[gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Svyatogor]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 567 bytes --]

Hello!

The new x86 Installation guide is featuring fdisk as a tool for
partitioning hard drives. I think it's not a best choice and propose to
replace it with cfdisk, which (AFAIK) is also on the installtion CDs. I
filed a bug on this topic, where I listed all my arguments.

Any comment is welcomed!

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26903

P.S. -doc people, could you please reply on -dev, so that we avoid
having to separate threads.

-- 
Let the Force be with us!
Sergey Kuleshov <svyatogor@gentoo.org>
Public Key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~sergey/gentoo-gpg

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:27:19AM +0300, Svyatogor wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> The new x86 Installation guide is featuring fdisk as a tool for
> partitioning hard drives. I think it's not a best choice and propose to
> replace it with cfdisk, which (AFAIK) is also on the installtion CDs. I
> filed a bug on this topic, where I listed all my arguments.
> 
> Any comment is welcomed!
> 
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26903
> 
> P.S. -doc people, could you please reply on -dev, so that we avoid
> having to separate threads.
> 

This has come up in the past; the verdict has always been that cfdisk 
lacks a few essential features and creates messier partition tables. 
Additionally, our fdisk instructions are verbose and informative enough 
that even total newbies have been able to figure it out (and probably 
learned something useful in the process).

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Camille Huot]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 442 bytes --]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:19:01 -0400
Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:

> This has come up in the past; the verdict has always been that cfdisk 
> lacks a few essential features and creates messier partition tables. 
>
> -- 
> Jon Portnoy
> avenj/irc.freenode.net

what do you mean by "messier partition tables" ?

-- 
Camille Huot - <cam@cameuh.net>
direct contact on #igoan at irc.freenode.net
public key available at http://pgp.mit.edu/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[matt c]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Portnoy" <avenj@gentoo.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

> This has come up in the past; the verdict has always been that cfdisk
> lacks a few essential features and creates messier partition tables.
> Additionally, our fdisk instructions are verbose and informative enough
> that even total newbies have been able to figure it out (and probably
> learned something useful in the process).

I don't think it necessarily creates messier partition tables - it is just
much more sensitive to poorly created /messy partition tables - you might be
in the process of trying to fix a foobar'd table and cfdisk will shudder,
twitch, and die - fdisk will chug along merrily and let you do what you
wish.

The real issue is features - fdisk is not that much less "user friendly"
than cfdisk, and why include two partition programs when one is enough and
does the job? If someone wants it - let them emerge it.. ;-)

Matt



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Svyatogor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 19 August 2003 18:29, matt c wrote:
>
> The real issue is features - fdisk is not that much less "user friendly"
> than cfdisk, and why include two partition programs when one is enough and
> does the job? If someone wants it - let them emerge it.. ;-)

I've been told that both of them are on LiveCD anyway. So the issue is which 
one do we explain in the Installation Guide. Let's look at it this way. Does 
cfdisk miss any feature required for installtion? I don't think so. So it 
would be much nicer to the user to explain him how to use cfdisk - an easy 
tool. If, however, there is work he wonts to do with fdisk - fair enough 
noone forbids it.

- -- 
Let the Force be with us!
Sergey Kuleshov
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/Qkw0bYNN+aDJgscRAv1IAKDNYFmj9r8KgWR45mnVa1jHcYHsjQCfd38E
XiU6E/Y1d+zt16AFHksNu8A=
=rQlt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[foser]

On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 18:11, Svyatogor wrote:
> I've been told that both of them are on LiveCD anyway. So the issue is which 
> one do we explain in the Installation Guide. Let's look at it this way. Does 
> cfdisk miss any feature required for installtion? I don't think so. So it 
> would be much nicer to the user to explain him how to use cfdisk - an easy 
> tool. If, however, there is work he wonts to do with fdisk - fair enough 
> noone forbids it.

I don't think that's a good idea, choice is not always good. Explaining
a lot of different ways to achieve the same thing is cluttering the
install docs, those are large enough already. Have the fdisk parts of
the docs not proven by now they are sufficient ?

- foser


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Luke-Jr]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I think the point is, the docs only explain how to do with fdisk what can also 
be done with cfdisk and cfdisk is easier to use. Might as well explain cfdisk 
and if someone wants to use fdisk, they should already know how anyway.

