[gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

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In this article on chat services used for OSS:

https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/

I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
-project mailing lists).

Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).

Regards,

Dirkjan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Mike Gilbert]

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
>
> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
>
> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or -project mailing lists).
>
> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).

Based on the #server-info channel, it looks like this server was
created by Cynede. Perhaps they have more information.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[desultory]

On 04/29/19 17:04, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
>>
>> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
>>
>> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or -project mailing lists).
>>
>> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> 
> Based on the #server-info channel, it looks like this server was
> created by Cynede. Perhaps they have more information.
> 
> 
Considering the reaction that I got when I asked him, I would advise
against bothering with contacting cynede about it. Specifically, when I
asked on irc the response was serial evasive answers and when I followed
up with e-mail the response mentioned the PR project wiki page (without
actually linking to it) and expressly requested that I never discuss it
with him again, that request was followed up with the same request being
made in a public irc channel, just because I was looking for a straight
answer and consistently not getting one. Also, I was accused of being a
sockpuppet for having asked, despite using my gentoo cloak on freenode
at the time.

As I was eventually able to discover, PR (or at least some members
thereof) describes any site on which the PR project has an account (in
the case of discord this type of account is known as a "server") to be
an "official" communications channel. These "official" communications
channels are not announced when created and do not have projects, even
PR sub-projects to tend to them, nor are they listed among the support
venues are they are evidently not for user support, as they are
evidently intended simply for announcements and such they are merely
listed on the PR project wiki page [PR].

[PR] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Public_Relations

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Michał Górny]

On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> 
> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> 
> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> -project mailing lists).
> 
> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> 

No.  It's just one of those fancy things PR project uses to interact
with the modern cool kids™.

However, I suppose you could have used the word 'official'
in the meaning that of all Discord accounts (?) this one has actually
anything to do with Gentoo.  However, 'official method of communication'
goes beyond that and this is plain wrong.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Cynede]

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On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 23:23 -0400, desultory wrote:
> On 04/29/19 17:04, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org>
> > wrote:
> > > In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> > > 
> > > https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> > > 
> > > I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses
> > > "Discord as an official method of communication". When I
> > > searched, I indeed found https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo.
> > > However, I'd never before heard we were using Discord (and didn't
> > > find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or -project mailing
> > > lists).
> > > 
> > > Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on 
> > > https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> > 
> > Based on the #server-info channel, it looks like this server was
> > created by Cynede. Perhaps they have more information.
> > 
> > 
> Considering the reaction that I got when I asked him, I would advise
> against bothering with contacting cynede about it. Specifically, when
> I
> asked on irc the response was serial evasive answers and when I
> followed
> up with e-mail the response mentioned the PR project wiki page
> (without
> actually linking to it) and expressly requested that I never discuss
> it
> with him again, that request was followed up with the same request
> being
> made in a public irc channel, just because I was looking for a
> straight
> answer and consistently not getting one. Also, I was accused of being
> a
> sockpuppet for having asked, despite using my gentoo cloak on
> freenode
> at the time.
> 
> As I was eventually able to discover, PR (or at least some members
> thereof) describes any site on which the PR project has an account
> (in
> the case of discord this type of account is known as a "server") to
> be
> an "official" communications channel. These "official" communications
> channels are not announced when created and do not have projects,
> even
> PR sub-projects to tend to them, nor are they listed among the
> support
> venues are they are evidently not for user support, as they are
> evidently intended simply for announcements and such they are merely
> listed on the PR project wiki page [PR].
> 
> [PR] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Public_Relations
> 

Hello.

Right, alike reddit, twitter, facebook and other PR channels. It's
"official" because it's controlled by PR Gentoo team, every Gentoo
developer have admin rights, we should have 2+ developers as admins, at
the moment there are 8 developers with admin rights but sure not all of
them are active. It's not not official way of getting support or
developers communication however it's official compared to other Gentoo
servers on discord alike Gentoo facebook is official compared to other
Gentoo facebook groups running by random people. It's writtin in PR
project policy.

I've used to explain it few times to several people including
developers and some of people, even from Gentoo, just aggressively
refuse to accept that. That's why we had conflict there. There are
still people who are not fully agree with each other even inside PR
team or possibly there is just some mess with terms.

