[gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Stuart Herbert]

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Hi everyone,

I'm just doing a quick poll to get some feedback for an ebuild I'm working on.

Where do you think web applications should be installed?

1) $(HTDOCS)/<app-name>/
2) /usr/webapps/<app-name>/
3) a/n/other/?

I don't think that ebuilds should be installing applications under the HTDOCS 
root.  For a start, as we add more web servers, working out where HTDOCS is 
could prove impossible (especially if you run two or more web servers 
simultaneously!)  There's also the problem that having the app installed 
under HTDOCS isn't very friendly to boxes hosting multiple sites.

I'd prefer having ebuilds put applications under a central location, and I'm 
proposing that we use /usr/webapps for this (unless someone has a better 
suggestion).  Then, it's just a simple alias directive to make an app 
available under Apache.

While I'm at it, I'm proposing that we create a new set of 'web-XXX' groups 
for holding web applications.  For example, wiki engines would go under 
'web-wiki', bulletin boards under 'web-forums', and so on.  This'd make it 
much easier for users to find these packages.

Feedback urgently sought.

Best regards,
Stu
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Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Alvaro Figueroa Cabezas]

On Jul 23 15:12, Stuart Herbert wrote:
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> Where do you think web applications should be installed?

FHS still doesn't cover this issue, but I think that gentoo should
comply with the things that we hope (based on mailing list reading) will
be submited to the next version of the FHS.

This two threads kinda cover the issue, aldo I really haven't spent
enought time swiming on the archives.

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=106140&forum_id=3128
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=106137&forum_id=3128

As personal experience, I have a couple of (informal) WebGUI packages
that put the "original" pages on one place (that has nothing to do with
the FHS :), and them every user that wan't to use those pages copy them
where they are to be served, makes some small configuration changes[0],
and serve them. Perhaps this idea could be polish a bit to comply with
the FHS and get adopted by gentoo?

[0] I had a dialog inteface for it, but that's OT

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Max Kalika]

Quoting Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>:

> Where do you think web applications should be installed?
> 
> 3) a/n/other/?

Personally, I like /usr/share/webapps.  One question though.  Why do all
ebuilds currently insist on making files owned by the web user (apache)?
Seems very wrong to me as the apache user is able to write to the
applications.  It seems just like giving ownership to a regular user
account  for other applications.

> While I'm at it, I'm proposing that we create a new set of 'web-XXX' 
> groups for holding web applications.  For example, wiki engines would go 
> under 'web-wiki', bulletin boards under 'web-forums', and so on.  This'd 
> make it much easier for users to find these packages.

I like it!

---max kalika
--max@lsit.ucsb.edu
-lsit systems administrator

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Don Seiler]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 07:29:02AM -0700, Max Kalika wrote:
> One question though.  Why do all
> ebuilds currently insist on making files owned by the web user (apache)?

Probably because the web user will need to be able to write to those
directories.  So rather than grant write permissions to the entire users
group I would prefer having apache own them.

Don.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Stuart Herbert]

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Hi Max,

On Wednesday 23 July 2003 3:29 pm, Max Kalika wrote:
> Personally, I like /usr/share/webapps.  

That's a good suggestion ;-)

> One question though.  Why do all
> ebuilds currently insist on making files owned by the web user (apache)?
> Seems very wrong to me as the apache user is able to write to the
> applications.  It seems just like giving ownership to a regular user
> account  for other applications.

Because most web apps are badly written, and rely on write access to 
directories on the machine.  Sorry - I just can't think of a polite way to 
put that ;-)

As an interesting aside, because we run apache under the apache user (rather 
than a nobody user), it'll make the business of supporting multiple web 
servers quite a mess.  I mean, if you install tikiwiki, which user should own 
it?!?

> > While I'm at it, I'm proposing that we create a new set of 'web-XXX'
> > groups for holding web applications.  For example, wiki engines would go
> > under 'web-wiki', bulletin boards under 'web-forums', and so on.  This'd
> > make it much easier for users to find these packages.
>
> I like it!