On Tuesday 19 August 2003 04:18 pm, foser wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 18:11, Svyatogor wrote:
> > I've been told that both of them are on LiveCD anyway. So the issue is
> > which one do we explain in the Installation Guide. Let's look at it this
> > way. Does cfdisk miss any feature required for installtion? I don't think
> > so. So it would be much nicer to the user to explain him how to use
> > cfdisk - an easy tool. If, however, there is work he wonts to do with
> > fdisk - fair enough noone forbids it.
>
> I don't think that's a good idea, choice is not always good. Explaining
> a lot of different ways to achieve the same thing is cluttering the
> install docs, those are large enough already. Have the fdisk parts of
> the docs not proven by now they are sufficient ?
>
> - foser
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/QsvtZl/BHdU+lYMRAnlkAJ9weBBk1E50ABOmqTK3KScvtALtowCgixz/
370N5KnMN5k+QsXqBeuUpe8=
=Ur5C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[donnie berkholz]

On Tuesday 19 August 2003 20:16, Luke-Jr wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 August 2003 04:18 pm, foser wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 18:11, Svyatogor wrote:
> > > I've been told that both of them are on LiveCD anyway. So the issue is
> > > which one do we explain in the Installation Guide. Let's look at it
> > > this way. Does cfdisk miss any feature required for installtion? I
> > > don't think so. So it would be much nicer to the user to explain him
> > > how to use cfdisk - an easy tool. If, however, there is work he wonts
> > > to do with fdisk - fair enough noone forbids it.
> >
> > I don't think that's a good idea, choice is not always good. Explaining
> > a lot of different ways to achieve the same thing is cluttering the
> > install docs, those are large enough already. Have the fdisk parts of
> > the docs not proven by now they are sufficient ?
> >
> > - foser
>
> I think the point is, the docs only explain how to do with fdisk what can
> also be done with cfdisk and cfdisk is easier to use. Might as well explain
> cfdisk and if someone wants to use fdisk, they should already know how
> anyway.

I'm pretty sure it was cfdisk that was documented in the installation guide 
when I installed Gentoo initially, and for the reasons earlier mentioned re 
sloppiness etc it was later changed to fdisk. Foser seems to imply it was 
also fdisk earlier at some point too, so apparently cfdisk was just 
documented for a short time. I personally would recommend cfdisk in the 
install guide, and link to a quickie guide of fdisk. My idea is to make the 
install as easy as possible, and cfdisk is significantly easier to use and 
more intuitive than fdisk (for me and most people I've talked with about 
this, at least).


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Sven Vermeulen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1587 bytes --]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:52:17PM -0500, donnie berkholz wrote:
> I'm pretty sure it was cfdisk that was documented in the installation guide 
> when I installed Gentoo initially, and for the reasons earlier mentioned re 
> sloppiness etc it was later changed to fdisk. Foser seems to imply it was 
> also fdisk earlier at some point too, so apparently cfdisk was just 
> documented for a short time. I personally would recommend cfdisk in the 
> install guide, and link to a quickie guide of fdisk. My idea is to make the 
> install as easy as possible, and cfdisk is significantly easier to use and 
> more intuitive than fdisk (for me and most people I've talked with about 
> this, at least).

I have issued a new GLEP regarding the installation manual [1] in which there
is room to provide the user with information about all possible partitioning
ways if we want to. However, even if the GLEP is accepted without clashes
it'll still be a while before the Installation Chapter is finished.

I hope that the GLEP can shut down this discussion and we can mark the bug as
"LATER". I'm reluctant in changing the installation guide if there is a
chance that we are repeating history (i.e. cfdisk showing up to be
troublesome afterall).

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

PS Discussions about this GLEP should be on gentoo-doc, it is purely
documentation related, and far from all documentation developers are on -dev.
I'll start a thread about this GLEP in a minute.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0013.html
-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Stewart Honsberger]

Luke-Jr wrote:
> I think the point is, the docs only explain how to do with fdisk what can also 
> be done with cfdisk and cfdisk is easier to use. Might as well explain cfdisk 
> and if someone wants to use fdisk, they should already know how anyway.

I'm noticing the start of a slippery slope, here.

Gentoo's installation is great because it is simple, elegant, and
powerful. It's not cluttered with every "user-friendly" (read: attempt
at idiot-proof) tool known to man.

Gentoo sets a bar at a certain height, and expects users to acheive that
height in order to get their system off the ground. How many times are
we going to lower the bar? As with every "user-friendly" system,
eventually along comes a better idiot.

fdisk is a simple, standard, powerful partition table editor. I've used
Linux's fdisk to repair botched tables more times than I can count.
Instructions for use can be very simple.

The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems
like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines;

vi <filename> - Load file for editing
/<keyword>  - search
:w - Write file to disk
:q - Quit
Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit

Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit
their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain
(global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality.

