From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22498 invoked by uid 1002); 15 Jul 2003 04:49:35 -0000 Mailing-List: contact gentoo-dev-help@gentoo.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Received: (qmail 32743 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2003 04:49:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3F138938.8030105@gentoo.org> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:55:20 -0400 From: Kumba Reply-To: kumba@gentoo.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org References: <20030714214621.33b75fbd.zhen@gentoo.org> <20030714220238.B12388@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> <20030714230801.6688ba3f.zhen@gentoo.org> <20030714231534.C12388@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030714231534.C12388@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo part II. X-Archives-Salt: d51d6bda-6e7e-48b5-b79b-4b17f3104566 X-Archives-Hash: 849842fa0746eb7b314f12d244a9567a splite wrote: > No flaming intended. As it happens, I read your last paragraph very > carefully, hoping to see a big "April Fool!" at the end. > > Sorry if my style offended you, but I wasn't aware that "intellectual" > meant "oblivious to satire." So let me be direct: > > The stuff you're proposing is what's killing Debian, and steered me away > from it in the first place. I suspect I'm not the only one. > > Here are some serious, intellectual questions (note the scholarly > Roman numerals): > > I. Wouldn't developer's time be better spent _developing_ instead of reading > minutes, making motions, and voting? > > II. Wouldn't users's time be better spent _using_ Gentoo to get some actual > work done instead of reading proposed amendments and lobbying for new > rules? > > As a user and potential developer, I certainly don't have time for that > kind of shit. If I want politics, I'll watch C-SPAN or run for city > council. > IMHO, Politics will always exist, even in an organization like Gentoo. You raise several good points, I admit that, but don't you think that your "satire" came off a little bit harsh in your original post? Satire can be good satire or bad satire. It's all about how you phrase it. All the things zhen proposed were merely proposals. They are not anything concrete or set in stone. It is probable that any proposals made by zhen may have all live through debate to see the light of day, or all may be consigned to bitrot in /dev/null. It is also probable that some (but not all) of his proposals may survive. Who knows? What matters is they were just that -- Proposals. Ideas. Because of the fact that they were just proposals, I think the way you made your point was perhaps a bit harsh, and a bit uneccessary. There are better ways to say things w/o satiraclly picking apart every single sentence to expose any possible flaws. You could have been much more polite in stating your belief of why Gentoo should steer clear of such ideas to avoid becoming the next Debian. > Good, I hate flamewars. > > If by "grow up", you mean, "saddle myself and others with lots of > arbitrary rules in lieu of doing useful work", then no thanks. > > And here I thought I was being proactive. Or should I wait until the first > Gentoo Continental Congress and submit my concerns as a rider to an > appropriations bill? Shoot, I'm satirising again, aren't I? > > Seriously, I don't doubt your good intentions, but IMO, you're taking > Gentoo way _too_ seriously. Gentoo is fun and useful. Rules and politics > can only make it less so. > You're absolutely right on several things here. Flamewars suck, so lets not turn this discussion into one. Second, Gentoo is indeed very fun. I was drawn to Gentoo because of the community atmosphere, and because developers were friendly to users. Even to users who are using Gentoo as their very first Gentoo install. This alone shows the vastly different attitude within Gentoo when compared to other distributions and other OSS OSes. I don't see Gentoo becoming heavily politicized. But I do feel Gentoo needs better structuring as an organization. Several of the ideas proposed by zhen could very well assist that. I'm quite sure if any of his proposals are found to be incompatible with how Gentoo structures itself, they will be summarily tossed aside and forgotten in the annals of time. No need to lash out with such ferocity at mere concepts, ideas that haven't even been discussed/debated yet. Simply state your opinion of said ideas, and back them up with proper logical reasoning. That is the most any of us can hope to do. --Kumba -- "Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list