not sure
> if as many as Java to require another quiz, but may help for others joining
> teams for other languages.

I'd be happy if they'd say, read this book or take this only class or 
whatever, along with buiding a few ebuilds from scratch, ebuilds centric 
to that project group. So mini quizzes on Ruby, Perl, Go etc are 
warranted, gentoo specific. Me, when I hack things I'm weak at, it is 
usually not a problem after 8 and 16 bit assembler for embedded things, 
there's not much fear, just codes that do not work.... So then, I just 
email the builds to a dev that knows those languages, and things are 
usually fixed quickly.   Formal teaming efforts are frowned upon,
as you know, unless you are in the clique(s) or proxided. Alan McKinnon 
is a java dude,  I think, and very cool, so you should recruit him, or 
find java projects he might like or at least proxy maintain.


> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Java/Developer_Quiz

I'll look it over, but no promises.......



James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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Staying technical, would say more, but I am already saying more than anyone 
would want me to, since most want me to go away...

On Friday, December 9, 2016 5:21:53 PM EST james wrote:
>
> Been down that path. The exam was not ready a few years ago. I've moved
> on. But I'm just a java hack because the way things are done, it's just
> a voluminous source of ever changing codes and new patches that requires
> a full time attention to be effective. By the time I hack something
> java, it the old unsupported way to do things.

While that literally was the case when I joined, 2006, when generation 2 
Gentoo Java eclasses and such were being hashed out. I would revise an ebuild, 
commit, things would change, revise, commit, repeat... However things have 
been pretty stagnant on the Java front for some time. Very little eclass  
changes.

I have made effort to document the eclasses and Java ways of doing things on 
Gentoo. Having helped to make the quiz years ago which also could use an 
update. Though since I have some disagreements with devs who from time to time 
who poke Java stuff. I have pretty much stopped. With recent actions taken 
against me on -project, I doubt I will ever resume.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?title=Java_Developer_Guide&action=history
https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?
title=Gentoo_Java_Packing_Policy&action=history

>  I'm fine with using
> canned modules and binaries, I just think gentoo ought offer a secure
> sandbox, VM, container or whatever for java. I do understand the
> concerns so it is frustrating and I just do not have the time to become
> a java whiz, unless writing your own rxtx counts? I built a serial data
> analyzer that sniffs the physical serial interface too, just for
> grins...... actually for a customer.

Java on Gentoo is really not bad, if you are familiar with Java at all.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[Gordon Pettey]

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On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 4:36 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>
wrote:

> Java on Gentoo is really not bad, if you are familiar with Java at all.
>

It's actually quite insane "if you're familiar with Java at all"...

Building C and C++ from source is great. 51% of dev-java category is doing
pointless work. 401 ebuilds only have IUSE="doc source" which can almost
always be fetched from Maven Central, and 44 ebuilds have no USE flags at
all. That's just from simple grep results. Given the ugly majority there, I
don't doubt there's some silliness going on in the remaining 49%. Building
Java from source to get the exact same jar file every time on a million
machines when you could just fetch the upstream jar instead is plain stupid.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Friday, December 9, 2016 5:06:14 PM EST Gordon Pettey wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 4:36 PM, William L. Thomson Jr. <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com>
> 
> wrote:
> > Java on Gentoo is really not bad, if you are familiar with Java at all.
> 
> It's actually quite insane "if you're familiar with Java at all"...

I have been coding in Java since 1.3, going back to 2001 I think.

> Building C and C++ from source is great. 51% of dev-java category is doing
> pointless work.

In what sense? What source/target are pre-compiled jars?

That same thing could be said for perl, python, ruby, and likely others on 
Gentoo. However they tend to be the same, they have no source/target like 
Java.

> 401 ebuilds only have IUSE="doc source" which can almost
> always be fetched from Maven Central

Fetched in another step, this allows it to exist locally. But many are moving 
to Gradle. Maven is a bit old school now, one step beyond ant.

> , and 44 ebuilds have no USE flags at all.

They may be upstream -bins, Sun had a fair amount with no source release. 
Could be the doc/source were omitted on accident or purpose.

> That's just from simple grep results. Given the ugly majority there, I
> don't doubt there's some silliness going on in the remaining 49%. Building
> Java from source to get the exact same jar file every time on a million
> machines when you could just fetch the upstream jar instead is plain stupid.

Really is it the exact same jar? You know what changing source/target does 
right?. Which Gentoo does have some issues there, as it does not use older 
rt.jar when using targets < current JVM version.

https://blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/bootclasspath_older_source

Not all jars are the same, not all Java binaries are the same. Tossing a 1.7 
jar into a 1.8 JVM does not really give you any 1.8 benefits. It will run as if 
it was 1.7 in a 1.8 JVM for example.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Please stay on-topic.

[Andrew Savchenko]

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Hi,

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:24:44 -0500 james wrote:
> On 12/08/2016 02:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016, 15:08:17 schrieb james:
> >> On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
> >>>> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
> >>>> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the
> >>>> discussion?
> >>>
> >>> Please DO subscribe.
> >>
> >> Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper
> >> understanding of the responsibility chain...
> > <snip>
> >
> > Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic.
> 
> Problems caused by gentoo developer behaviors, are "on topic" for this 
> list.

No, they are not. As I remember from my quizzer gentoo-dev is
intended for technical discussions only. For legal stuff we have
nfp mail list, for general project related stuff which doesn't fit
cases above we have project mail list.

The reason we have such separation is that different people have
different interests, e.g. some developers are not even members of
the Foundation, because they have no interest in legal stuff and it
is their right to be so. One of the reasons we have separation
between the Council and the Trustees is to relieve developers not
interested in legal stuff from legal stuff.

And now you are proposing to discuss legal matters on gentoo-dev.
This is terribly wrong. Is it that hard to subscribe on gentoo-nfp
mail list? It is open for everyone and is created for exactly these
kind of discussions: legal and other Foundation-related stuff.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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