I've been seeing a lot of talk, even since the day I first wandered into
Gentoo's user support areas (IRC, forums, mailing lists) about
'graphical installation front-ends', install scripts, etc.

Gentoo has always been a great tool for getting users accustomed to
their system from the inside out. Do we want to remain that way, or do
we want to become "Just Another (Half-Assed) User-Friendly Linux
Distro"? The likes of RedHat, Mandrake, and SuSE have fully graphical
installation utilities that make the Windows install look complicated;
five clicks and an hour later you're staring at your gorgeous KDE
desktop. If we're going to aim towards user-friendlines on installation,
we're already several years behind right out of the starting gate. Can
we possibly compete with that? (Not to mention their respective
corporate funding)

I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if
you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those
boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues
that are raised weekly on this list. ;>

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
http://blackdeath.snerk.org/
"Capitalists, by nature, organize to protect themselves.
-- Geeks, by nature, resist organizaion."


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Patrick Kursawe]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 828 bytes --]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 01:36:29AM -0400, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
 
> The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems
> like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines;
> 
> vi <filename> - Load file for editing
> /<keyword>  - search
> :w - Write file to disk
> :q - Quit
> Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit
> 
> Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit
> their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain
> (global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality.

The commands you just noticed are enough to load, search and write
a file. But you don't tell how to edit, or how to get into the
right mode for entering the commands after editing :-)

SCNR,

Patrick

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Sven Vermeulen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 01:36:29AM -0400, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
> I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if
> you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those
> boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues
> that are raised weekly on this list. ;>

You can't say that "this is how friendly we will become" since friendlyness
(and userfriendlyness) are subjective terms. However, I totally agree if you
set out that, for instance, after installing Gentoo, the average user should
be able to
	- create and modify partition tables
	- configure a kernel
	- ...

This is not talking about friendlyness, but about end terms (cf. courses on
highschools and universities).

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Luke-Jr]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 21 August 2003 05:36 am, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
> Gentoo's installation is great because it is simple, elegant, and
> powerful. It's not cluttered with every "user-friendly" (read: attempt
> at idiot-proof) tool known to man.

No, but tools should be obvious to the user when they can be without losing 
any functionality. Nano, for example, makes itself quite obvious how to use 
and is not, AFAIK, explained anywhere in the manual. cfdisk is obvious in the 
same way. As far as the manual goes, neither nano nor cfdisk lack any needed 
functionality.

> Gentoo sets a bar at a certain height, and expects users to acheive that
> height in order to get their system off the ground. How many times are
> we going to lower the bar? As with every "user-friendly" system,
> eventually along comes a better idiot.

InGen itself is designed to make even someone who has never used a computer 
before able to install Gentoo. There could then be a problem with having 
idiots using Gentoo, but I'm sure something can be found to keep them 
seperate from "real" users.

> fdisk is a simple, standard, powerful partition table editor. I've used
> Linux's fdisk to repair botched tables more times than I can count.
> Instructions for use can be very simple.

Instructions for fdisk can be simple, as opposed to not really needing 
instructions for cfdisk at all... I'm not saying exclude fdisk (it can't be 
that big), but there's no reason to use it by default (eg in the manual).

> The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems
> like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines;
>
> vi <filename> - Load file for editing
> /<keyword>  - search
>
> :w - Write file to disk
> :q - Quit
>
> Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit
>
> Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit
> their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain
> (global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality.

I don't see anything in those *4* lines explaining how to enter data (eg 'i' 
or 'a'), but like fdisk, vi would require explaining how to use it whereas 
nano is obvious, so it should be includes, but not in the manual.

> I've been seeing a lot of talk, even since the day I first wandered into
> Gentoo's user support areas (IRC, forums, mailing lists) about
> 'graphical installation front-ends', install scripts, etc.
>
> Gentoo has always been a great tool for getting users accustomed to
> their system from the inside out. Do we want to remain that way, or do
> we want to become "Just Another (Half-Assed) User-Friendly Linux
> Distro"? The likes of RedHat, Mandrake, and SuSE have fully graphical
> installation utilities that make the Windows install look complicated;
> five clicks and an hour later you're staring at your gorgeous KDE
> desktop. If we're going to aim towards user-friendlines on installation,
> we're already several years behind right out of the starting gate. Can
> we possibly compete with that? (Not to mention their respective
> corporate funding)

Of course we can. Gentoo can be for everyone at the same time. There is no 
reason we need to get rid of the manual/stages to include a GUI. InGen helps 
with this by making the GUI too simple for most "real" users to like, 
therefore most (all?) current users will continue to use the manual 
installation, as well as new experienced users.

