From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF03B139083 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:29:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD9B9E101E; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:29:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AC9EE0FE6 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:29:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from clocktown (anon-40-182.vpn.ipredator.se [46.246.40.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: zlg) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A912C33C1EB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:29:33 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 16:29:24 -0800 From: Daniel Campbell To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: That's all folks. (Re: OT Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-project] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists) Message-ID: <20171210002924.GA7321@clocktown> References: <1512256684.30000.48.camel@gentoo.org> <07a58a98-963c-f44d-7c36-680625eb370c@gentoo.org> <3507626.Rbvgo18spg@pinacolada> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3507626.Rbvgo18spg@pinacolada> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Archives-Salt: e6e1e6e0-cd94-4a36-94b9-6ecb140eb07b X-Archives-Hash: 16a584443dd6ea013a3dd7f57e9ecbcd --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 09:22:32PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 7. Dezember 2017, 19:06:36 CET schrieb William L. Thomson = Jr.: > >=20 > > The day everyone wanted has come, after this message. I will > > unsubscribe not to return. You all won in 2008, and again in 2017. > > Though this time I will not be back. I tried more than most anyone else > > would for a very long time. Gentoo wins I lose, I am fine with that. > >=20 > > Please do not contact me off list in IRC or at all. I am done with the > > Gentoo community! >=20 > > Independent of whether William now unsubscribed or not, he's now enjoying= a=20 > lengthy (1 year until review) vacation from all Gentoo communication chan= nels. > >=20 > --=20 > Andreas K. H=C3=BCttel > dilfridge@gentoo.org > Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice) So, mgorny threatened to leave if something wasn't done, right? I saw the IRC conversation about unsubscribing from gentoo-dev, as well. IRC is not private, for the record. Other developers are required to subscribe to -dev, and are expected to follow it so they stay informed. If they missed something covered on the list, they are directed to the archives and (usually) laughed at. I see no reason for this expectation to be waived for any single developer. Do I get a free pass if I don't like what someone says? It's not enough to let wltjr leave on his own; you had to create a ban and add a smug, tongue-in-cheek mail to it to maintain the image of doing something. Quite hypocritical of comrel's attitude of secrecy to suddenly announce a ban. It seems to me that secrecy is only adopted when it suits those who stand to benefit from it. Great things coming from Gentoo "leadership" here. What will you do when mgorny starts targeting developers and pitching tantrums over them, too? Are we going to stratify developership further, too? It seems rather clear to me that a few individuals see themselves as the owners of this distro and bend it to suit their whims, using bureacracy to obscure their actions and motivations, segment the community, and block those less experienced. This is precisely why we have unmotivated developers and a bevy of unmaintained packages; nobody wants to contribute to a distro that treats its users (and developers) so poorly. A distro should never bend its entire social structure to protect the feelings of one surly developer (or his/her entourage), but naturally since every council member is friends with mgorny and comrel is afraid to take any action against him, they'll make exceptions to established procedures and ignore any complaints about the way he treats others. Software cannot fix wetware. Plenty of developers get to deal with mgorny's aggressive and insulting tone, yet nothing happens. Gee... I wonder why. Maybe because the upper parts of Gentoo are riddled with cronyism. "Rules for thee, not for me." It's clear to anyone with eyeballs that there is preferential treatment and inconsistent enforcement of rules in this community, and the people in a position to fix it, won't, because they in fact benefit from this. Unfortunately, GLEP 39 does not have a section on recalling or impeachment... This whole situation highlights why the Council has no business sticking its head into non-technical matters. It's clearly not up to the task. It's no surprise, since technical skill does not guarantee or even imply social skill. (or vice-versa) I'm tired of people beating around the bush and the facile attempts of tact: why do you give special treatment to certain members of this community? Would you have done anything different if it were me or some other developer who was proposing this change? It wouldn't have made it to the Council agenda if he didn't write it, period. Everyone else would've been told to suck it up and deal with it. And knowing how the Council is, in a few days we'll all get to deal with the churn of mailing lists to protect one person's ego. Sad. ~zlg --=20 Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer, Trustee, Treasurer OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEgIn+0tMDW9PQWDLnASQOlFA54XAFAlosf+QACgkQASQOlFA5 4XD4KA/7BlNEcG4D7UME2O2aD/+XBSnhyHqSGCzoHYVUlJ7nVKBgGJZNelmAHpaP pzp66nng7h2tPx6MTVOlcVAaTO4OxcsneI2NZA3EDH2ZYvX5Yo2LV6P1t8aa2e2O 17m6fNCfUgim0xXwlbD8poiiH9NvykhC2mPhg8m4wCo30fJoRQaWOFmDYDrNr2AY 1Uai5xbkVYCut2VxMGT7+KJ4H0rcTOAKgDicMZOu8uBNbeTBjirDDa8AvsFn54UL Sgs1BwxkmOYwY1L2+8UW8McXh2cO4cuq1ZYfh2CedJDxCjf0RBNbvR213wu2Jz/X yjcZ9n0ptoId7/VXHRPln8R4FcQqco4aVXyUjo9YHUSSNb0LAdUHq5JXDlWwsoOt NRtjg0SK4ST4NBubxaKLQ8SQWmS/7L+HqL+E4A7itRoXd2pedKwTqjyDLs1w/cFC aW/C7k/U33FAqGftrjhHNru5PgB5WT144+9v4TipwZoI5412qJLQkr+zGZwMpyGM jGT1Jxf2MZ0pKBGyrn+3DyAWDGPn8rEh/lDARonKVlmCAHULllDoumUM9BiXmnnr aM7vgh/xyb2zPxQu+6e0bhf2tdAnTg223Uh/J9lKBigiAcyuw5bLwunBErkufpBR mCBWx1l8UWyYYSD6s84PVI0l3d4BhCmneLJCUPVRUtqLydrLoI0= =GgEV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0--