* [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? @ 2015-04-12 12:17 Yanestra 2015-04-12 13:08 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-13 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell 0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Yanestra @ 2015-04-12 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1047 bytes --] Hi, I am long time user of Gentoo and I tinker with the idea of becoming Gentoo developer. I am a software developer by profession, but I am not quite sure if I should involve with Gentoo ebuild development. To be honest, I have not the slightest imagination what becoming a Gentoo developer might mean. Things seem to be abhorringly complicated. As far as I understand, there are developers, proxy developers, then there is something like Project Sunrise which I don't understand. There are apparently several different portage source repositories, basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and somewhere subversion seems to linger. And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall structure. Can someone please tell me where to start becoming a developer? Do there exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? Why is there such a chaos? Thanks! [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1679 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 12:17 [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? Yanestra @ 2015-04-12 13:08 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-12 14:27 ` Yanestra 2015-04-13 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-12 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev, wysiwyg El dom, 12-04-2015 a las 14:17 +0200, Yanestra escribió: > Hi, > > I am long time user of Gentoo and I tinker with the idea of becoming > Gentoo developer. > > I am a software developer by profession, but I am not quite sure if I > should involve with Gentoo ebuild development. > > To be honest, I have not the slightest imagination what becoming a > Gentoo developer might mean. Things seem to be abhorringly > complicated. > > As far as I understand, there are developers, proxy developers, then > there is something like Project Sunrise which I don't understand. > > There are apparently several different portage source repositories, > basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far > as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and > somewhere subversion seems to linger. > > And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or > strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall > structure. > > Can someone please tell me where to start becoming a developer? Do > there exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? > > Why is there such a chaos? > > Thanks! > Hi! I don't see such chaos :/ Did you take a look to https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/become-developer/ ? Regarding the documentation needed to fulfill the quizzes, the quizzes already contain "tips" to help people to find the documentation, also, most of the useful information is at: https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ Then, starting to read Devmanual would be a good start :) Best regards ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 13:08 ` Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-12 14:27 ` Yanestra 2015-04-12 14:44 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-12 15:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Yanestra @ 2015-04-12 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/12/2015 03:08 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote: > Hi! I don't see such chaos :/ Maybe you can explain what this maintainer / proxy maintainer / Sunrise fuss is all about? I've never seen the page you mentioned about the recruiting process. Sounds strange. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 14:27 ` Yanestra @ 2015-04-12 14:44 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-12 15:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-12 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1757 bytes --] On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:27:53 +0200 Yanestra wrote: > On 04/12/2015 03:08 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote: > > Hi! I don't see such chaos :/ > Maybe you can explain what this maintainer / proxy maintainer / Sunrise > fuss is all about? Maintainer is a Gentoo developers who maintains a package. Proxy maintainer is a Gentoo developer who proxies user maintaining a package. User is called a "proxied maintainer" in such case, that is probably what you meant. That is, if Gentoo user wants to help maintain a currently orphaned package (i.e. a package without maintainer or an officially maintained package, but suffering from serious issues where current maintainer can't keep up with all bugs/updates and needs help), he/she may maintain that package without becoming Gentoo developer, for details see: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Proxy_Maintainers Sunrise is an overlay intended for user-submitted ebuilds reviewed by developers. By its spirit it is somewhat similar to proxy-maintainers project, but different in implementation and review process. There are other overlays available: some are official, some are user-maintained, so you may ask for your own personal overlay as well. Official overlays are usually used for a dedicated projects with narrow audience and/or as a staging grounds for packages before they will enter main Gentoo tree. And there is only one main Gentoo tree (also known as a "portage tree" due to historical reasons). There are multiple protocols via which this tree is available (cvs, rsync mirror, git mirror), but tree is the same. > I've never seen the page you mentioned about the recruiting process. > Sounds strange. Happy googling :) Best regards, Andrew Savchenko [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 14:27 ` Yanestra 2015-04-12 14:44 ` Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-12 15:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2015-04-12 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Am Sonntag, 12. April 2015, 16:27:53 schrieb Yanestra: > > Maybe you can explain what this maintainer / proxy maintainer / Sunrise > fuss is all about? Mostly ways of getting involved for people who are new to Gentoo. Attempts to "make the initial step easier". The number of such attempts has exploded recently, and it tends to get confusing. * Proxy-maintainership means "you take care of some ebuilds, and a developer commits the stuff for you". Which is good for the start, but in the end it just generates double work, so if you're serious about contributing more, becoming a full dev over time is the way to go. * Sunrise is an overlay for user contributions, with rather strict review and QA guidelines, and a good place to learn how to write ebuilds. Due to limited manpower it is sadly a bit inactive right now. While this is all very nice, the main thing for becoming developer is 1) find a way to contribute (i.e. something that interests you), 2) find a mentor (ideally with related interests). > There are apparently several different portage source repositories, > basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far > as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and > somewhere subversion seems to linger. There is one main and official portage tree. Or in newspeak, the Gentoo repository. You know, the thing that goes into /usr/portage. It sadly still lives on cvs. That may change in the future. Overlays are add-on repositories which add more ebuilds. They can use any sort of version control system you like, be maintained by just about everyone and have any or no quality control guidelines at all. Don't believe any of the stuff you hear about Gentoo decentralization. Just because someone makes a lot of noise doesn't necessarily mean it'll have any impact. > And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or > strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall > structure. > Do there exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? > Why is there such a chaos? Much documentation is being reorganized at the moment. You should start with the main website. Anything in the "Project:" namespace of the wiki is also official. Otherwise, Pacho already mentioned the most important page. https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/become-developer/ Cheers, Andreas - -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice) dilfridge@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVKommAAoJEB9VdM6hupKVfeoP/A+OKwTL3vpKPzfDTo/xL5UU 5tCeuyZ8kJjqTl4mdn6+3q3ZA4xbCEsd/8lmp8Z5hoDRP0h/myQZXsYMIbHU4MJ+ YdkJC5xYF9IFQykEtu97qPwcSCe6alGJDQZ8P4rX3oEmscSXJTP/vatObvwmOZbh cW6p9r9XXoDeclsbg6y5jPWCNGLoCkgbyLDeTPoFkcqpIVgpCH2ekGQ0jkTNI0KM /5iiAijOwcMyC8oG4VQBECg9xdH9N3dRjlcuu2I6CIISHzOka5gX/LjB6EnD6mG9 fDw3Jg4ASx8CmnyWwwOJBJaZHX9sdh5H/7VQaPzoYVvtzAFw5U8KyhcKJ3QqfPBf ZJBgf36ZO89szxaNW4JXyFhFwgcmcexCIX7nudSC+cXYGsBbdUB4IAFch7i5oirX 8FD3ihmlADejyF/ULQlCw3z+kc8U3vGRXG7C4hYq3Cq6nbJ1Dn4NMOAEyTyOtzRI M9+YVd+aCpFDehf0D6qK22zC03MWtyfKcFb7ueXU0+w+83JQ2psvrK3OOxOo4uPf 4znI8BthWGqKto4BC51H6/a9v9TT9VUY9ZOSvCMEvBfa8nV6KxcsRnHDK10/8YKX lCKK7X1J9eissceCIfInkZH0hb+YApo9xWWEqo2sM78IK300/TV52tq2vX5wGDtP axrEs4rfzMrPQTURnhSC =iPEZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 15:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel @ 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra 2015-04-15 6:40 ` Diamond ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Yanestra @ 2015-04-15 3:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Hi, after a talk with some of the persons present here, it appears, Gentoo Linux is actually something like a Freemason lodge. Many secrets, inaugurations, and obviously magic. People, I can only conclude you are not sane. This is absolutely ICK ... YOU ARE ICK !! Disgusting. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra @ 2015-04-15 6:40 ` Diamond 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Diamond @ 2015-04-15 6:40 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 05:33:44 +0200 Yanestra <wysiwyg@seismic.de> wrote: > Hi, > > after a talk with some of the persons present here, it appears, Gentoo > Linux is actually something like a Freemason lodge. > > Many secrets, inaugurations, and obviously magic. > > People, I can only conclude you are not sane. > > This is absolutely ICK ... YOU ARE ICK !! > > Disgusting. > > "Let None But Geometers Enter Here." )) (Phrase wich was inscribed above the entrance to the Platonic Academy.) You can just send your patches here: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror P.S. The only way to know is to learn. