From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325FB1381F3 for ; Sat, 18 May 2013 03:45:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4495FE090F; Sat, 18 May 2013 03:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 537B4E08E9 for ; Sat, 18 May 2013 03:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id va2so5430418obc.13 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 20:45:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-type :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=UMH9ePSELduzzO1kJ7mZ/S6dQQE9xIs86ge8JqtUFF0=; b=go4IgJOKw89QV1tP20Onj9R97IfnDpyKf0yPRxGpbHuBlNIyRri1rkMHHYnM/Aux5H 50IVxvYVutPgGCgEeubZqCxoZ+xiUL3Ui7LBm5XiJOgpIJ6U4tR5eQPbft3mHxr8WnBI BcjbhgttYHC9sCzvNA9C4fOW05MyWCh4TcW91C8ilznx+5OKFGjY3DjIBZeGX9Dfp0Gd Lm1AKhdd7W74LT1QeH99lzZWXBrYY8AygzcZouUVEEivnS7/qNiAbR0B2OY/re7R8J8n EVuWymRK1M8UeK/gDa/rWIuQpMCyLT+YibD3V6UxBeBuHqNkFBiGWtWuysLq0IDkw5Gl PZ8w== X-Received: by 10.60.137.198 with SMTP id qk6mr24481482oeb.18.1368848723358; Fri, 17 May 2013 20:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux1 (cpe-76-187-91-128.tx.res.rr.com. [76.187.91.128]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nt17sm10066802obb.13.2013.05.17.20.45.19 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 May 2013 20:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: William Hubbs Received: by linux1 (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 17 May 2013 22:45:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:45:18 -0500 From: William Hubbs To: gentoo development Cc: "Steven J. Long" Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users Message-ID: <20130518034518.GA1466@linux1> Mail-Followup-To: gentoo development , "Steven J. Long" References: <518A8901.6030302@gmail.com> <20130510094500.62b0c958@sera-20.lan> <5191F8B7.9080006@gentoo.org> <20130515141755.4d53f21e@gentoo.org> <20130515181813.GA27396@waltdnes.org> <20130516012008.GC8711@linux1> <519436FA.3070605@gentoo.org> <20130517005841.GA1491@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130517005841.GA1491@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Archives-Salt: 7289f2e8-e054-45d2-a930-aa0d20bcf000 X-Archives-Hash: 20eff4c08497953aa967bb44e01bb88b --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 01:58:41AM +0100, Steven J. Long wrote: > > William Hubbs wrote: > > > waltdnes wrote: > > >> Question... when Sun made OpenOffice depend on Java (also a Sun > > >> product) did Gentoo developers run around suggesting that Java be ma= de a > > >> part of the core Gentoo base system? I don't think so. If a user w= ants > > >> to run GNOME badly enough, he'll switch to systemd. I don't see why= the > > >> rest of us (i.e. non-users of GNOME) should have to follow along and > > >> reconfigure our systems. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. > > > =20 > > > I don't interpret what he is saying that way. I think what he is > > > talking about is that we are trying to get teams to support non-syst= emd > > > setups when upstreams do not, like with gnome. > > >=20 > > > Gnome now has a hard dependency on systemd (for gnome newer than 3.8= ). > > > Some folks want to use gnome without systemd and are putting that un= der > > > the gentoo is about choice banner and want us to support them. >=20 > I haven't seen anyone say that in this entire discussion, but I might have > missed something. "If a user wants to run GNOME, he [can] switch to syste= md" > is clearly not saying that, so we're left with an enigmatic "some" who ha= ven't > posted to this thread, afaics. =20 The point I'm trying to make here is that for gnome >=3D3.8, upstream gnome does not support running gnome without systemd afaik. > It's clear to me that users have been forced through lots of changes over= the > last 5 years, even where we just want to carry on using our machines the = way > we always have. Isn't that what convenience layers are about? So Walter's > point stands. No it doesn't, because Gentoo Linux isn't requiring you to run systemd. =20 > > >> Fabio Erculiani wrote > > >>> So what do we want to do then? Isolate from the rest of the world? > > >>> (It's not a sarcastic question). I hope that everybody does their > > >>> own reality check. >=20 > Gnome can depend on w/e upstream require. How is that the whole world? > It's not even the whole Linux ecosystem, and I can't see Qt giving up cro= ss- > platform independence, just to work with systemd. That was never going to > happen, so it was never going to happen in KDE either, however enthused a > few of its volunteers were, since KDE is a showcase for Qt. >=20 > You're right: reality-checks are clearly needed all over the place. >=20 > > >> You are effectively calling not-using-GNOME isolationist. Let's j= ust > > >> say I disagree with you on that. BTW, see my sig. >=20 > It's clear to me that systemd devs are the real isolationists: everyone > else has to do everything their way, or they'll throw their toys out of t= he > pram, including the ones they stole. The real trouble with "N+1 True Way"= is > the contortions it forces them through, as they explain why "this time" t= hey've > got it right, and how badly they got it wrong last time. >=20 > That wouldn't be an issue-- everyone makes mistakes-- if they hadn't rubb= ished > everyone else who pointed out issues along the way. After a few years of = that, > sorry but enough already. >=20 > Matthew Thode wrote: > > If upstream gnome has that dep on systemd then I kinda think we should > > too (technical decision, not one I like personally) >=20 > I think we should too: all anyone has said is "Gnome is not Linux". Prese= nting > its choices as representative of every DE and upstream project is simply > misleading. =20 I haven't done that, and I don't know of anyone else who has. > Claiming that making it easier to use systemd is in everyone's interests = is > clearly untrue as well, since many of us our interests are caught up with= a > modular system we can build and configure how we require. That's why we c= ame to > Gentoo, and why we stay. =20 No one is arguing against that. All this thread is about is making systemd a first-class citizen, like OpenRC/Sysvinit, so it will be as smooth as possible for someone who wants to switch between the two. > But I'm sure someone will declaim about how systemd doesn't force anythin= g on > anyone (leveraging udev builds against your explicit word, doesn't count,= nor do > any of the other changes like requiring an initramfs where none was neede= d before: > those are just things you should do because we tell you to) and Lennartwa= re > hasn't already forced major changes and upgrade pain, for no tangible ben= efit to > the desktop-users it was purportedly aimed at. Systemd has nothing to do with requiring an initramfs, so please de-couple those issues. Yes, the systemd devs are the ones who wrote up the issues around why an initramfs should be used if /usr is separate, but systemd itself doesn't care. William --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGW+U4ACgkQblQW9DDEZTjiuQCgkiE7rd6ac4hXOXfgYPXJI8lM GVQAn3A3YRRIzJr/EFj71ZQr5UzqqEy1 =1sMQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb--