[gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Doug Goldstein]

One of the reasons people volunteer in open source projects is to
scratch their personal itch. When that itch develops into a festering,
gangrenous limb it becomes time to amputate it. That is what I am
doing with my involvement in x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers. As a result
someone will need to work with spock and rej to figure out what
aspects they are able to maintain and then maintain the components
they aren't able to. For example, different hardware has different
series of drivers to support it.

-- 
Doug Goldstein

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Mike Gilbert]

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org> wrote:
> One of the reasons people volunteer in open source projects is to
> scratch their personal itch. When that itch develops into a festering,
> gangrenous limb it becomes time to amputate it. That is what I am
> doing with my involvement in x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers. As a result
> someone will need to work with spock and rej to figure out what
> aspects they are able to maintain and then maintain the components
> they aren't able to. For example, different hardware has different
> series of drivers to support it.

Thanks for sticking with it as long as you have.

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Sonntag, 3. März 2013, 15:39:16 schrieb Doug Goldstein:
> One of the reasons people volunteer in open source projects is to
> scratch their personal itch. When that itch develops into a festering,
> gangrenous limb it becomes time to amputate it. That is what I am
> doing with my involvement in x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers. As a result
> someone will need to work with spock and rej to figure out what
> aspects they are able to maintain and then maintain the components
> they aren't able to. For example, different hardware has different
> series of drivers to support it.

Just as a side note spock was retired (bug closed about a week ago).

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 03/03/2013 04:39 PM, Doug Goldstein wrote:
> One of the reasons people volunteer in open source projects is to
> scratch their personal itch. When that itch develops into a festering,
> gangrenous limb it becomes time to amputate it. That is what I am
> doing with my involvement in x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers. As a result
> someone will need to work with spock and rej to figure out what
> aspects they are able to maintain and then maintain the components
> they aren't able to. For example, different hardware has different
> series of drivers to support it.
> 

Cardoe,

I am sorry that this package has been such a headache for you,
unfortunately binary drivers (especially) are often like that. Thanks
for all your hard work keeping this usable.

I make no promises as to my level of success, but I am willing to fight
the fight. I'm adding myself as maintainer, but as always, I welcome
help from others.

- -Zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 15:39:16 -0600
Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org> wrote:

> One of the reasons people volunteer in open source projects is to
> scratch their personal itch. When that itch develops into a festering,
> gangrenous limb it becomes time to amputate it. That is what I am
> doing with my involvement in x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers.

Sad, but understandable.

> As a result someone will need to work with spock and rej to figure

jer and xarthisius

> out what aspects they are able to maintain and then maintain the
> components they aren't able to. For example, different hardware has
> different series of drivers to support it.

I still happen to run all the hardware to test all of the major versions
currently supported upstream.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 10:48:07PM -0500, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote

> I am sorry that this package has been such a headache for you,
> unfortunately binary drivers (especially) are often like that. Thanks
> for all your hard work keeping this usable.

  I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
"the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
1) direct kernel access like now
2) access via the HAL/shim

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Carlos Silva]

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On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

>   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> 1) direct kernel access like now
> 2) access via the HAL/shim


Just read this file and you'll have the answer:
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Alexandre Rostovtsev]

On Mon, 2013-03-04 at 11:28 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 10:48:07PM -0500, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote
> 
> > I am sorry that this package has been such a headache for you,
> > unfortunately binary drivers (especially) are often like that. Thanks
> > for all your hard work keeping this usable.
> 
>   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> 1) direct kernel access like now
> 2) access via the HAL/shim

For video drivers, there are only a few things that can be abstracted
away, e.g. hardware access synchronization, DMA, power management, a
memory manager for GPUs without dedicated video memory. And the kernel
already does have an API for this, called DRM (direct rendering
manager); see https://www.kernel.org/doc/htmldocs/drm.html

However, nvidia-drivers does not use this API, probably because they
want to share code between their Linux and Windows drivers, and the
Linux kernel's DRM API is too different from what Windows does. In
addition, there might be licensing issues: I once read an argument that
if a proprietary kernel module is too closely integrated with features
that exists only in the Linux kernel and that cannot be applicable to
other operating systems, the module might legally become a derived work
of the Linux kernel, and so would need to be open-sourced under the GPL.

