From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IAYeQ-0003Ww-NB for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:02:43 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6GM11dA001935; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:01:01 GMT Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6GLvecU028588 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:57:40 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D1464F66 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:57:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: 0.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.267 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.266, BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqxnjkm+U9WN for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:57:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A720C64416 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:57:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id i24so21664ugd for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=mu+KDkXeRe2Ik5X1ITIIZ9wvl59esNrYY2LlLa7siJwnjfcguClgJnfVQg/fYuZejiXloYkKxY+VvTZcJdes/lKn4ggz7JL+M7V4hcRBGDEMNj8Yb8FwleyofSRFZueXVuZrb2cMOWjwTREppvDjlMtlbKD4QMnMkKrJJ8OFA0U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=e4KaY/TDSjFBDaVl7DGINneMigcO9IyfsujLO9lwD9yx/5jgRSOk6rtTeLftMGm3s9ZmmvKwg4B/xPOjcs2TmmvgerZq9XD9Jo+bM8gSdOxudKfbRzQ1J4YOeadHGggLkaoX0ankc3dlmRUHulbrXLrDpQvijUqn6L1Ky3oxL4M= Received: by 10.78.149.15 with SMTP id w15mr1284266hud.1184623056198; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.48.18 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2bd962720707161457m6d18d6f2ie89826858391e443@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:57:36 -0400 From: "Ryan Reich" To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Archives-Salt: 9ea8d259-2e2b-437b-aa6c-fc79559b9fb0 X-Archives-Hash: 5baa50b3e393b6b46b3319734e92d6ae Mike Doty wrote: >All- > >We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only >devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post. devs who moderate in >bad posts will be subject to moderation themselves. in addition the >gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently becomes. > there is no requirement to be on this new list. > >This will probably remove the need for -core(everything gets leaked out anyway) >but that's a path to cross later. > >We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now would be >the time. > >--taco As a user rather than a dev I waited to respond to this until I saw some of the discussion, since I'm new to Gentoo culture. Most opinion seems to have been extremely negative, along the lines of "This will kill Gentoo because it will alienate the users", together with some very defensive responses from supporters, and a few who don't seem to care at all. I was also originally quite negative about it, but rereading the statement I have come to see some merits in the general idea. Developers (who are required to read the list and for whose continued collaboration and productivity it exists) should have the ability to banish non-developers who abuse their subscriptions to make technical discussions personal. This is only reasonable. However, moderating this list will just place an obstacle in the path of casual user participation and foster a sense of entitlement among the more resentful developers (those would be the ones making claims that Gentoo is not about what devs can do for the users, but merely about everyone serving their own interests). So a better solution would be to adopt the proposal for a developer-moderated blacklist. However, if such powers are expected to be exercised routinely, simply issuing it carte blanche would be ignoring a much larger issue having to do with the quality of the developer community (not to be confused with the larger developer-user community) itself. A good example of a list which follows this sort of policy, and which I also read (skim), is the linux-kernel mailing list, which I consider to be perhaps the optimal open-source developer's list. It has high volume, which people here (and there) sometimes dislike, but that's because they track contributions on the list rather than through Bugzilla, so ignore that aspect. The point is that each and every conversation is on-topic, competent, technical, and very patiently conducted. Even when one developer makes strong (sometimes very strong) remarks it is, as far as I have observed, never met in kind. They bury their egos for the sake of the project, because they are all good at what they do, respected for it, and get enough gratification from their work that they don't need to seek cheap thrills through mailing-list flamewars (indeed, that would detract from their job satisfaction). Stupid, inflammatory, and provocative letters are rarely answered and never develop into flamewars, because no one dignifies them with responses. On very rare occasions I have seen a frivolous conversation (one about some penguin game comes to mind), which reached a surprising saturation before one of the lead developers threatened excommunication to the participants. This is the ONLY time I have ever seen the blacklist powers explicitly exercised, and it completely ended the idiocy. Power exercised with extreme caution will hit twice as hard when it finally comes, because they'll know you mean it. I mention this because it is a pretty high standard, but is in my opinion just about the least you can really expect of a mailing list for a volunteer software development project. If this list degenerates into regular flamewars, it is not the fault of the users; there will always be idiots, but hopefully these people are too self-centered to think of contributing to something like Gentoo. Flamewars are the fault of the developers who participate in them, though no one will like to hear me say this. It's a developer's list and the flamewars wouldn't go anywhere if only a small cabal of lusers stoked them. And from what I've said above, having observed it in the LKML, if developers are doing this it's because they don't respect their work enough, in which case, why do they continue developing? But I've noticed three at least quitting since this discussion started, so maybe they don't. So before you go and moderate the list in any form, think about why at least a few of your number are so immature. Maybe I'm wrong, and they do like their work, but at the very least you should start by making a serious attempt to reform the mailing list culture by pure social pressure before actually implementing a moderation scheme. After all, it's true that users are granted access to this list as a privilege: the privilege of putting in their two cents and thereby contributing to a project that takes itself as seriously as the users apparently take it. The only reason it's desirable to the developers is that it helps them do their job. So impeding the users should (and will) be the last thing this list ever does. -- Ryan Reich ryan.reich@gmail.com -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list