I'm sorry but your questions was really different, in case if you want
to discuss PR project policy, how things become "official", who gave
those people those rights, what words should be used and things alike
that I'm really slightly tired from those questions and I'd like those
to be escalated.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 9:05 AM, Cynede wrote:
> Right, alike reddit, twitter, facebook and other PR channels. It's
> "official" because it's controlled by PR Gentoo team,

No, that does not make anything official. Official would mean a place we
would place an announcement ourselves and mostly comes down to our
website and the announce mailing list.

Basically; What is considered an official communication channel should
be analogous to SEC Regulation Fair Disclosure (FD).

Now, that Gentoo developers in some way have anything to do with other
channels is a good thing, but its not an official communication channel
for Gentoo.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 6:04 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 4/30/19 9:05 AM, Cynede wrote:
>> Right, alike reddit, twitter, facebook and other PR channels. It's
>> "official" because it's controlled by PR Gentoo team,
> 
> No, that does not make anything official. Official would mean a place we
> would place an announcement ourselves and mostly comes down to our
> website and the announce mailing list.
> 
> Basically; What is considered an official communication channel should
> be analogous to SEC Regulation Fair Disclosure (FD).
> 
> Now, that Gentoo developers in some way have anything to do with other
> channels is a good thing, but its not an official communication channel
> for Gentoo.
> 

Ok, the above was a bit too compromised. The official communication
channels within the project of course also includes the ways the
developers are expected to work together; i.e also bugzilla and the
various required mailing lists.

Whether IRC is official communication channel is more of an interesting
discussion; as it is not a required medium for developers, but it is
definitely close due to the amount of work that is being done over it.

but from a PR perspective the official communication channels are the
website and mailing list announcements (that for us acts as press releases)

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Mart Raudsepp]

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Ühel kenal päeval, T, 30.04.2019 kell 18:17, kirjutas Kristian
Fiskerstrand:
> On 4/30/19 6:04 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 4/30/19 9:05 AM, Cynede wrote:
> > > Right, alike reddit, twitter, facebook and other PR channels.
> > > It's
> > > "official" because it's controlled by PR Gentoo team,
> > 
> > No, that does not make anything official. Official would mean a
> > place we
> > would place an announcement ourselves and mostly comes down to our
> > website and the announce mailing list.
> > 
> > Basically; What is considered an official communication channel
> > should
> > be analogous to SEC Regulation Fair Disclosure (FD).
> > 
> > Now, that Gentoo developers in some way have anything to do with
> > other
> > channels is a good thing, but its not an official communication
> > channel
> > for Gentoo.
> > 
> 
> Ok, the above was a bit too compromised. The official communication
> channels within the project of course also includes the ways the
> developers are expected to work together; i.e also bugzilla and the
> various required mailing lists.


And who, besides a wrongly informed or at least suboptimal terminology
using Gentoo unrelated website, has claimed that Discord is an official
communication channel?
I seriously doubt some of the other listed distributions over there use
Discord in any seriously official capacity either.
PR page lists it as an official social media account, whatever that
means. Probably what it is - social media under PR admin. Do you
consider facebook as official communication medium too?

> Whether IRC is official communication channel is more of an
> interesting
> discussion; as it is not a required medium for developers, but it is
> definitely close due to the amount of work that is being done over
> it.
> 
> but from a PR perspective the official communication channels are the
> website and mailing list announcements (that for us acts as press
> releases)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 6:55 PM, Mart Raudsepp wrote:
>  Probably what it is - social media under PR admin. Do you
> consider facebook as official communication medium too?

No, Facebook is definitely not an official communication medium. However
you might argue that a given Facebook Page is official if it is
controlled by Gentoo. But this is where you get into semantic discussions.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Alec Warner]

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On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:

> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
>
> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
>
> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> -project mailing lists).
>
> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
>

I'm trying to understand why it matters. Lets assume we decide it is, or is
not. What would you expect the project to do differently?

I feel like the whole thread is trying to debate something that doesn't
really matter, so I'm trying to grasp why we are having this conversation.