> I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if
> you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those
> boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues
> that are raised weekly on this list. ;>

I agree we may need to keep the "idiot" and "real user" communities seperate, 
but there's no reason both cannot exist.
- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/RMooZl/BHdU+lYMRAo/MAJ9haBE3CrBzxrU9njN7ImY5nc4+PgCeOvsx
g+YL+de5LOyPYJ6x5Tn47nA=
=oYSa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Stewart Honsberger]

Luke-Jr wrote:

> No, but tools should be obvious to the user when they can be without losing 
> any functionality. Nano, for example, makes itself quite obvious how to use 
> and is not, AFAIK, explained anywhere in the manual. cfdisk is obvious in the 
> same way. As far as the manual goes, neither nano nor cfdisk lack any needed 
> functionality.

I'm not saying Nano shouldn't be included by any means. As for cfdisk,
it's less standard (read: common) than fdisk, and questions have been
raised about its functionality.

I've repaird literally thousands of partition tables with fdisk (the
same one, if only prior versions going back several years that ships on
the Gentoo install CD) and never encountered a problem. Why not stick
with something that takes minutes to learn, is standard, and proven
reliable?

>>fdisk is a simple, standard, powerful partition table editor. I've used
>>Linux's fdisk to repair botched tables more times than I can count.
>>Instructions for use can be very simple.
> 
> Instructions for fdisk can be simple, as opposed to not really needing 
> instructions for cfdisk at all... I'm not saying exclude fdisk (it can't be 
> that big), but there's no reason to use it by default (eg in the manual).

Including alternate tools for every part of the installation, especially
when including tools that are not industry / POSIX standard tools, is
contributing to bloat.

Here's an idea; what about having a standard set of tools on the minimal
install CD, and only including duplicate functionality / "user friendly"
tools, scripts, menus, and installation GUIs on the larger CD that comes
with Stage3? Why are newbie users installing from Stage1 if they can't
even use vi or fdisk anyways?

Perhaps one of those lines could include the notion of "Advanced
installation from the ground up" or "hand-holding from Stage3 with the
option of using Stage1 if you're so inclined".

>>The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems
>>like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines;
>>
1 - >>vi <filename> - Load file for editing
2 - >>/<keyword>  - search
>>
3 - >>:w - Write file to disk
4 - >>:q - Quit
>>
5 - >>Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit
>>
>>Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit
>>their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain
>>(global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality.
> 
> I don't see anything in those *4* lines explaining how to enter data (eg 'i' 

Five lines. A sixth could be added that reads along the lines of;

Press 'i' to enter insert / edit mode, press Esc to return to command mode.

(Word wrap notwithstanding)

> or 'a'), but like fdisk, vi would require explaining how to use it whereas 
> nano is obvious, so it should be includes, but not in the manual.

That's my point - how much "obvious" stuff are we going to include in
the installation procedure of a self-proclaimed "advanced user"
distribution?

As for the installation manual, it should perhaps contian pointers to
instruct people how to reference the help / manual pages for these
respective applications. In fdisk, for example, the default prompt urges
you to press '?' for help. How much more obvious can it get?

>>I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if
>>you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those
>>boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues
>>that are raised weekly on this list. ;>
> 
> I agree we may need to keep the "idiot" and "real user" communities seperate, 
> but there's no reason both cannot exist.

If we keep the entry bar high, we'll produce a more educated Linux user
community, and the forums, IRC channels and Bugzilla will be less
clogged with FAQs and inanities. (Read: Developer time better spent).

Gentoo is in a great position to teach users to work with standard
tools, rather than looking for the easy-out two-click brainless method
emplored by 'other' OSs and distributions. We can teach users to look
through documentation and search engines and try to answer their own
questions before they come looking for hand holding.

As I said before, this is a slippery slope. The more user-friendly you
make a tool, the more dumbed down people will want it. We're way behind
the likes of RedHat, Mandrake and SuSE in that regard and trying to
catch up would only put is in the league of so many other mediochre
distributions who've tried and failed.

If people want an idiot-proof install, I tell them to investigate
RedHat. I won't reccomend Gentoo to a person who can barely fudge their
way through a Windows installation because it's unfair to them and the
user community. People offering support in #Gentoo shouldn't have to
answer 50 daily "Where is my C: drive?" questions.

Beisdes that; if our installation procedure forces people to learn (and
more importantly; learn how to learn), we'll find ourselves with a swath
of qualified individuals from whom to select as new developers.

Right now the install.txt can be practically followed to the letter to
get a person up and running with a Gentoo system. I know; I've done it
myself; executed each command in sequence until eventually I was booted
to a login prompt and rearing to go. Consider how many people can't
understand this procedure and tell us on a daily basis how difficult
Gentoo is to install!