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra 2015-04-15 6:40 ` Diamond @ 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell ` (2 more replies) 2015-04-15 20:46 ` [gentoo-dev] " Pacho Ramos 2015-04-16 14:22 ` Bob Wya 3 siblings, 3 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Peter Stuge @ 2015-04-15 13:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Yanestra wrote: > after a talk with some of the persons present here, it appears, Gentoo > Linux is actually something like a Freemason lodge. I disagree with this. I do agree that the threshold to become a developer with write access to the gentoo repo is very high, which is why I'm not a developer, although I use Gentoo tools and have been writing ebuilds for many years. I don't have time for the overhead, so I just maintain my own overlay. > Many secrets, Something is only a secret if there is intent to keep it secret. I agree that the various Gentoo structures and the overhead is not well-documented in a very accessible manner. There are good and bad mostly historical but partly also legal reasons for the overhead, but I strongly disagree that there would be any intent to keep any part of the structures and overhead secret. > inaugurations, That's the becoming-a-developer-threshold, which I find too high to be worth my time, but in my overlay, which is easily installable using the layman tool, I can still contribute to the Gentoo ecosystem. > and obviously magic. No magic, just advanced technology. But you'll have to learn how it works to decide whether it is for you, or if something simpler will suffice for your needs. Kind regards //Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge @ 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell 2015-04-16 22:59 ` Kent Fredric ` (2 more replies) 2015-04-17 10:33 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 19:14 ` [gentoo-dev] " Justin Bronder 2 siblings, 3 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-16 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/15/2015 03:02 PM, Peter Stuge wrote: > Yanestra wrote: > >> Many secrets, > > Something is only a secret if there is intent to keep it secret. > I agree that the various Gentoo structures and the overhead is not > well-documented in a very accessible manner. There are good and bad > mostly historical but partly also legal reasons for the overhead, but > I strongly disagree that there would be any intent to keep any part > of the structures and overhead secret. > Some of the technology used in gentoo is in fact secret. Overall, the tree or the documentation about PMS, portage and how to write ebuilds is not secret. Whether this collides with our social contract... well, decide for yourself. > >> inaugurations, > > That's the becoming-a-developer-threshold, which I find too high to > be worth my time, but in my overlay, which is easily installable using > the layman tool, I can still contribute to the Gentoo ecosystem. > High-quality overlays are the easiest way to contribute. I don't think users should really have to care when or how an ebuild reaches the CVS gentoo tree. Most projects already use overlays (e.g. science, perl, haskell...). Start there and you'll save a lot of headache too. > >> and obviously magic. > > No magic, just advanced technology. But you'll have to learn how it > works to decide whether it is for you, or if something simpler will > suffice for your needs. > Not only advanced, but sometimes also broken technology, because the system wasn't really designed from the start. It has grown with time. Portage is unrecoverable, but we already have efforts of useful alternatives. To reply to the topic: If the only reason you want to become a gentoo developer is "contributing ebuilds", then you should reconsider that, because there are easier ways to do that. But if you are interested in politics, PMS, EAPI and other organizational stuff on top of contributing ebuilds, it might make sense. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-16 22:59 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-17 19:38 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-17 21:09 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-16 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1575 bytes --] On 17 April 2015 at 05:27, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote: > To reply to the topic: If the only reason you want to become a gentoo > developer is "contributing ebuilds", then you should reconsider that, > because there are easier ways to do that. > But if you are interested in politics, PMS, EAPI and other > organizational stuff on top of contributing ebuilds, it might make sense. > Contributing ebuilds via overlays is a useful way, and a good place to start learning how to do things. But its woefully ineffective at being useful for gentoo's main audience. Gentoo dev's can of course steal stuff from overlays, but then your point of failure is delegated back to "stafffing needs", which is in significant shortage. Contributing ebuilds via bugzilla attachments is another way, both in terms of proxy-maint and making gentoo-staffs life easier, but you're still stuck on the staffing-needs problem of having to scehdule somebody to make the requisite changes to the tree. And there are quite a few people who are circling gentoo who have so far only made it as far as those two points, and have found the leap to full developer so far an overwhelming challenge. Some might argue you don't want a staffer who hasn't made it past that guantlet. But I'm not entirely sure thats true. But that contribution barrier really seems like it shares a lot in common with a cult initiation/hazing process, and I appreciated the analogy as so long as it was not intended to be taken seriously or literally. =) -- Kent *KENTNL* - https://metacpan.org/author/KENTNL [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2522 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell 2015-04-16 22:59 ` Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-17 19:38 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-17 21:09 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-17 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev El jue, 16-04-2015 a las 19:27 +0200, hasufell escribió: [...] > To reply to the topic: If the only reason you want to become a gentoo > developer is "contributing ebuilds", then you should reconsider that, > because there are easier ways to do that. > But if you are interested in politics, PMS, EAPI and other > organizational stuff on top of contributing ebuilds, it might make sense. > I, as another Gentoo developer, encourage people willing to contribute ebuilds to try to jump the gap if possible to allow to directly "do the job" instead of depending on others (with commit access) to import the ebuilds they put at some random overlays. I am not mostly interested in "politics, PMS, EAPI and other organizational stuff" and I still think it makes sense to become a gentoo developer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell 2015-04-16 22:59 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-17 19:38 ` Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-17 21:09 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-18 9:45 ` hasufell 2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2015-04-17 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Am Donnerstag, 16. April 2015, 19:27:13 schrieb hasufell: > > High-quality overlays are the easiest way to contribute. I don't think > users should really have to care when or how an ebuild reaches the CVS > gentoo tree. Most projects already use overlays (e.g. science, perl, > haskell...). Start there and you'll save a lot of headache too. > * No offense to those involved there intended, but I'm pretty sure that overall QA standards in the main tree are higher than in the sci overlay at least. * The KDE overlay contains mainly live ebuilds and packager prereleases not for public consumption. * The perl overlay is mainly a one-man project with 800 packages, and while you can certainly send as many pull requests there as you want, time would be spent in a more productive way updating the main tree perl packages. (Except that requires talking to and cooperating with the rest of the perl team. Oh bugger.) Project overlays are typically used as staging ground for packages "in preparation" or "not yet ready for the end user". I am still not sure why you are trying to forcefully mix up this distinction. As a side note, my personal willingness to add random overlays to my system is limited while (only as examples) there are no arch teams supervising keywording/stabilization there, no security team tracking vulnerabilities and filing GLSAs, and while there's no QA team that kicks people doing silly eclass changes. - -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfridge@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJVMXauXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ0RkJDMzI0NjNBOTIwMDY5MTQ2NkMzNDBF MTM4NkZEN0VGNEI1Nzc5AAoJEOE4b9fvS1d5HrQQAKsrhuF7Hj6OnCxuI+HtVT1Q T23tOikXbVCJBwKOA0vkN3XfGMEmU09lDAl8Y9EEs/b33NPXLUi1kWypTiWk04/L rg8OqxUm33KoatkoUP9rlGtr+n0UEHZ9sGp1LPiyhPJqRz8AJPcybmT68gHCMwS7 W/nUmuPanjpxGLRzkp1GtUrXQZnEW6MXbXjL8xFeAZg/jh+hF990Zu4daYFWT5N3 6N09gR/n3V0HoQftq5VM2HRMS+PBMlXOdF+ufkosLtHToFtqUSwnys09I+BlvFb7 pxci4C7SwadzMxgcdbo8K4fLkwkwJDoiCiMJJcSdiVgvgHCVBq2pS2kvzsbo8aXU x/TRRU0olaK+2dz3IJIqbeGQD2qF1KzFVBWZklt6LTIUmvoUcFmxAYZI6BvlFMGH m1/GwYzU2Z7oVxwFYjn/woTuBztK8g9mPsTHWxgf9Pz4nCUgsUY11Z8bIL4CvSIu FAXEbe/E8kbjBtSV0Fgm6CQNPCUjarg39LZ9i7DUkmyl/0ZP9elWF52p4dT6aaBu W0BbrcgNFxuLikDXYstvjISv77mYkKPQ71HHvKaH9sHT6CodTUnyCah8vOKnyiYB JabnZwsbM6y90CCli4QlpBf38RnND8e0hcfbYdx2kJ6ds3o7ChlXnffqshiH8BZG I/mdl5olDI4O3g587LxN =RgJ5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 21:09 ` Andreas K. Huettel @ 2015-04-18 9:45 ` hasufell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-18 9:45 UTC (permalink / raw To: dilfridge; +Cc: gentoo-dev On 04/17/2015 11:09 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 16. April 2015, 19:27:13 schrieb hasufell: > >> High-quality overlays are the easiest way to contribute. I don't think >> users should really have to care when or how an ebuild reaches the CVS >> gentoo tree. Most projects already use overlays (e.g. science, perl, >> haskell...). Start there and you'll save a lot of headache too. > > > * No offense to those involved there intended, but I'm pretty sure that overall QA standards in the main tree are higher than in the sci overlay at least. Hm. That really depends on the maintainers. I've repeatedly seen utterly broken ebuilds in the tree that have lower quality than most user overlays. It's hard to say something about the QA standards of the tree, because there is no consistent workflow. > Project overlays are typically used as staging ground for packages "in preparation" or "not yet ready for the end user". I am still not sure why you are trying to forcefully mix up this distinction. > Project overlays are not just used as staging ground, but also for user contributions. I don't think I am mixing up anything here and I was talking about "high-quality" overlays in general. I don't really care if it's run by a gentoo project when I contribute. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-17 10:33 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 11:00 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 19:14 ` [gentoo-dev] " Justin Bronder 2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: > the threshold to become a developer with write access to the > gentoo repo is very high LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in which any dev can do essentially whatever they want. - -- Alexander bernalex@gentoo.org https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlUw4WEACgkQRtClrXBQc7WitQEAjRgQsWlb7BXOISCNWekP7L2o zgwEf45lR1Zx8nNpsxYA/R1bSc2S570Js6uD9wTU40EV+tbCK0j2RaJbMz4g/+jQ =GgCd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 10:33 ` Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 11:00 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 11:12 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand 2015-04-17 11:14 ` hasufell 0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1241 bytes --] On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:33:06 +0200 Alexander Berntsen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: > > the threshold to become a developer with write access to the > > gentoo repo is very high > LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in which any > dev can do essentially whatever they want. The only net results from strict review workflow (when each commit of each dev must be reviewed and approved by at least N devs) are tons of bikeshedding, real quality improvement is marginal, because people are working in different areas anyway. And if you will consider, that strict review will require N more times effort and spent time, actual quality of the tree will drop almost N times, because number of man hours spent on Gentoo is approximately constant with the same number of devs. Really, I'm tired of that review bikeshedding and trolling. Before continuing talks like that take a list of paper, do some calculations, think them over. And do not point at the Linux kernel — they have ~80% paid developers, so they have resources for that kind of workflow. We are volunteers here, so we don't. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 11:00 ` Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 11:12 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand 2015-04-17 11:14 ` hasufell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Kristian Fiskerstrand @ 2015-04-17 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 04/17/2015 01:00 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:33:06 +0200 Alexander Berntsen wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 >> >> On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: >>> the threshold to become a developer with write access to the >>> gentoo repo is very high >> LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in >> which any dev can do essentially whatever they want. > > The only net results from strict review workflow (when each commit > of each dev must be reviewed and approved by at least N devs) are Agreed, although to be fair, without putting words in Alexander's mouth, I believe the original intention was mostly that we should have a high bar to get commit access, as it involve a great deal of trust in the first place, a review process would be a mitigant for this, but as you correctly point out, it simply isn't economical. As have been pointed out, there are other ways to contribute (proxied maintenance, overlay, editing wiki, support etc) that is likely a better starting point than becoming a dev directly. - -- Kristian Fiskerstrand Public PGP key 0xE3EDFAE3 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVMOqVAAoJEP7VAChXwav6b0EIAKrSIInhoq7lrpLdHO8HtuVV beCvj+WM6zwIoI1ahuRxvhwGxUVQ/CJShBYgmCl+IjahyUUG+v6Shzl3XoMi73U3 CyNGeTBGqdSl1BM7uo0j1oO3Qh/xWPsz8GvrMoQDqvWiMpo9qy6xyAikf4QrZA71 WXonj/IeYP9KKo3uGgOUIGCB4tsHP6lY+HTN9DGkVwAJWFeNqEPcBhTChrEec+Cv yG9xzcMfxT8ixochMaG1b1A0wVq/hIpMQ2UuIy573QylZ5bwwOy++9leSrR5I5xY rtuusipxROGklSPxsFyFa6GEBwd2stNB03LduxHvaffmJnE4MewLoJ2NuASgytQ= =ZCi4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 11:00 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 11:12 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand @ 2015-04-17 11:14 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 12:26 ` Andrew Savchenko 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-17 11:14 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/17/2015 01:00 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:33:06 +0200 Alexander Berntsen wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: >>> the threshold to become a developer with write access to the >>> gentoo repo is very high >> LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in which any >> dev can do essentially whatever they want. > > The only net results from strict review workflow (when each commit > of each dev must be reviewed and approved by at least N devs) are > tons of bikeshedding, real quality improvement is marginal, because > people are working in different areas anyway. And if you will > consider, that strict review will require N more times effort and > spent time, actual quality of the tree will drop almost N times, > because number of man hours spent on Gentoo is approximately > constant with the same number of devs. If you have followed the recent discussions about gentoos organizational structure, review workflow and overlay situation you would know that there is a pretty simple solution for this problem. Review workflow will not be random/global. Some gentoo projects already have strict review workflow. You just have to map this properly to the tree. If you do that improperly, then ofc it will be crap. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 11:14 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-17 12:26 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 12:50 ` hasufell 2015-04-21 10:33 ` Sergey Popov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1697 bytes --] On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:14:49 +0200 hasufell wrote: > On 04/17/2015 01:00 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:33:06 +0200 Alexander Berntsen wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >> Hash: SHA256 > >> > >> On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: > >>> the threshold to become a developer with write access to the > >>> gentoo repo is very high > >> LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in which any > >> dev can do essentially whatever they want. > > > > The only net results from strict review workflow (when each commit > > of each dev must be reviewed and approved by at least N devs) are > > tons of bikeshedding, real quality improvement is marginal, because > > people are working in different areas anyway. And if you will > > consider, that strict review will require N more times effort and > > spent time, actual quality of the tree will drop almost N times, > > because number of man hours spent on Gentoo is approximately > > constant with the same number of devs. > > If you have followed the recent discussions about gentoos organizational > structure, review workflow and overlay situation you would know that > there is a pretty simple solution for this problem. I have followed them and I have seen no solution usable in real world. > Review workflow will not be random/global. Some gentoo projects already > have strict review workflow. You just have to map this properly to the > tree. If you do that improperly, then ofc it will be crap. Please point to exact projects and exact descriptions of workflow processes. As for now I see none globally usable. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 12:26 ` Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 12:50 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-21 10:33 ` Sergey Popov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-17 12:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/17/2015 02:26 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:14:49 +0200 hasufell wrote: >> On 04/17/2015 01:00 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:33:06 +0200 Alexander Berntsen wrote: >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>> Hash: SHA256 >>>> >>>> On 15/04/15 15:02, Peter Stuge wrote: >>>>> the threshold to become a developer with write access to the >>>>> gentoo repo is very high >>>> LOL. No. It's way too low, given our review-less workflow in which any >>>> dev can do essentially whatever they want. >>> >>> The only net results from strict review workflow (when each commit >>> of each dev must be reviewed and approved by at least N devs) are >>> tons of bikeshedding, real quality improvement is marginal, because >>> people are working in different areas anyway. And if you will >>> consider, that strict review will require N more times effort and >>> spent time, actual quality of the tree will drop almost N times, >>> because number of man hours spent on Gentoo is approximately >>> constant with the same number of devs. >> >> If you have followed the recent discussions about gentoos organizational >> structure, review workflow and overlay situation you would know that >> there is a pretty simple solution for this problem. > > I have followed them and I have seen no solution usable in real > world. > The solution is that for example the ruby project assigns a few reviewers (e.g. project lead) and if someone wants to bump ruby packages, he submits a pull request and the assignee is going to be the ruby project. What's the problem? Do you think the usb-subsystem maintainer of the kernel is going to fiddle with the cryptography subsystem all by himself? That's not the case. And that's why the linux kernel workflow works: competence, subsystems and trust. All that is done in real world. And there are tons of tools to automated such a workflow easily without dumping everything to a single mailing list. Global reviews will only happen when stuff is actually of global importance, like non-trivial eclass changes or far-reaching technical decisions. So please do some research first before doing broad statements about what kind of workflow is possible. Other distros successfully use such workflows. