From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19283 invoked by uid 1002); 15 Jul 2003 15:24:27 -0000 Mailing-List: contact gentoo-dev-help@gentoo.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Received: (qmail 1369 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2003 15:24:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3F141CB1.70704@gentoo.org> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:24:33 -0400 From: Brad Laue User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-core@gentoo.org Cc: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org References: <20030715094234.6f6f2636.zhen@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <20030715094234.6f6f2636.zhen@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo part IIa. X-Archives-Salt: f1a01d57-cefa-44d8-9384-a588ee307a38 X-Archives-Hash: c11d552e17134662761ea69a8043cce6 John Davis wrote: > Good day everyone: First, I would like to thank all of those who have > participated in this conversation, and lambaste those who have > decided to start a flame war. In order for *anything* to get figured > out, it is the latter that need time to discuss all avenues > rationally. Fair enough. ;) > > Step back for a minute and recognize the ramifications of those > numbers. The product that we baby and work on is used by over a > _quarter of a million_ people. Over a _quarter of a million_ people > rely on our QA procedure for stable packages, our security, our > openness. No matter what your political philosophy, this fact should > awe you. I think this is the crux of all our concern, all management and organisational decisions revolve around QA, among other primary concerns like architecture and so on. My opinion is that QA procedures can be created without forming a government of sorts, or creating a political landscape. There are development cultures which succesfully separate the issues surrounding architecture, financing and future directions within the distribution from the QA process, by placing it on the outskirts of 'governance', and I do think we would be wise to do the same. > So how can me still deliver the same quality product to all of these > people? Organization, rules, and voting, to name a few. I referenced > Debian because they have an exceptional model that is in place and > working. Yes, I know that Debian is not bleeding edge and their > releases take forever. Think though, have you ever heard a complaint > about Debian's stability, not only in Debian Linux, but in their > management as well? Debian may be stable, but Woody's sheer age really does indicate that something is wrong with their development model. I don't imagine suggesting a faster paced release model to their core developers would be met with much openness, nor would it be put to a vote. FreeBSD and RedHat, to name two, have live package build systems (ports/rawhide respectively) and cut a release from these every four months on the dot with impeccable QA. I don't think I could suggest such a thing to Debian developers without being laughed out of the discussion. Another member of the previous thread mentioned the Linux kernel, if briefly. Look at how well it works in its development model. A core group of members make decisions as to where the kernel will be in 1, 5, 10 years, and the rest of the process looks, to the outside world, almost entirely haphazard. There is no need for constitutions or elections or a legal department, and yet Linux is thriving and growing at an extraordinary rate. And it has few enough QA problems that fortune 100 corporations use it! It is my contention that the development culture *creates* the product. I believe Debian is what it is now because of the way it is managed, and Linux is what it is now because of the way *it* is managed. If I seem staunchly opposed to introducing Debian concepts to Gentoo, it's because I am. ;) My intention though, is not to attempt to close the discussion. If through the process an outcome can be reached which seems reasonable to all sides, all the better. Cheers, Brad -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list