-A


>
> Regards,
>
> Dirkjan
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Michał Górny]

On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> 
> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> 
> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> -project mailing lists).
> 
> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> 

I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
that if it's not official, we should close it instead.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 7:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
>>
>> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
>>
>> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
>> as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
>> https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
>> were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
>> -project mailing lists).
>>
>> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
>> https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
>>
> I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
> The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
> rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
> that if it's not official, we should close it instead.

If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
least

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 7:17 PM, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> In this article on chat services used for OSS:
>>
>> https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
>>
>> I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
>> as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
>> https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
>> were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
>> -project mailing lists).
>>
>> Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
>> https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
>>
> I'm trying to understand why it matters. Lets assume we decide it is, or is
> not. What would you expect the project to do differently?
> 
> I feel like the whole thread is trying to debate something that doesn't
> really matter, so I'm trying to grasp why we are having this conversation.
> 
> -A
> 
> 

It matters if things are perceived as official Gentoo and causing a
negative reputation as in the article in this thread. One some level
that actually goes to trademark infringement that should be of interest
to the foundation, but the issue is broader than that.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Michał Górny]

On Tue, 2019-04-30 at 19:20 +0200, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 4/30/19 7:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> > > In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> > > 
> > > https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> > > 
> > > I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> > > as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> > > https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> > > were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> > > -project mailing lists).
> > > 
> > > Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> > > https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> > > 
> > I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
> > The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
> > rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
> > that if it's not official, we should close it instead.
> 
> If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
> least
> 

I suppose the problem boils down to 'perceived by whom'.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-04-30 19:24:45, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-04-30 at 19:20 +0200, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 4/30/19 7:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> > > > In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> > > > 
> > > > https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> > > > 
> > > > I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> > > > as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> > > > https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> > > > were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> > > > -project mailing lists).
> > > > 
> > > > Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> > > > https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> > > > 
> > > I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
> > > The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
> > > rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
> > > that if it's not official, we should close it instead.
> > 
> > If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
> > least
> > 
> 
> I suppose the problem boils down to 'perceived by whom'.
> 

Ya, the claim as official came up a while ago, I thought it was dealt
with.  I'm one of the devs with 'admin' rights it seems, I can change
the description and server invite background (both have official in it).
I'd change the description to something like the following.

Discord server for Gentoo Linux, a free operating system based or Linux or FreeBSD.

Though maybe we should use the language we used in the nitrokey
announcment for how to descript Gentoo :D

It does not look like I have the ability to remove the server entirely,
as was suggested elsewhere.  I don't think that's a good idea in any
case.

One thing that may help is to have multiple levels of control defined.

Official   - as K_F described before, website and email announce lists.
Controled  - controled / moderated by Gentoo pr / comrel
             This would be other email lists / aliases / facebook / etc
unofficial - not activly moderated by Gentoo pr / comrel

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 7:24 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
>>> I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
>>> The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
>>> rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
>>> that if it's not official, we should close it instead.
>> If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
>> least
>>
> I suppose the problem boils down to 'perceived by whom'.

I'd say a reasonable person, which the author of the article doesn't
sound like, but the article doesn't provide sufficient information for
third parties to judge per se.

I guess a more interesting question is why communication is increasingly
fragmented across multiple chat systems; it reminds me of
https://xkcd.com/1810/
-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 4/30/19 7:32 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> One thing that may help is to have multiple levels of control defined.

Indeed, this distinction is interesting.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 07:24:45PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-04-30 at 19:20 +0200, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 4/30/19 7:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> > > > In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> > > > 
> > > > https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> > > > 
> > > > I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> > > > as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> > > > https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> > > > were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> > > > -project mailing lists).
> > > > 
> > > > Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> > > > https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> > > > 
> > > I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
> > > The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
> > > rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
> > > that if it's not official, we should close it instead.
> > 
> > If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
> > least
> > 
> I suppose the problem boils down to 'perceived by whom'.
"What's official" is part of the problem.

The PR wiki page DOES list Discord as one of the official channels,
along with other non-libre Silos.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Public_Relations#Social_silos_and_chat

A better question is: in keeping with social contract, but balancing
that users do want to be on different services, what material should be
on each silo?
- Announcements (copied to multiple locations)
- chat/forum-style support mechanisms for users on those silos

I disagree with awilfox's assertion that libre software should not
_use_ non-libre silos; I feel a better statement is that libre software
should not DEPEND on non-libre silos where possible, and offer libre
alternatives (IRC, despite it's problems).