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 12:50 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2881 bytes --] On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:50:00 +0200 hasufell wrote: > >> If you have followed the recent discussions about gentoos organizational > >> structure, review workflow and overlay situation you would know that > >> there is a pretty simple solution for this problem. > > > > I have followed them and I have seen no solution usable in real > > world. > > > > The solution is that for example the ruby project assigns a few > reviewers (e.g. project lead) and if someone wants to bump ruby > packages, he submits a pull request and the assignee is going to be the > ruby project. What's the problem? The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was needed, now effort is doubled at least: reviewers must dig into details how submitted code works, test it and only then commit. Now remember that reviewers are also developers. This means that pull requests will hang for weeks, months, forever due to a lack of time. On top of all this thinks about maintainer-needed packages or packages that can't be categorised into some single project, e.g. *-misc categories. > Do you think the usb-subsystem maintainer of the kernel is going to > fiddle with the cryptography subsystem all by himself? That's not the > case. And that's why the linux kernel workflow works: competence, > subsystems and trust. As I pointed above comparision of Gentoo with Linux kernel is invalid. We have different resources. Another argument that connectivity between subsystems is much higher in the Linux kernel. > All that is done in real world. And there are tons of tools to automated > such a workflow easily without dumping everything to a single mailing list. Reviews cannot be automated. A human being is still needed to read, understand and test proposed code. All tools like pull requests and so automate only a small bit of real work. > Global reviews will only happen when stuff is actually of global > importance, like non-trivial eclass changes or far-reaching technical > decisions. We already have that with gentoo-dev mail list. And I'm happy with current solution. If you can't handle patchset from e-mails, learn houw to use tools, e.g. quilt. > So please do some research first before doing broad statements about > what kind of workflow is possible. I already done such research and my conclusion is that it can't be fundamentally changed. Only small improvements here and there are possible. > Other distros successfully use such workflows. Other distros are binary based. They don't have USE flags, they don't have plenty of different compilers and environments. All they do is package building with predefined set of options in a fixed environment for each arch. Gentoo is much more complex than that. You can compare only apples to apples, not apples to plane. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 17:15 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-17 21:12 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-17 23:16 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-18 9:10 ` hasufell 2 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 17/04/15 16:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was > needed, now effort is doubled at least You have correctly identified the problem; in order to do things properly one must do things properly, which is more difficult than not doing things properly. On an unrelated side-note: I am considering a career in landscape portrait painting instead of computer science. - -- Alexander bernalex@gentoo.org https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlUxG6AACgkQRtClrXBQc7VmVQD9GyjKVdu4PWghoeJk/3vZJBe2 4C2zVdEP5B29B+RA07gA/0+UzuhetTYeKGjttkJNpTdHDeTjHJfKC26BK8tuYFPE =mm2P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 17:15 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-18 9:15 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 21:12 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-17 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote: > > On 17/04/15 16:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >> The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was >> needed, now effort is doubled at least > You have correctly identified the problem; in order to do things > properly one must do things properly, which is more difficult than not > doing things properly. > "Properly" is just a matter of requirements. Gentoo has 18k packages right now. In my general experience, they install fine maybe 95% of the time. If you said that you could increase that success rate from 95% to 99.99% by dropping to 500 packages, I'd tell you that I'd prefer things just they way they are. And that is the challenge. Everything is a trade-off. Right now we end up dropping packages because we can't find one person to maintain them. With a review workflow we'll drop packages if we can't find two people to maintain them. I doubt that would mean merely a 50% reduction, since our interests tend to be varied. You'll have some packages that are popular and there will be 10 people interested in reviewing them. Then you'll have many more packages that are cared for by a single person. -- Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 17:15 ` Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-18 9:15 ` hasufell 2015-04-18 9:26 ` Patrick Lauer 2015-04-18 12:35 ` Rich Freeman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-18 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: Rich Freeman; +Cc: gentoo-dev On 04/17/2015 07:15 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Alexander Berntsen > <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote: >> >> On 17/04/15 16:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >>> The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was >>> needed, now effort is doubled at least >> You have correctly identified the problem; in order to do things >> properly one must do things properly, which is more difficult than not >> doing things properly. >> > > "Properly" is just a matter of requirements. Gentoo has 18k packages > right now. In my general experience, they install fine maybe 95% of > the time. > Can you back up your "general experience" with a tinderbox log? In addition, you are decreasing "QA" to "compiles". That's not the definition. > Right now we > end up dropping packages because we can't find one person to maintain > them. With a review workflow we'll drop packages if we can't find two > people to maintain them. Nah, that's really not true. With a review workflow there is less need for actual maintainers! That's the whole point. I am really confused. I guess some people have never really been in a different workflow than gentoo to know that it's really not state-of-the-art. And it really isn't. Not even for distros. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-18 9:15 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-18 9:26 ` Patrick Lauer 2015-04-18 12:35 ` Rich Freeman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Patrick Lauer @ 2015-04-18 9:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Saturday 18 April 2015 11:15:56 hasufell wrote: > On 04/17/2015 07:15 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Alexander Berntsen > > > > <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote: > >> On 17/04/15 16:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > >>> The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was > >>> needed, now effort is doubled at least > >> > >> You have correctly identified the problem; in order to do things > >> properly one must do things properly, which is more difficult than not > >> doing things properly. > > > > "Properly" is just a matter of requirements. Gentoo has 18k packages > > right now. In my general experience, they install fine maybe 95% of > > the time. > > Can you back up your "general experience" with a tinderbox log? In > addition, you are decreasing "QA" to "compiles". That's not the definition. > Out of all the packages that are visible (i.e. not masked, hidden by uninstallable dependencies, or hidden by useflag requiremenst) For amd64 I see a build failure rate of ~2%, iow. out of ~10k packages that are buildable with a standard profile about 200 fail. (Last run done about half a year ago, it's slowly improved since I started in 2006) So the 95% buildable sounds like a very pessimistic estimate to me. For x86 the data looks pretty much the same, I think marginally worse. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-18 9:15 ` hasufell 2015-04-18 9:26 ` Patrick Lauer @ 2015-04-18 12:35 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-18 13:03 ` hasufell 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-18 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: hasufell; +Cc: gentoo-dev On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote: > On 04/17/2015 07:15 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Alexander Berntsen >> <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote: >>> >>> On 17/04/15 16:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote: >>>> The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was >>>> needed, now effort is doubled at least >>> You have correctly identified the problem; in order to do things >>> properly one must do things properly, which is more difficult than not >>> doing things properly. >>> >> >> "Properly" is just a matter of requirements. Gentoo has 18k packages >> right now. In my general experience, they install fine maybe 95% of >> the time. >> > > Can you back up your "general experience" with a tinderbox log? No. Of course, having a review workflow is orthogonal to having a tinderbox. > In addition, you are decreasing "QA" to "compiles". That's not the definition. If it makes you happy s/install/works. It is fairly rare to run into problems with Gentoo packages in my experience. > >> Right now we >> end up dropping packages because we can't find one person to maintain >> them. With a review workflow we'll drop packages if we can't find two >> people to maintain them. > > Nah, that's really not true. With a review workflow there is less need > for actual maintainers! That's the whole point. There is more need for actual maintainers. There is just less need for them to have commit access to the tree. If we instituted a policy that all commits needed to be reviewed it isn't like there would magically be a ton of pull requests headed our way. Users submit patches today, and users would submit patches tomorrow. We're not drowning in them today, and that is unlikely to change. There would still be nobody committing changes to java packages, just like today, and so on. > > I am really confused. I guess some people have never really been in a > different workflow than gentoo to know that it's really not > state-of-the-art. And it really isn't. Not even for distros. > I am not saying that a review workflow is bad. I just don't see how it fixes our actual problems, which is a lack of commits in the first place. You keep using the linux kernel as an example. The kernel has 8 patches per hour and the software is high-complexity. They need a review workflow to vet those changes and filter out the bad ones or get them reworked. Most committers are very motivated to get their code into the kernel. Other distros have MUCH larger userbases and active maintainer communities. They are also much simpler since they don't support mixing and matching random combinations of gcc, libfoo, and so on. Gentoo just doesn't have the same volume of incoming work. Now, if you're talking about making it easier to submit patches, having automated testing, and so on, I'm all for that. There are some already working on that and it will likely become more integrated into the core workflow when we migrate to git. Users can already submit pull requests using the github mirror. We just don't force everybody to do it that way. -- Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-18 12:35 ` Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-18 13:03 ` hasufell 2015-04-18 14:35 ` Rich Freeman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-18 13:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/18/2015 02:35 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: >> >> I am really confused. I guess some people have never really been in a >> different workflow than gentoo to know that it's really not >> state-of-the-art. And it really isn't. Not even for distros. >> > > I am not saying that a review workflow is bad. I just don't see how > it fixes our actual problems, which is a lack of commits in the first > place. > I think this should be so obvious by now given the past discussions (even in this very thread) that I'm not sure if I have to repeat myself. Having a proper review workflow/platform increases the contribution factor of the community. And not just that. I'm also not going to give real-world examples of such workflows in big projects: just head over to github. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-18 13:03 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-18 14:35 ` Rich Freeman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-18 14:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:03 AM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote: > > Having a proper review workflow/platform increases the contribution > factor of the community. And not just that. Define "contribution factor." If you mean the number of people writing patches vs the number of people with commit access, I'll agree. If you mean the absolute commit rate to the repository, I'd say that I have no reason to think that this is true. > > I'm also not going to give real-world examples of such workflows in big > projects: just head over to github. > We already have the same workflow in Gentoo. Anybody can submit a pull request to the git mirror of the main tree. It will get reviewed and committed. We just don't exclude direct commits. -- Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 17:15 ` Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-17 21:12 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2015-04-17 21:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Am Freitag, 17. April 2015, 16:41:37 schrieb Alexander Berntsen: > > On an unrelated side-note: I am considering a career in landscape > portrait painting instead of computer science. > I hereby confirm that I've read this message. - -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfridge@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJVMXchXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ0RkJDMzI0NjNBOTIwMDY5MTQ2NkMzNDBF MTM4NkZEN0VGNEI1Nzc5AAoJEOE4b9fvS1d5914QAInbpTgUQb9eY/DbTHioStJx dFf1ZhXogrqsmAmtGdeL+IjtM0BA+iZZMntH5BZZnX1HHNCiBEqyrIGtV0tp01ez 2CjmYXuv2DEwhIwMvazibc5jnqOrzf+CughmTqVYZmSVVAwSiDcR+LxgQL50Ziej lenUgl6kBYokcL9KRDMwmeHDpE7NufaEUzKlVZDBGm/0Zi71Pl+MjZnpckRZpOig vb4mzYAej93qbwosaoHHTtqd/W6zmBnDKNKe2S6lbuzV5KRc7uOhga6MqPCJ/7Zj nKyTv2Gx1VR3LFvU6GHciB9YYrBPwjimgLCqxEz4WggC7+VnsPs69uLhVMdERbLT Ccd7UmX9lWlUrLJXxzNykTVOUrZIW+Gfd1y4nu4l3BXqpABKRtrwfKI4yNmME3p3 oKJivKWLjCmtAlmoUybVuT+R6yKsvl3viKZsNVj1Wx0VpmW0j18aaxcIRZCyd5Fv uCCzBrAywWEHs6cAwxTX3hBnZsSpCwm6EZVNOQIjHUx0Y5IzzvNfz1p1Kv8XUe5x yma/JbDlQFwOePOwnEBTLErlFiTsk19LBHmgzc4/8OAIBgwww914pzFuTEs4DihD Jnk5leh0zq+B0qYH4ZGqaR7YV3oU5cmVTlP5oPlgmxzv8yIy9OvsUtpvbEpQe9nK YsZypO9NvrognwYZ1vMe =kNoA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 23:16 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-18 9:10 ` hasufell 2 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-17 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1784 bytes --] On 18 April 2015 at 02:33, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote: > The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was > needed, now effort is doubled at least: reviewers must dig into > details how submitted code works, test it and only then commit. Now > remember that reviewers are also developers. This means that pull > requests will hang for weeks, months, forever due to a lack of time. > On top of all this thinks about maintainer-needed packages or > packages that can't be categorised into some single project, e.g. > *-misc categories. > You're aware of course this is a current problem, not a prospective one, and that penalty is paid for every single contributor who doesn't have commit bits. This is where any shortage of staff compounds itself. Just our tooling is currently really poorly optimised, and so there are needless steps every developer must take to simply have the contibuted code available to even compare. I'm hoping with git migration we can find some alternatives that are less taxing. But the reduced opinion I have is a lack of progression between overlay contributor and gentoo dev. For instance, a single contributor may be tasked with performing a large number of arbitrary and time consuming simple steps on packages in a specific category, and the nature of their chances might be that the aggregate of those changes can be reviewed without need to review the individual diffs. The individual will still be isolated from unsanctioned contamination of the tree, and a trusted gentoo dev still makes the magic happen, so the elements of our human costs are all still there. But the tooling can make it more effective to review such differences by aggregation. -- Kent *KENTNL* - https://metacpan.org/author/KENTNL [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2746 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 23:16 ` Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-18 9:10 ` hasufell 2 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: hasufell @ 2015-04-18 9:10 UTC (permalink / raw To: bircoph; +Cc: gentoo-dev On 04/17/2015 04:33 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:50:00 +0200 hasufell wrote: >>>> If you have followed the recent discussions about gentoos organizational >>>> structure, review workflow and overlay situation you would know that >>>> there is a pretty simple solution for this problem. >>> >>> I have followed them and I have seen no solution usable in real >>> world. >>> >> >> The solution is that for example the ruby project assigns a few >> reviewers (e.g. project lead) and if someone wants to bump ruby >> packages, he submits a pull request and the assignee is going to be the >> ruby project. What's the problem? > > The problem is double effort: previously one developer effort was > needed, now effort is doubled at least: reviewers must dig into > details how submitted code works, test it and only then commit. Now > remember that reviewers are also developers. This means that pull > requests will hang for weeks, months, forever due to a lack of time. > On top of all this thinks about maintainer-needed packages or > packages that can't be categorised into some single project, e.g. > *-misc categories. > Not really. The depth of reviews will depend on a) what package/subsystem is it? Is it just an end-user app, is it a library, is it toolchain...? b) who sent the pull request? Was it a random user or a developer I trust? In the latter case I might just check that repoman doesn't choke and pull the stuff in. Currently... some gentoo projects who enforce strict reviews have very poor workflow. Because bugzilla is completely useless for reviews, people end up doing IRC reviews. IRC is not a proper review platform either, especially not for drive-by contributions or people who don't have time to read 500 lines of scrollback or whatever. >> Do you think the usb-subsystem maintainer of the kernel is going to >> fiddle with the cryptography subsystem all by himself? That's not the >> case. And that's why the linux kernel workflow works: competence, >> subsystems and trust. > > As I pointed above comparision of Gentoo with Linux kernel is > invalid. We have different resources. Another argument that > connectivity between subsystems is much higher in the Linux kernel. > It is perfectly valid. It is a huge system just like