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
Gentoo Developer
http://www.snerk.org/


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[foser]

On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 03:16, Luke-Jr wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I think the point is, the docs only explain how to do with fdisk what can also 
> be done with cfdisk and cfdisk is easier to use. Might as well explain cfdisk 
> and if someone wants to use fdisk, they should already know how anyway.

Well my point was, why change a working formula. It works. That's it. No
need to add extra portions or change whole parts, it gets confusing when
you do an install more often than once a year.

- foser


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Salze]

Hi,

On Die, 2003-08-19 at 18:11, Svyatogor wrote:

> [...] So it 
> would be much nicer to the user to explain him how to use cfdisk - an easy 
> tool.

I found fdisk much easier to understand when I switched to linux - just
my 2 cent of course. I just want to say that it's not like everybody
finds cfdisk easier to use/understand.

bye
Salze


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Lloyd D Budd]

In an attempt not to write anything of value, I recall the shock and
horror when cfdisk was not included in redhat 7.2 (end of 2001?):

$ rpm -q --changelog util-linux |grep cfdisk
- Don't include cfdisk, since it appears to be an even bigger pile of junk than fdisk? :)






--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Jason Wever]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 780 bytes --]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:27:19 +0300
Svyatogor <svyatogor@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hello!
> 
> The new x86 Installation guide is featuring fdisk as a tool for
> partitioning hard drives. I think it's not a best choice and propose to
> replace it with cfdisk, which (AFAIK) is also on the installtion CDs. I
> filed a bug on this topic, where I listed all my arguments.
> 
> Any comment is welcomed!

My vote would be for parted instead of either of these.  fdisk can be
buggy to the point of being unusable on sparc where parted works with no
problems in the same scenario.  

Granted it's got a funky syntax but it seems to do the right
thing, and plus it's got resizing support (though I don't recommend that
for the install guide).

My $0.02

-- 
Jason Wever
Gentoo/Sparc Team Lead

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Martin, Stephen]

Jason Wever wrote:

> My vote would be for parted instead of either of these.  
> Granted it's got a funky syntax but it seems to do the right
> thing, and plus it's got resizing support (though I don't recommend that
> for the install guide).

Yeah, but it doesn't support LVM partitions, and if you really want to 
be resizing in the future, LVM is definitely the way to go.

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Martin, Stephen]

Martin, Stephen wrote:
> Yeah, but it doesn't support LVM partitions, and if you really want to 
> be resizing in the future, LVM is definitely the way to go.

Woops, it does support LVM.  I stand corrected.

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Georgi Georgiev]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1212 bytes --]

On 22/08/2003 at 15:57:43(-0400), Jason Wever used 1.1K just to say:
> My vote would be for parted instead of either of these.  fdisk can be
> buggy to the point of being unusable on sparc where parted works with no
> problems in the same scenario.  

I few points I have against parted:

(parted) mkpart p 2000
End? .... how do I say "the end of the disk" here

I see that "print" would give us the size of the disk but the interface of
parted is frustrating.

fdisk has default values for start and end, pointing at the start and end of
free space -- very useful.

It is easier to create a 1G partition with fdisk using the "+1G" syntax. Parted
requires the starting and ending "megabyte".

It is easy to make a mistake with parted mostly because it *commits* *changes*
*immediately*. There is no undo.

Lastly I am not a sparc user. If parted is better for the sparc, I guess it
would be better to have parted there, but please, don't screw the x86 CDs.

-- 
 /   Georgi Georgiev    / Possessions increase to fill the space        /
\     chutz@gg3.net    \  available for their storage. -- Ryan         \
 /  +81(90)6266-1163    /                                               /

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Replacing fdisk with cfdisk in

[Sven Vermeulen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 912 bytes --]

On Sat, Aug 23, 2003 at 12:46:04PM +0900, Georgi Georgiev wrote:
> Lastly I am not a sparc user. If parted is better for the sparc, I guess it
> would be better to have parted there, but please, don't screw the x86 CDs.

The best solution imho is to provide our users with all possible scenario's.
In our current installation guide, this is almost impossible due to limited
size (we can't allow the current installation guide to grow further).
However, we're working on a Gentoo Handbook in which it should be possible to
provide our users with several implementations.

Kinda like
	2. Partitioning
	2.1	Partitioning with fdisk
	2.2	Partitioning with cfdisk
	2.3	Partitioning with parted

Using this scheme, no tool is favoured above the other (except when you say
that "fdisk" is listed before "cfdisk" -- bad luck :) 

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]