From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12A3138334 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:30:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 823BFE0B34; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (dev.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05CD4E0AE0 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:30:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from katipo2.lan (unknown [203.86.205.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kentnl) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B292335C97 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:30:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:26:51 +1200 From: Kent Fredric To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: killing mediawiki Message-ID: <20180705132610.37ff0944@katipo2.lan> In-Reply-To: <20180704174411.GA30087@linux1.home> References: <20180703173943.GA21852@linux1.home> <20180704192153.3c581352@katipo2.lan> <20180704174411.GA30087@linux1.home> Organization: Gentoo X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/LgTiWAPp/lMp0HYJdL/SQn_"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: 64d42735-a2a1-4a8f-80fc-b157b4dafbbf X-Archives-Hash: 2a0182d0630d48e8d10260a775f966fa --Sig_/LgTiWAPp/lMp0HYJdL/SQn_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:44:11 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: > Yes I would benefit from this change, but it is not a case of optimizing > for one. It is a case of opening up the use of the wiki to the largest > audiance possible. This is just good universal design. Unfortunately, my experience with wiki's indicates that's not really an option we have. There are lots of different formats, sure, but lots of those formats reduce to being restrictive, declarative formats, where "content" is stuffed into a range of formats predefined in the markups syntax. This ultimately ends up *restricting* the range of *visual* tools at our disposal for distinguishing details on a case-by-case basis, by forcing all details to adhere to a universally simplified scheme. While I do appreciate the difficulty presented to people with sight-impairment, I'd opt primarily for choices that help them *without* compromising the range of options we have for visual distinguishers. Just as it stands, a syntax that is represented as a simplification of HTML via templates, where new terms can be created in terms of HTML, and where raw HTML can be used in a pinch, tends to make the best of these options for unimpaired people. Its a shitty situation all round really, because as best as I can tell, there's no choice without some painful compromise for somebody. So while a universal design is an admirable goal, I fear in practice it will have the same results as what "universal interfaces" achieve: A reduction in net functionality because the more interesting/advanced functionality is out of the reach of some users. ( Yes, yes, I'm aware of my sight-privilege talking ) --Sig_/LgTiWAPp/lMp0HYJdL/SQn_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEgdrME8Lrmai3DXYJda6SGagVg7UFAls9c+gACgkQda6SGagV g7UAMg//bhhU0VBphOf6Ftqa3WEML5ole2IlmeFCeN/8Ed3LwxyMn68acXg4+4RS sglRWCBSh72/IBmuKHBkb3YVREwB7N55kLRsXaPdFC+MaAP+BpHfhNpxf5dQp4VS Ckw3omZT7sSI4hODsIcARdaHtx3YDDtSnnkptNdCRVWoecQ6EwEMUvWSrTGxSPg9 2TB6+jaQ2xcirzOs1ur27JQGPVny/wTQSFi9m27SDqcgxmmBYg6nTKtWVPTU3n3l XOgjDCVR8roV2pQUMnqbum4ur6i2B/6iEuAlecnugZr7HCPk+wuivT0MqpZ7Z9M6 +oyP6mt8jylcDYx7JwLNY9fEQ8g0UaQ0PKt8oZRr1xZvul8vU9vTx41U1tYNfrqr Nlc28scsqRT+kTJLJ2pnWOqiZVr7jvCexgMRyPTIWYaIq0e9BSjZZsKMBfZHbJnb tEwxWuOC/eIJDeCQnXjUQKaatGBT/v5mTOiNcBkk3QfrcER9+Y/ncCBcVX0Kx9oT PXYAjZXQxwOL0I8sotm9MmB3YIKWiXmThvt9SRa1YZIPR/UtWLCi7EN5Sri6RyUp 07xzG2psgkkmUI48F4vw5SckWLa6N2PV30UE7oMsbvrRnwybgafY7iWj0HqUfSOX 7o3OEPYMaYTdpytyG8p4htFTvQVpdZjujmB+xlgWbmY3njQaGPU= =yHta -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/LgTiWAPp/lMp0HYJdL/SQn_--