gentoo. The workflow in detail might differ, but in the end we deliver a system that should be coherent and work. We have little to no QA on that and our workflow is one of the fundamental things that need to be fixed if we want that to change. If people say they don't care about it, that's fine. But then I'm not sure what we need a QA team for, except for running repoman on the tree. Unfortunately, repoman cannot tell you if an ebuild wipes your hard drive in pkg_postinst. >> All that is done in real world. And there are tons of tools to automated >> such a workflow easily without dumping everything to a single mailing list. > > Reviews cannot be automated. A human being is still needed to read, > understand and test proposed code. All tools like pull requests and > so automate only a small bit of real work. > You misread. I said the WORKFLOW can be automated. There are tools to do that. Neither bugzilla, nor CVS is one of them. We have enough google employees here in gentoo, who should be fairly familiar with these things. >> Global reviews will only happen when stuff is actually of global >> importance, like non-trivial eclass changes or far-reaching technical >> decisions. > > We already have that with gentoo-dev mail list. And I'm happy with > current solution. If you can't handle patchset from e-mails, learn > houw to use tools, e.g. quilt. > You misread again. I didn't say we lack a tool for global reviews. I said that ebuild reviews must not happen randomly on a single mailing list. That would be chaos. >> Other distros successfully use such workflows. > > Other distros are binary based. Last I checked exherbo is source based and has USE flags. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 12:26 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 12:50 ` hasufell @ 2015-04-21 10:33 ` Sergey Popov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Sergey Popov @ 2015-04-21 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 546 bytes --] 17.04.2015 15:26, Andrew Savchenko пишет: > Please point to exact projects and exact descriptions of workflow > processes. As for now I see none globally usable. While not strictly refer to ebuild's writing itself, Gentoo Security team has review workflow for publishing GLSAs. There should be at least two votes from team members on draft GLSA to release it. -- Best regards, Sergey Popov Gentoo developer Gentoo Desktop Effects project lead Gentoo Quality Assurance project lead Gentoo Proxy maintainers project lead [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 10:33 ` Alexander Berntsen @ 2015-04-17 19:14 ` Justin Bronder 2015-04-17 23:30 ` Kent Fredric 2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Justin Bronder @ 2015-04-17 19:14 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 970 bytes --] On 15/04/15 15:02 +0200, Peter Stuge wrote: > Yanestra wrote: > > after a talk with some of the persons present here, it appears, Gentoo > > Linux is actually something like a Freemason lodge. > > I disagree with this. > > I do agree that the threshold to become a developer with write access > to the gentoo repo is very high, which is why I'm not a developer, > although I use Gentoo tools and have been writing ebuilds for many years. > I don't have time for the overhead, so I just maintain my own overlay. You know, I keep seeing people state this as if it was an established fact, even developers themselves. Unless the process has changed drastically since I joined, the only lengthy part of joining is potentially waiting for the recruitment team to catch up on their backlog. If someone doesn't have a couple of hours to spend filling out the quizes and chatting with a recruiter I don't we're losing out on much. -- Justin Bronder [-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 181 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 19:14 ` [gentoo-dev] " Justin Bronder @ 2015-04-17 23:30 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-18 4:07 ` Rich Freeman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-17 23:30 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1866 bytes --] On 18 April 2015 at 07:14, Justin Bronder <jsbronder@gentoo.org> wrote: > Unless the process has changed > drastically since I joined, the only lengthy part of joining is > potentially waiting for the recruitment team to catch up on their > backlog. If someone doesn't have a couple of hours to spend filling out > the quizes and chatting with a recruiter I don't we're losing out on > much. > With all due respect, I myself find, and apparently others may also, that there is more to it than time investment. My impression I've garnered is that for some reason I can't devine, some people find them incredibly easy, and others find them soul-destroyingly hard. I am in the latter category. I can't profer an explanation for why this is, I really don't know, and If I told you I would be probably making up rationalisations after the fact. But I can state there are overlays I have *easily* invested *months* of aggregate time into them. I also have my doubts about the utility of the quizes being what they are for all people, as I doubt the format serves as either an educational tool, or a quality guard. The best argument I have for why the quizzes being what they are is they *require* you to engage with gentoo staff in order to get them answered, and thus ensure you know how to ask questions. But the content of the quizzes themselves seems easily forgotten ( And I recall reading dev mailing list entries from time to time on the nature of "How did you not know that, its in the quizzes!" :) ) Personally, I would see more value in a system where I learned the ropes by doing them, not by talking about them. Because I very seldom learn anything simply by reading and writing. Obviously that penchant is not for all people, because different people have different ways of learning things. -- Kent *KENTNL* - https://metacpan.org/author/KENTNL [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2928 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-17 23:30 ` Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-18 4:07 ` Rich Freeman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Rich Freeman @ 2015-04-18 4:07 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Kent Fredric <kentfredric@gmail.com> wrote: > > The best argument I have for why the quizzes being what they are is they > require you to engage with gentoo staff in order to get them answered, and > thus ensure you know how to ask questions. > That, and that you're able to interact with other developers, and know WHEN to ask questions. I'll take somebody who knows they can't write an ebuild and thus doesn't commit anything without getting it reviewed over somebody who think's they're God's gift to Gentoo and runs scripts that tweak half the tree without so much as a whisper on -dev in advance. The quizzes really are just a basic competency test combined with an interviewing tool. The recruiters need to assess responsibility/maturity, communication skills, and understanding of the fundamentals. Anybody can read the devmanual to brush up on some detail they forget. What we really need is somebody who realizes that they SHOULD read the devmanual. I'm not dismissing technical competence, especially the fundamentals. It just isn't the area that tends to actually get us in trouble. And if we did go with a more review-oriented workflow, it would actually increase the importance of the soft skills. A reviewer isn't just ensuring that libfoo builds - they're also coordinating with all the reverse dependency maintainers to ensure that they don't just break without warning. Look at it another way. I and just about everybody else with an @g.o address on this list basically has root access to every Gentoo box you use (unless you have your own rigorous QA process). You're putting a lot of trust in us. We owe it to you to ensure that somebody who is going to get upset and stick something nasty in an ebuild because they're having a bad day doesn't have commit rights. There are plenty of flame wars on the lists, and many differences of opinion. However, when it comes to the repository we really don't have much tolerance for messing around. Things like revert wars or reverts of QA commits need to be treated very seriously. So, that is part of why we have mentors/recruiters/interviews/etc. We'd like to get to know you. -- Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra 2015-04-15 6:40 ` Diamond 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge @ 2015-04-15 20:46 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-16 14:22 ` Bob Wya 3 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-15 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev El mié, 15-04-2015 a las 05:33 +0200, Yanestra escribió: > Hi, > > after a talk with some of the persons present here, it appears, Gentoo > Linux is actually something like a Freemason lodge. > > Many secrets, inaugurations, and obviously magic. > > People, I can only conclude you are not sane. > > This is absolutely ICK ... YOU ARE ICK !! > > Disgusting. > Personally I don't see the reason of all this blames... is there something we could do to help you or is this simply trolling? :/ There is no secrets and no "black magic", we are willing to help... what more do you want we do for you? :| (after hours of working I come back here and I see this complaints against a contributive work that is done by volunteers in their free time :|) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2015-04-15 20:46 ` [gentoo-dev] " Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-16 14:22 ` Bob Wya 2015-04-16 22:50 ` Kent Fredric 3 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Bob Wya @ 2015-04-16 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 251 bytes --] On 15 April 2015 at 04:33, Yanestra <wysiwyg@seismic.de> wrote: Blah, blah, blah... BLAH! Are you maintaining an overlay listed in Layman? If not then it's pretty obvious that you're just trolling the mailing list and wasting a lot of folk's time... [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 521 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-16 14:22 ` Bob Wya @ 2015-04-16 22:50 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-17 11:13 ` Andrew Savchenko 0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-16 22:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 724 bytes --] On 17 April 2015 at 02:22, Bob Wya <bob.mt.wya@gmail.com> wrote: > Are you maintaining an overlay listed in Layman? If not then it's pretty > obvious that > you're just trolling the mailing list and wasting a lot of folk's time... > I'm not sure that's the case. Its easy enough to maintain an overlay. Its easy enough to get yourself into the primary permission bits to be major contributor to an overlay listed in layman. But that doesn't really make you a useful gentoo developer, its just a stepping stone. The barrier to entry to making useful changes to the CVS tree is presently several orders of magnitude more daunting than contributing to an overlay. -- Kent *KENTNL* - https://metacpan.org/author/KENTNL [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1493 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-16 22:50 ` Kent Fredric @ 2015-04-17 11:13 ` Andrew Savchenko 0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Andrew Savchenko @ 2015-04-17 11:13 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1761 bytes --] Hi, On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:50:34 +1200 Kent Fredric wrote: > On 17 April 2015 at 02:22, Bob Wya <bob.mt.wya@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Are you maintaining an overlay listed in Layman? If not then it's pretty > > obvious that > > you're just trolling the mailing list and wasting a lot of folk's time... > > > > > I'm not sure that's the case. Its easy enough to maintain an overlay. Its > easy enough to get yourself into the primary permission bits to be major > contributor to an overlay listed in layman. > > But that doesn't really make you a useful gentoo developer, its just a > stepping stone. > > The barrier to entry to making useful changes to the CVS tree is presently > several orders of magnitude more daunting than contributing to an overlay. Nevertheless it is quite doable. And from my personal experience it is definitely worth it. Before becoming a dev I had my own overlay in layman for years. Training gives you a much deeper understanding of both development process and community relations, this is like an evolution to another step. As for overlays, their function is important, but should not be overestimated. In my vision main function of overlays is sandboxing. Sandboxing in many aspects: for either packages too new or immature to be added to the main tree; or for contributions from interested users who are still not devs; or, perhaps, for packages with too small target audience to care enough to put them to the tree. I don't believe in talks about "high quality overlays". All overlays I ever tried have lesser quality than the main tree, though some are a bit lesser, while others are horrible. Of course there may be exceptions, but I know none. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-12 12:17 [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? Yanestra 2015-04-12 13:08 ` Pacho Ramos @ 2015-04-13 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell 2015-04-13 12:20 ` Patrice Clement 1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Daniel Campbell @ 2015-04-13 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 04/12/2015 05:17 AM, Yanestra wrote: > Hi, > > I am long time user of Gentoo and I tinker with the idea of becoming > Gentoo developer. > > I am a software developer by profession, but I am not quite sure if I > should involve with Gentoo ebuild development. > > To be honest, I have not the slightest imagination what becoming a > Gentoo developer might mean. Things seem to be abhorringly complicated. > > As far as I understand, there are developers, proxy developers, then > there is something like Project Sunrise which I don't understand. > > There are apparently several different portage source repositories, > basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far > as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and > somewhere subversion seems to linger. > > And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or > strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall > structure. > > Can someone please tell me where to start becoming a developer? Do there > exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? > > Why is there such a chaos? > > Thanks! > As someone who is undergoing their IRC interview soon, I think I can answer some of these questions: * There are developers, proxy-maintainers, and the Sunrise project. Developers have access to the main Gentoo repository of ebuilds and do their best to maintain a quality tree. Proxy-maintainers are regular Gentoo users who "adopt" packages and pledge to help Gentoo developers in maintaining them until either they become a developer themselves or until another developer adopts the package officially. The Sunrise project is a separate tree where developers and users collaborate in getting new or specialized packages into a semi-official repository. Developers assist users in getting ebuilds up to snuff and help them build practical skills in contributing to Gentoo in a more structured manner. * Documentation, like the rest of Gentoo, is powered by volunteers. If you find any missing, erroneous, or outdated information, please file a bug or, if you have permissions on the Wiki, edit it yourself! * The general structure of Gentoo as an organization is somewhat simple. The Council makes all the big and important decisions, while developers have their own "herds" for specific goals (say, the perl, lisp, java, and games herds), which also correspond to projects with the same goals. The Foundation exists to give Gentoo adequate monetary and legal support in carrying out its goals as a distribution. Everything else is pretty much just a bunch of developers working together. * Gentoo's official tree is in CVS for now, but there is a git migration planned. I don't know the timing or exact plans for the immediate future, but my guess is things will be switching to git over the long term once logistic problems are solved. SVN repositories are available over layman only, as far as I'm aware. * Layman itself is a way to activate other repositories. That method is partially deprecated in favor of /etc/repos.conf/ files, which allow for greater, clearer control over repositories. Current releases of layman will interface with the new way of managing, and there are tools in place to make migration (mostly) painless. * The way to begin your journey to become a developer lies mostly in just helping out Gentoo, studying the Devmanual [0], and contacting recruiters to see if there is a mentor available for you. If you're interested in becoming an ebuild developer, you should try out the ebuild quiz [1]. For the most part it just takes a cautious and attentive eye, some adequate knowledge of bash, and familiarity with common building and admin tools. Since you're a developer by trade, I'm sure it wouldn't be a big problem for you to reach developer status. It takes time and effort, but in my personal opinion it's been worth every moment. I hope this helps! ~Daniel [0] https://devmanual.gentoo.org [1] https://wwwold.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-13 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell @ 2015-04-13 12:20 ` Patrice Clement 2015-04-13 12:37 ` Patrice Clement 0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread From: Patrice Clement @ 2015-04-13 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Monday 13 Apr 2015 03:27:19, Daniel Campbell wrote : > On 04/12/2015 05:17 AM, Yanestra wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am long time user of Gentoo and I tinker with the idea of becoming > > Gentoo developer. > > > > I am a software developer by profession, but I am not quite sure if I > > should involve with Gentoo ebuild development. > > > > To be honest, I have not the slightest imagination what becoming a > > Gentoo developer might mean. Things seem to be abhorringly complicated. > > > > As far as I understand, there are developers, proxy developers, then > > there is something like Project Sunrise which I don't understand. > > > > There are apparently several different portage source repositories, > > basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far > > as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and > > somewhere subversion seems to linger. > > > > And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or > > strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall > > structure. > > > > Can someone please tell me where to start becoming a developer? Do there > > exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? > > > > Why is there such a chaos? > > > > Thanks! > > > > As someone who is undergoing their IRC interview soon, I think I can > answer some of these questions: > > * There are developers, proxy-maintainers, and the Sunrise project. > Developers have access to the main Gentoo repository of ebuilds and do > their best to maintain a quality tree. Proxy-maintainers are regular > Gentoo users who "adopt" packages and pledge to help Gentoo developers > in maintaining them until either they become a developer themselves or > until another developer adopts the package officially. The Sunrise > project is a separate tree where developers and users collaborate in > getting new or specialized packages into a semi-official repository. > Developers assist users in getting ebuilds up to snuff and help them > build practical skills in contributing to Gentoo in a more structured > manner. > > * Documentation, like the rest of Gentoo, is powered by volunteers. If > you find any missing, erroneous, or outdated information, please file a > bug or, if you have permissions on the Wiki, edit it yourself! > > * The general structure of Gentoo as an organization is somewhat simple. > The Council makes all the big and important decisions, while developers > have their own "herds" for specific goals (say, the perl, lisp, java, > and games herds), which also correspond to projects with the same goals. > The Foundation exists to give Gentoo adequate monetary and legal support > in carrying out its goals as a distribution. Everything else is pretty > much just a bunch of developers working together. > > * Gentoo's official tree is in CVS for now, but there is a git migration > planned. I don't know the timing or exact plans for the immediate > future, but my guess is things will be switching to git over the long > term once logistic problems are solved. SVN repositories are available > over layman only, as far as I'm aware. > > * Layman itself is a way to activate other repositories. That method is > partially deprecated in favor of /etc/repos.conf/ files, which allow for > greater, clearer control over repositories. Current releases of layman > will interface with the new way of managing, and there are tools in > place to make migration (mostly) painless. > > * The way to begin your journey to become a developer lies mostly in > just helping out Gentoo, studying the Devmanual [0], and contacting > recruiters to see if there is a mentor available for you. > > If you're interested in becoming an ebuild developer, you should try out > the ebuild quiz [1]. For the most part it just takes a cautious and > attentive eye, some adequate knowledge of bash, and familiarity with > common building and admin tools. Since you're a developer by trade, I'm > sure it wouldn't be a big problem for you to reach developer status. It > takes time and effort, but in my personal opinion it's been worth every > moment. > > I hope this helps! > > ~Daniel > > [0] https://devmanual.gentoo.org > [1] https://wwwold.