From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05A61381F3 for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 07:50:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3BFF9E0CE7; Sun, 26 May 2013 07:50:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34B15E0C0F for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 07:50:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (178-37-163-206.adsl.inetia.pl [178.37.163.206]) (using SSLv3 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mgorny) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 629B833DF00; Sun, 26 May 2013 07:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:37:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?B?TWljaGGzIEfzcm55?= To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Cc: yngwin@gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-dev] Reusing systemd unit file format / forking systemd (was: Going against co-maintainer's wishes (ref. bug 412697)) Message-ID: <20130526093755.42b62259@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Gentoo X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0 (GTK+ 2.24.18; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA512; boundary="Sig_/3B8lFOzeo8if=g3nVMRsE/X"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: 95fb1edf-555d-4227-bc3f-7db9b0351856 X-Archives-Hash: 04945276f96020a713ca2cb9dc193230 --Sig_/3B8lFOzeo8if=g3nVMRsE/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 26 May 2013 00:14:36 +0800 Ben de Groot wrote: > Systemd is diametrically opposed to the FreeBSD, customization, > extreme configurability, and top-notch developer community aspects of > that. Systemd upstream developers have made it abundantly clear they > are not interested in working with Gentoo developers to see to the > needs of source-based distros. They stand for vertical integration > instead of customization and configurability. >=20 > And you misunderstood: it is systemd that is aggressively opposed to > Gentoo. But apparently that doesn't bother some of our developers and > Gentoo is becoming more and more welcoming to it. By the way, we should really keep the separation between systemd itself and the unit files. I agree that systemd is not the best thing we could have. But the unit file format is, er, good enough -- and has the advantage of eventually taking a lot of work from our shoulders. Although some of the ideas (esp. wrt targets) are near to crazy and awfully hard to understand, that's what we have and trying to do something else is eventually going to make people's lives harder. We should *really* work on supporting the unit files within OpenRC (aside to init.d files). That's a way to at least: a) reuse the work that has been done upstream already (when it was done), b) have common service names and startup behavior in all relevant distros (which is really beneficial to the users). Considering the design of OpenRC itself, it wouldn't be *that hard*. Actually, a method similar to one used in oldnet would simply work. That is, symlinking init.d files to a common 'systemd-wrapper' executable which would parse the unit files. On the completely different topic, I agree that systemd design is far from the best and the way it's maintained is just bad. I was interested in the past in creating an improved alternative using compatible file format and libraries, while choosing a better design, improving portability and keeping stuff less integrated. But the fact is -- I doubt it will make sense, much like the eudev project. And it will take much more work, and give much less appreciation. First of all, working on it will require a lot of work. Seeing how large systemd become and how rapidly it is developing, establishing a good alternative (even dropping such useless parts as the Journal) will take at least twice that work. Then, it will require people working on it. People who know the details of various systems and who are willing to spend their time on it. And there wouldn't be much of people really willing to work on it. The systemd haters will refuse the project because of its resemblance to systemd. The systemd lovers will refuse it because of its resemblance to systemd. And the OpenRC lovers will want to design it to resemble OpenRC which is just pointless. Then the few remaining people will find systemd 'good enough'. And even if there are a few people who will want to work on it, and design a 'good systemd', they wouldn't get much appreciation. Fedora definitely won't care for it. It would have to be really definitely awesome for most Linux distros to even notice it. And I doubt *BSD people would be interested in something external. It is possible that systemd upstream will steal a few patches or ideas from it. Yet they will never apply any of the really important changes, so the project will have to be maintained indefinitely. The only hope for it would be to win over systemd users which I doubt will happen. So there's a lot of work, no fame or money in it, and most likely more work being the only future. Anyone volunteering? --=20 Best regards, Micha=B3 G=F3rny --Sig_/3B8lFOzeo8if=g3nVMRsE/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJRobvTXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ1RUJGMjBGOTk2RkIzQzIyQ0M2RkNBNDBC QUJGMUQ1RkY4QzgxMTBBAAoJELq/HV/4yBEKN+gQAOP+WDo3a6gjKiHT1mUkV9/R Fp6AUCwYhbiCO0+6NoCuaP2V9/nOSo+LSn0fIh/JMEFw6TaTVGIDMbbVEDZKc0E0 lNDiLAQ121BlSBRPtOARnvUCfh3qn1L45v4NAhY7t/TVvPaZc1h3cp8c0j0AAH2g a13CFlUEpKi33Ec5GLWjMxjWeakoqS1mw5SNc6O9QtzpbhWf4EP81k4osksJNs/o 6WWRrEPcqCUsYoX7znDzeX95A3bAUv1+mIa6MaQFhOt+HllPeuoCzXv0kClnRapv G0j5+7LjnozDepW+jz6sXjJRI4nbCQmE39NkoUhNImucGs2FhuEbkGDmGxu6FXIT /4sgPqqqBC0fPp3+8j32OMGKyoT3PBiwHkXXH1xKXxPCRI+NTbyU99Kt3MSKAjlC BhQoWopIdH2mzyewCuiTaaJyNDI0Ke/+xHy2k6Wib9vBc3WfdN9khNFei0CC1Rwe v+vZ6bcNvnbUQEDqMcmWX/f4C5ai6MsyW7hWFJf+EuxfyQ8XMTBic+1J+PNmz3L4 HJHB08NtFTM4QgRppv0Lx6/CpdDITQZTVXMR2rB7JbeXStBc2+UsE9LQ9DdBYgRo 9PdhGoA0dH7BWNV1kuu+1yn/rKGSFwUKTjTE45hunjtNxS71TTfc4gsNY8NTa/Px R+Jnfu8PVtRb5pjwMw3g =Yf6X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/3B8lFOzeo8if=g3nVMRsE/X--