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kristian Fiskerstrand <k_f@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> It matters if things are perceived as official Gentoo and causing a
> negative reputation as in the article in this thread. One some level
> that actually goes to trademark infringement that should be of interest
> to the foundation, but the issue is broader than that.
>

While I don't speak for the Foundation, they already have a fairly
decent policy addressing this:
https://www.gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/foundation/name-logo-guidelines.html

I believe this really only applies to use outside of Gentoo, and not
internal use.  Whether a service like a Discord site falls under
internal use probably depends on the degree to which they are
completely subject to Council/Trustees/etc, and the social contract
and code of conduct as enacted by those bodies.

For non-internal use the name/logo guidelines already have
requirements around reputation and code of conduct.  You can't just
call yourself "Gentoo" and do whatever you want (not that I'm implying
that this is what any particular site is doing - I haven't even seen
the discord).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-04-30 17:36:46, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 07:24:45PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-04-30 at 19:20 +0200, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > > On 4/30/19 7:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2019-04-29 at 22:34 +0200, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> > > > > In this article on chat services used for OSS:
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://catfox.life/2019/04/28/keeping-libre-software-accessible-to-all/
> > > > > 
> > > > > I was surprised to see a mention of Gentoo as a project that uses "Discord
> > > > > as an official method of communication". When I searched, I indeed found
> > > > > https://discordapp.com/invite/gentoo. However, I'd never before heard we
> > > > > were using Discord (and didn't find any mentions of Discord on the -dev or
> > > > > -project mailing lists).
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is this indeed an official venue? It's not listed on
> > > > > https://gentoo.org/support/ (which does mention IRC).
> > > > > 
> > > > I've contacted the author and the author refused to change it.
> > > > The claim is that 'PR team runs it', '8 Gentoo developers have admin
> > > > rights', 'i.e. it is sanctioned by the project itself'.  I was suggested
> > > > that if it's not official, we should close it instead.
> > > 
> > > If that is how it is perceived I'd be in favor of outright closing it at
> > > least
> > > 
> > I suppose the problem boils down to 'perceived by whom'.
> "What's official" is part of the problem.
> 
> The PR wiki page DOES list Discord as one of the official channels,
> along with other non-libre Silos.
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Public_Relations#Social_silos_and_chat
> 
> A better question is: in keeping with social contract, but balancing
> that users do want to be on different services, what material should be
> on each silo?
> - Announcements (copied to multiple locations)
> - chat/forum-style support mechanisms for users on those silos
> 
> I disagree with awilfox's assertion that libre software should not
> _use_ non-libre silos; I feel a better statement is that libre software
> should not DEPEND on non-libre silos where possible, and offer libre
> alternatives (IRC, despite it's problems).
> 

I agree with that statement (that we should not depend on non-libre
silos).  moderation of the discord server is another question (after
this discussion I suppose).

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo on Discord

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-04-30 13:43:31, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kristian Fiskerstrand <k_f@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > It matters if things are perceived as official Gentoo and causing a
> > negative reputation as in the article in this thread. One some level
> > that actually goes to trademark infringement that should be of interest
> > to the foundation, but the issue is broader than that.
> >
> 
> While I don't speak for the Foundation, they already have a fairly
> decent policy addressing this:
> https://www.gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/foundation/name-logo-guidelines.html
> 
> I believe this really only applies to use outside of Gentoo, and not
> internal use.  Whether a service like a Discord site falls under
> internal use probably depends on the degree to which they are
> completely subject to Council/Trustees/etc, and the social contract
> and code of conduct as enacted by those bodies.
> 
> For non-internal use the name/logo guidelines already have
> requirements around reputation and code of conduct.  You can't just
> call yourself "Gentoo" and do whatever you want (not that I'm implying
> that this is what any particular site is doing - I haven't even seen
> the discord).
> 

From what I remember the last time this came up we gave them the choice
of not using the name/logo in an official sense and using them with the
guidelines (CoC, etc).  iirc, they chose to follow the CoC.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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