From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C02B1381F3 for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 11:15:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 47F8DE0C0F; Sun, 26 May 2013 11:15:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F42E0B10 for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 11:15:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (178-37-163-206.adsl.inetia.pl [178.37.163.206]) (using SSLv3 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mgorny) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5487933DF2D; Sun, 26 May 2013 11:15:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 13:15:57 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?B?TWljaGGzIEfzcm55?= To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Cc: lu_zero@gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Reusing systemd unit file format / forking systemd Message-ID: <20130526131557.15a599b8@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <51A1E2B7.5020803@gentoo.org> References: <20130526093755.42b62259@gentoo.org> <51A1E2B7.5020803@gentoo.org> Organization: Gentoo X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0 (GTK+ 2.24.18; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA512; boundary="Sig_/SwjGiNIoCstdXpsu9tVI5.1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: c5957e6c-6b6f-4754-8984-3e224216e5fb X-Archives-Hash: 789ca27aea24600837d32a10fb9276d0 --Sig_/SwjGiNIoCstdXpsu9tVI5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 26 May 2013 12:23:51 +0200 Luca Barbato wrote: > On 5/26/13 9:37 AM, Micha=B3 G=F3rny wrote: > > By the way, we should really keep the separation between systemd itself > > and the unit files. I agree that systemd is not the best thing we could > > have. But the unit file format is, er, good enough -- and has > > the advantage of eventually taking a lot of work from our shoulders. >=20 > Unit files had been considered when I started exploring the idea, sadly=20 > Joost shown me their limitation wouldn't make people life exactly happy. There are always people who are unhappy with anything you'd change. Sometimes it's just about changing the way you see things. I can't tell more without knowing the details though. > > First of all, working on it will require a lot of work. Seeing how > > large systemd become and how rapidly it is developing, establishing > > a good alternative (even dropping such useless parts as the Journal) > > will take at least twice that work. >=20 > You make clean blueprints, get enough people agreeing with them and=20 > implement simple workalike for what you care about. >=20 > For example logind seems to be the current fad. You're probably right here. But I would have to have the time to work on it, and as you probably noticed I'm engaged in too many projects right now. > > The systemd haters will refuse the project because of its resemblance > > to systemd. The systemd lovers will refuse it because of its > > resemblance to systemd. And the OpenRC lovers will want to design it > > to resemble OpenRC which is just pointless. Then the few remaining > > people will find systemd 'good enough'. >=20 > systemd haters, as you name them, could be split in few groups: >=20 > - those that consider systemd a bad idea because it is a single item=20 > with many parts that would break horribly, if your idea is to make it=20 > less tightly coupled and with less parts many would consider helping. >=20 > - those that consider systemd a bad idea because of the force feeding=20 > theme started with udev incorporation and continued with logind and=20 > such, again if you are creating alternatives the people would help gladly. >=20 > - those that consider key part of systemd just wrong the limitation in=20 > the unit format or path activation as panacea, in that case you have to=20 > make clear the scope of your project, you might win few or lose some. You are right again. The outcome would be probably a very modular project which some parts will be used more frequently and others infrequently. But the fact is -- that as far as I see it -- we should be working on replacing all of systemd components. Mixing tightly-coupled parts of systemd with external replacements seems wrong. > > And even if there are a few people who will want to work on it, > > and design a 'good systemd', they wouldn't get much appreciation. > > Fedora definitely won't care for it. It would have to be really > > definitely awesome for most Linux distros to even notice it. > > And I doubt *BSD people would be interested in something external. >=20 > Make it bsd and they would consider helping. I'm not really sure about this. For some of the components probably yes. But the general init replacement / unit runner is not something I'd expect much help with. > > So there's a lot of work, no fame or money in it, and most likely more > > work being the only future. Anyone volunteering? >=20 > Probably would be better sit down, figure out exactly what you want and=20 > see who has interest: >=20 > E.g. >=20 > Init-project >=20 > - portable -> must work on non-linux and non-glibc more or less decently > - modular -> loose coupling of functionality > - robust -> the core functionality must not crash or remain=20 > inconsistent because of libdbus or such often occurring problems=20 > unrelated to > - compatible -> should grok at least a good subset of systemd unit files. Quite a good summary, I'd say. > On a side note I really want to know in detail why you loathe openrc=20 > with this strength but we can discuss on irc. I'd suspect this is mostly with the growing irritation of systemd haters who spawn endless threads about how they hate anything with 'systemd' name in it. Plus the people who try hard to port the mistakes of OpenRC init scripts to systemd services files. I have my limits, and I'd really prefer doing something useful rather than setting up random things straight, fighting developers and making sure everything keeps working in a semi-sane way. --=20 Best regards, Micha=B3 G=F3rny --Sig_/SwjGiNIoCstdXpsu9tVI5.1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJRoe7tXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ1RUJGMjBGOTk2RkIzQzIyQ0M2RkNBNDBC QUJGMUQ1RkY4QzgxMTBBAAoJELq/HV/4yBEK4NUQANVSnjlT8PfujNXyiM9n2c1W wy8Lz5FyIexw013ZAYomDI794qIUZ46pzCuAaEIbvz1i1yQXuSKhU/GAwTyM4MX9 +VB2d9FDdkjmRhV1EqVVwt/SU6O7GHOpcKPKG9z3MYWAmHjTCSS4sUQmuz3i4vYW me9VMRbNpKGd6//sg9x9fylx6I9rHZzCZBD5/5wF+Y8X99eU3DjCnoFCJhMlCqni WVITTRrSkQyaTdeIdAQHSujON3+dMzzpwmnPvJIsk6m/NVZDdNemPrQ3SE5HzliL z3C2E8Dkb4tm+Y0SNgMBPbgKKveJsiFrKTQ1EmvU2vXthK+gTaf6pAwAcLiSW5cY Wx8mc9apDJISAwT/plI5+o+LL4JerkDLET1AzLaYLrLyULSpnkbAgXagvfF34q4+ Q1ubWcHh7qyi5iu3Ni0YF3JMDD6i06U9C4CCulpwulkPu5fAHSyEaUs2+GC3xtCT 2GyK6jdHCBwmuxZg30aVM1cSz2GuZmzgT/Gq2fEDKGU3zFgl7WsT1xT2MIPjXw4d Ltg1/qVRrig2uCEwui5ML67/U+sT8Fi3pVwPaeD2q+r98dnXLLxlAUJZgU6pn4h3 7c8+GhAS60+DVau0wZWUUIYksH0qe30oGb93HgoSLj84PsLe2QHTBaQSxNOVQK2R zJjixx0s6a6mWI3RO51i =+lwW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/SwjGiNIoCstdXpsu9tVI5.1--