From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5512 invoked by uid 1002); 21 Aug 2003 19:35:03 -0000 Mailing-List: contact gentoo-dev-help@gentoo.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Received: (qmail 26201 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2003 19:35:03 -0000 Message-ID: <3F451EC1.80108@gentoo.org> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:34:25 -0400 From: Stewart Honsberger Organization: Gentoo Technologies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030710 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luke-Jr Cc: foser , gentoo-dev@gentoo.org References: <20030819112719.3ff4da41.svyatogor@gentoo.org> <200308200116.33551.luke-jr@gentoo.org> <3F445A5D.4080301@gentoo.org> <200308211333.29393.luke-jr@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <200308211333.29393.luke-jr@gentoo.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in X-Archives-Salt: 1bf5664b-7159-4003-88d9-bfec0e31f78c X-Archives-Hash: 628e06dada18a14cdbfbdf1ce2c91b2f Luke-Jr wrote: > No, but tools should be obvious to the user when they can be without losing > any functionality. Nano, for example, makes itself quite obvious how to use > and is not, AFAIK, explained anywhere in the manual. cfdisk is obvious in the > same way. As far as the manual goes, neither nano nor cfdisk lack any needed > functionality. I'm not saying Nano shouldn't be included by any means. As for cfdisk, it's less standard (read: common) than fdisk, and questions have been raised about its functionality. I've repaird literally thousands of partition tables with fdisk (the same one, if only prior versions going back several years that ships on the Gentoo install CD) and never encountered a problem. Why not stick with something that takes minutes to learn, is standard, and proven reliable? >>fdisk is a simple, standard, powerful partition table editor. I've used >>Linux's fdisk to repair botched tables more times than I can count. >>Instructions for use can be very simple. > > Instructions for fdisk can be simple, as opposed to not really needing > instructions for cfdisk at all... I'm not saying exclude fdisk (it can't be > that big), but there's no reason to use it by default (eg in the manual). Including alternate tools for every part of the installation, especially when including tools that are not industry / POSIX standard tools, is contributing to bloat. Here's an idea; what about having a standard set of tools on the minimal install CD, and only including duplicate functionality / "user friendly" tools, scripts, menus, and installation GUIs on the larger CD that comes with Stage3? Why are newbie users installing from Stage1 if they can't even use vi or fdisk anyways? Perhaps one of those lines could include the notion of "Advanced installation from the ground up" or "hand-holding from Stage3 with the option of using Stage1 if you're so inclined". >>The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems >>like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines; >> 1 - >>vi - Load file for editing 2 - >>/ - search >> 3 - >>:w - Write file to disk 4 - >>:q - Quit >> 5 - >>Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit >> >>Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit >>their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain >>(global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality. > > I don't see anything in those *4* lines explaining how to enter data (eg 'i' Five lines. A sixth could be added that reads along the lines of; Press 'i' to enter insert / edit mode, press Esc to return to command mode. (Word wrap notwithstanding) > or 'a'), but like fdisk, vi would require explaining how to use it whereas > nano is obvious, so it should be includes, but not in the manual. That's my point - how much "obvious" stuff are we going to include in the installation procedure of a self-proclaimed "advanced user" distribution? As for the installation manual, it should perhaps contian pointers to instruct people how to reference the help / manual pages for these respective applications. In fdisk, for example, the default prompt urges you to press '?' for help. How much more obvious can it get? >>I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if >>you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those >>boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues >>that are raised weekly on this list. ;> > > I agree we may need to keep the "idiot" and "real user" communities seperate, > but there's no reason both cannot exist. If we keep the entry bar high, we'll produce a more educated Linux user community, and the forums, IRC channels and Bugzilla will be less clogged with FAQs and inanities. (Read: Developer time better spent). Gentoo is in a great position to teach users to work with standard tools, rather than looking for the easy-out two-click brainless method emplored by 'other' OSs and distributions. We can teach users to look through documentation and search engines and try to answer their own questions before they come looking for hand holding. As I said before, this is a slippery slope. The more user-friendly you make a tool, the more dumbed down people will want it. We're way behind the likes of RedHat, Mandrake and SuSE in that regard and trying to catch up would only put is in the league of so many other mediochre distributions who've tried and failed. If people want an idiot-proof install, I tell them to investigate RedHat. I won't reccomend Gentoo to a person who can barely fudge their way through a Windows installation because it's unfair to them and the user community. People offering support in #Gentoo shouldn't have to answer 50 daily "Where is my C: drive?" questions. Beisdes that; if our installation procedure forces people to learn (and more importantly; learn how to learn), we'll find ourselves with a swath of qualified individuals from whom to select as new developers. Right now the install.txt can be practically followed to the letter to get a person up and running with a Gentoo system. I know; I've done it myself; executed each command in sequence until eventually I was booted to a login prompt and rearing to go. Consider how many people can't understand this procedure and tell us on a daily basis how difficult Gentoo is to install! -- Stewart Honsberger Gentoo Developer http://www.snerk.org/ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list