I read your post about having proposed this before, but with no real response.  
Tell you what - if no-one else sends through any feedback, I guess no-one 
would really notice if we went ahead and just did this? ;-)

Best regards,
Stu
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Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Max Kalika]

Quoting Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>:

>> One question though.  Why do all
>> ebuilds currently insist on making files owned by the web user (apache)?
>> Seems very wrong to me as the apache user is able to write to the
>> applications.  It seems just like giving ownership to a regular user
>> account  for other applications.
> 
> Because most web apps are badly written, and rely on write access to 
> directories on the machine.  Sorry - I just can't think of a polite way
> to  put that ;-)

Not all applications.  The ones I've been dealing with work perfectly well
having all the files owned by root.  I'm speaking of the entire Horde suite
(and not just because I'm on the Horde team ;-)), phpMyAdmin, mailman, etc.
I would really urge to only make the files owned by the web user when
absolutely necessary.

> As an interesting aside, because we run apache under the apache user
> (rather  than a nobody user), it'll make the business of supporting
> multiple web  servers quite a mess.  I mean, if you install tikiwiki,
> which user should own  it?!?

I'd say we have to pick a de-facto web server and install all apps based on
that.  If a user wants a webserver other than apache, it is really easy to
chown all the files (if that is all that has to be done).  And if an
application doesn't require being owned by the web user, things are even
easier.  The only thing that has to be done is to do a configuration block
similar to how apache needs it, and that can eventually be worked into that
eclass I posted earlier -- if that is the way we want to go.

> I read your post about having proposed this before, but with no real
> response.   Tell you what - if no-one else sends through any feedback, I
> guess no-one  would really notice if we went ahead and just did this? ;-)

:-)  I'll wait a day or so.  If you want to discuss this further, catch me
on irc (alkern).

--mk

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Alvaro Figueroa Cabezas]

On Jul 23 07:54, Max Kalika wrote:

> Not all applications.  The ones I've been dealing with work perfectly well
> having all the files owned by root.

But the configuration files must be changed so that the aplication knows
to what DB pluggin to use, and where are its DB's and stuff. Acording to
the FHS, things that go under /usr are bound to be read only[1]

[1] http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/fhs-4.1.html

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Max Kalika]

Quoting Alvaro Figueroa Cabezas <fede2@fuerzag.ulatina.ac.cr>:

> On Jul 23 07:54, Max Kalika wrote:
> 
>> Not all applications.  The ones I've been dealing with work perfectly
>> well having all the files owned by root.
> 
> But the configuration files must be changed so that the aplication knows
> to what DB pluggin to use, and where are its DB's and stuff. Acording to
> the FHS, things that go under /usr are bound to be read only[1]

Right, so my eclass puts all config files in /etc/webapps, along with an
apache configuration block that gets activated when the user wants.  Like I
said, I've been using it with the Horde suite for a month now (upgrading
cvs snapshot builds).  Horde is very db-heavy and it has been an absolute
breeze to upgrade, and then run dispatch-conf to update the conf files
since they're all protected.

---max kalika
--max@lsit.ucsb.edu
-lsit systems administrator

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Alvaro Figueroa Cabezas]

On Jul 23 09:27, Max Kalika wrote:

> Right, so my eclass puts all config files in /etc/webapps, along with an
> apache configuration block that gets activated when the user wants.

Wow, thats cool. Haven't tried to do that with my horde instalations.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poll: Where should web applications be installed?

[Max Kalika]

Quoting Alvaro Figueroa Cabezas <fede2@fuerzag.ulatina.ac.cr>:

> On Jul 23 09:27, Max Kalika wrote:
> 
>> Right, so my eclass puts all config files in /etc/webapps, along with an
>> apache configuration block that gets activated when the user wants.
> 
> Wow, thats cool. Haven't tried to do that with my horde instalations.

It won't work.  My eclass isn't in portage yet.  Still finalizing it. :-)

---max kalika
--max@lsit.ucsb.edu
-lsit systems administrator

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