From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89E8A139694 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 18:03:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12B731FC070; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 18:03:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (mail.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC1EA1FC055 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 18:03:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [46.148.226.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: bircoph) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F2CA341902 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 18:03:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:03:42 +0300 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Future of gentoo's stable and unstable trees: what are your thoughts? Message-Id: <20170729210342.65aacaa6e3c830e01c5779b0@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <1931696.H1tAJ0QB7a@porto> References: <20170724222223.6d359e47@sf> <20170724232244.GT12397@stuge.se> <1931696.H1tAJ0QB7a@porto> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.5.1 (GTK+ 2.24.30; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Sat__29_Jul_2017_21_03_42_+0300_U_D/UTus6KU98rB=" X-Archives-Salt: 2758f980-1f92-4e50-a43c-d7b7bd48031a X-Archives-Hash: 29b1ee4453b0baf02073094277664be9 --Signature=_Sat__29_Jul_2017_21_03_42_+0300_U_D/UTus6KU98rB= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:44:20 +0200 Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > Am Dienstag, 25. Juli 2017, 01:22:44 CEST schrieb Peter Stuge: > >=20 > > I hold a perhaps radical view: I would like to simply remove stable. > >=20 > > I continue to feel that maintaining two worlds (stable+unstable) > > carries with it an unneccessary cost. > >=20 >=20 > That's not feasible. It would kill off any semi-professional or professio= nal=20 > Gentoo use, where a minimum of stability is required.=20 >=20 > (Try keeping ~10 machines on stable running without automation. That's al= ready=20 > quite some work. Now try the same with ~arch. Now imagine you're talking = about=20 > 100 or 1000 machines.) =20 ~50 hosts here on ~arch. Stable vs unstable is not an issue for production. The main problem (at least in my case) is upgrade path, especially with hosts not that often updated. Upgrade of Gentoo-based production hosts takes considerable time, not just due to compilation time and issues, but due to the need to update dozens (sometimes hundreds) of config files properly and this process can't be fully automated. Another problem is short support time: only update path for systems up to one year old is supported more or less. IRL even half year old system may be PITA for a full update. To make it worse there are cases when people deliberately make such updates harder: some developers are refusing to set minimal version requirements for dependencies if dependency versions below minimal were below latest stable 1 year age. While such behaviour is within established policies I frankly do not understand such devs: having >=3Dcat/foo-1.2.3 instead of cat/foo doesn't hurt, but makes life of fellow users much easier. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Sat__29_Jul_2017_21_03_42_+0300_U_D/UTus6KU98rB= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE63ZIHsdeM+1XgNer9lNaM7oe5I0FAll8zf4ACgkQ9lNaM7oe 5I16qg/+PbS9wehfi2IV2ahGbB39j/oOtnkIcudZJ9izJWJs3EpIm/1VYbq/pq1I 1klEYa0Zh4nD8mn8p/qoaE1qZHTb1VH7ly6Z8zce3iIdAFiE7eCgLT1drBRHIDpJ VeKsHxhu5F4isMMk8GEAt/76m8NoQ0ObUsdDQwsPjED2N4ALbe+KEeX9weNqFasK zvJBO0qswiS/F6XN2kRvSsKuW2N536ut5kiSWp2AnXWv9fhekC+XV49Vs+QAWrto wVRunir06uE2PdJrUuw55xgQzGQZ0PtIwGu3dg8BRLNIfQLBPb5nWkHUsxEi0VUo TOquamv6bHeQ8rNEVWBheDDD+pOLDXJbd8qFXjmtQBoAeZ7OvdlCTZJFQpTrw8iZ /Dbtv7H7gi1o/4cnQCtnDSeQTDV7y8UZ+7zwYf5frx+C8zXFn4hDRHXp8eYYu/7i qzjFnA8IxHaeiL1woGglYdHHPzGnJkg022FEgGr6X8VFnJD5spmA381T4sDxXk+N 7kZF00xsok3GvYQXC3sNXcQoVdfq3qPiZ6CTdBQPzc/3uDKWvks7+YbIX1us05Iv VOsw+esQjqszzbSyPpAqwlQqSMstGEVCcRJ24fCmzvk0+KDqP+lNlorqTDwy6WJE JkRMiiLb3i/FuJRsxgB/phcbWXex6gUEioQtxGPRyqvOayo9Mpk= =GVqO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Sat__29_Jul_2017_21_03_42_+0300_U_D/UTus6KU98rB=--