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt > Hi Yanestra Daniel summed it up pretty well: becoming a dev is a long and lengthy process but worth it in the end cause you'll get to meet smart and passionate folks along the path. However, I'd like to point out yet another URL nobody has mentioned so far: bugzilla [2] aka the Gentoo bug tracking system. There are always tons of bugs waiting to get picked up. You're a software developer by profession so I would advise you to look for bugs that lie in your field of interest. Gentoo isn't one "big" aggregate of developers. We're broken down into small teams of people working on a specific topic. You can check out the list of "Projects" here [3]. For instance do you like Perl? Help out the Perl team package Perl packages. Or maybe you're a Pythonista? Give the Python team a hand. And so on and so forth. Pick something you like and get involved. :) Patrice [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/ [3] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? 2015-04-13 12:20 ` Patrice Clement @ 2015-04-13 12:37 ` Patrice Clement 0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread From: Patrice Clement @ 2015-04-13 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev If, by any chance, you happen to like Java, we're looking for fresh blood. We're kinda short of manpower in the team at the moment: with over 1000 bugs assigned to java@g.o, any form of help is welcome. Further, you'll get to work on maintaining some of Chewi's ebuilds, some of which encompass Minecraft. (you might wonder: who's interested in playing Minecraft on Gentoo? I asked myself the same question till I bumped into Chewi..) Patrice Monday 13 Apr 2015 14:20:56, Patrice Clement wrote : > Monday 13 Apr 2015 03:27:19, Daniel Campbell wrote : > > On 04/12/2015 05:17 AM, Yanestra wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am long time user of Gentoo and I tinker with the idea of becoming > > > Gentoo developer. > > > > > > I am a software developer by profession, but I am not quite sure if I > > > should involve with Gentoo ebuild development. > > > > > > To be honest, I have not the slightest imagination what becoming a > > > Gentoo developer might mean. Things seem to be abhorringly complicated. > > > > > > As far as I understand, there are developers, proxy developers, then > > > there is something like Project Sunrise which I don't understand. > > > > > > There are apparently several different portage source repositories, > > > basing on different software, and furthermore, there is layman. As far > > > as I remember, portage is stored in cvs, where there is also git, and > > > somewhere subversion seems to linger. > > > > > > And there is lots of documentation that appears to be outdated or > > > strangely unattached to questions concerning organisation and overall > > > structure. > > > > > > Can someone please tell me where to start becoming a developer? Do there > > > exist something like quality guidelines for ebuilds? > > > > > > Why is there such a chaos? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > As someone who is undergoing their IRC interview soon, I think I can > > answer some of these questions: > > > > * There are developers, proxy-maintainers, and the Sunrise project. > > Developers have access to the main Gentoo repository of ebuilds and do > > their best to maintain a quality tree. Proxy-maintainers are regular > > Gentoo users who "adopt" packages and pledge to help Gentoo developers > > in maintaining them until either they become a developer themselves or > > until another developer adopts the package officially. The Sunrise > > project is a separate tree where developers and users collaborate in > > getting new or specialized packages into a semi-official repository. > > Developers assist users in getting ebuilds up to snuff and help them > > build practical skills in contributing to Gentoo in a more structured > > manner. > > > > * Documentation, like the rest of Gentoo, is powered by volunteers. If > > you find any missing, erroneous, or outdated information, please file a > > bug or, if you have permissions on the Wiki, edit it yourself! > > > > * The general structure of Gentoo as an organization is somewhat simple. > > The Council makes all the big and important decisions, while developers > > have their own "herds" for specific goals (say, the perl, lisp, java, > > and games herds), which also correspond to projects with the same goals. > > The Foundation exists to give Gentoo adequate monetary and legal support > > in carrying out its goals as a distribution. Everything else is pretty > > much just a bunch of developers working together. > > > > * Gentoo's official tree is in CVS for now, but there is a git migration > > planned. I don't know the timing or exact plans for the immediate > > future, but my guess is things will be switching to git over the long > > term once logistic problems are solved. SVN repositories are available > > over layman only, as far as I'm aware. > > > > * Layman itself is a way to activate other repositories. That method is > > partially deprecated in favor of /etc/repos.conf/ files, which allow for > > greater, clearer control over repositories. Current releases of layman > > will interface with the new way of managing, and there are tools in > > place to make migration (mostly) painless. > > > > * The way to begin your journey to become a developer lies mostly in > > just helping out Gentoo, studying the Devmanual [0], and contacting > > recruiters to see if there is a mentor available for you. > > > > If you're interested in becoming an ebuild developer, you should try out > > the ebuild quiz [1]. For the most part it just takes a cautious and > > attentive eye, some adequate knowledge of bash, and familiarity with > > common building and admin tools. Since you're a developer by trade, I'm > > sure it wouldn't be a big problem for you to reach developer status. It > > takes time and effort, but in my personal opinion it's been worth every > > moment. > > > > I hope this helps! > > > > ~Daniel > > > > [0] https://devmanual.gentoo.org > > [1] https://wwwold.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt > > > Hi Yanestra > > Daniel summed it up pretty well: becoming a dev is a long and lengthy process > but worth it in the end cause you'll get to meet smart and passionate folks > along the path. > > However, I'd like to point out yet another URL nobody has mentioned so far: > bugzilla [2] aka the Gentoo bug tracking system. There are always tons of bugs > waiting to get picked up. You're a software developer by profession so I would > advise you to look for bugs that lie in your field of interest. Gentoo isn't > one "big" aggregate of developers. We're broken down into small teams of people > working on a specific topic. You can check out the list of "Projects" here [3]. > For instance do you like Perl? Help out the Perl team package Perl packages. Or > maybe you're a Pythonista? Give the Python team a hand. And so on and so forth. > > Pick something you like and get involved. :) > > Patrice > > [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/ > [3] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-04-21 10:33 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 41+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2015-04-12 12:17 [gentoo-dev] Becoming a Gentoo developer? Yanestra 2015-04-12 13:08 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-12 14:27 ` Yanestra 2015-04-12 14:44 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-12 15:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-15 3:33 ` Yanestra 2015-04-15 6:40 ` Diamond 2015-04-15 13:02 ` Peter Stuge 2015-04-16 17:27 ` hasufell 2015-04-16 22:59 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-17 19:38 ` Pacho Ramos 2015-04-17 21:09 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-18 9:45 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 10:33 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 11:00 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 11:12 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand 2015-04-17 11:14 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 12:26 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 12:50 ` hasufell 2015-04-17 14:33 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-17 14:41 ` Alexander Berntsen 2015-04-17 17:15 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-18 9:15 ` hasufell 2015-04-18 9:26 ` Patrick Lauer 2015-04-18 12:35 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-18 13:03 ` hasufell 2015-04-18 14:35 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-17 21:12 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2015-04-17 23:16 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-18 9:10 ` hasufell 2015-04-21 10:33 ` Sergey Popov 2015-04-17 19:14 ` [gentoo-dev] " Justin Bronder 2015-04-17 23:30 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-18 4:07 ` Rich Freeman 2015-04-15 20:46 ` [gentoo-dev] " Pacho Ramos 2015-04-16 14:22 ` Bob Wya 2015-04-16 22:50 ` Kent Fredric 2015-04-17 11:13 ` Andrew Savchenko 2015-04-13 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell 2015-04-13 12:20 ` Patrice Clement 2015-04-13 12:37 ` Patrice Clement
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