[gentoo-dev] Re: maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Duncan]

Walter Dnes posted on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:28:50 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 10:48:07PM -0500, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote
> 
>> I am sorry that this package has been such a headache for you,
>> unfortunately binary drivers (especially) are often like that. Thanks
>> for all your hard work keeping this usable.
> 
>   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> 1) direct kernel access like now 2) access via the HAL/shim

Actually, I believe that's pretty much what the nvidia driver 
(specifically, in contrast to some other binary kernel modules) does.

They have their binary core which is common between supported platforms, 
and an open-source kernel shim[1] that is what people build when they 
"build" the nvidia kernel module.

However, due to the kernel's specifically NOT declared stable kernel-
space-API[2], the shim code must change with nearly every kernel to match 
the new kernel code.  As might be expected from a proprietary upstream 
that refuses to open their code and thus must support it themselves, 
upstream nvidia often falls behind, sometimes quite some way behind, both 
the kernel and xorg.  Thus this thread...

Of course it's possible to implement a userspace driver that wouldn't 
have the same issues as it'd use the stable userspace API, but that's 
generally accepted to be far too high a performance cost for graphics 
drivers, regardless of the kernel involved (MS tried it too for stability 
reasons and gave up at the performance penalty they were taking).

---
[1] The shim is licensed MIT or the like, such that the code can link to 
both the kernel and the binary-core-black-box.  So far, it has been 
allowed by the kernel folks under certain conditions, including that it 
not ship /with/ the kernel (various distros have run into that issue 
trying to ship it on their distribution media), and that it not attempt 
to link to the exported-as-GPL kernel symbols, just the general exported 
symbols.  But the nvidia driver is in somewhat better legal shape than 
many binary drivers because it /does/ use the same common core, which 
thus can be argued not to be a derivative of the kernel and thus not to 
fall under the copyright law which gives the GPL its legal teeth.  
Between that and the open-sourcing of the shim, as long as they stick to 
the general exported symbols and don't try to use the GPL-exported 
symbols, they should be fine.

[2] Ever-changing kernel-space-API:  This is in contrast to user-space, 
which they put a LOT of effort into keeping stable.  Also see the stable-
api-nonsense document another reply already linked.  Among other things, 
this both allows faster development and encourages the open-sourcing and 
upstreaming of code, since then the person doing the API changes must 
take care of it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 03:44:33PM -0100, Carlos Silva wrote
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> 
> >   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> > question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> > Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> > video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> > "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> > better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> > 1) direct kernel access like now
> > 2) access via the HAL/shim
> 
> 
> Just read this file and you'll have the answer:
> /usr/src/linux/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt

  Thanks.  That was an eye-opener.  If user-space drivers are really
that slow, we may as well stick with VESA as a fallback.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 02:01:31AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 03:44:33PM -0100, Carlos Silva wrote
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> > 
> > >   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> > > question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> > > Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> > > video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> > > "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> > > better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> > > 1) direct kernel access like now
> > > 2) access via the HAL/shim
> > 
> > 
> > Just read this file and you'll have the answer:
> > /usr/src/linux/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> 
>   Thanks.  That was an eye-opener.  If user-space drivers are really
> that slow, we may as well stick with VESA as a fallback.

Ok, I'll bite, What do you mean by that?  Where does the
stable_api_nonsense.txt file talk about userspace drivers?

greg "I wrote that file" k-h

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 05/03/13 08:01, Walter Dnes wrote:
> If user-space drivers are really that slow, we may as well stick 
> with VESA as a fallback.
You misunderstood something.

	«Please realize that this article describes the _in kernel_
interfaces, not the kernel to userspace interfaces.»

- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Walter Dnes]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 04:47:09PM +0800, Greg KH wrote
> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 02:01:31AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 03:44:33PM -0100, Carlos Silva wrote
> > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > >   I'm not a C programmer, let alone a developer, so this may be a stupid
> > > > question, but here goes... has anyone ever tried doing a HAL (Hardware
> > > > Abstraction Layer) to present a reasonably stable interface to binary
> > > > video drivers?  Think of it as a shim translating a "pseudo-API" into
> > > > "the real API" that the kernel exposes directly.  Surely, we can do
> > > > better than VESA.  Give drivers 2 options...
> > > > 1) direct kernel access like now
> > > > 2) access via the HAL/shim
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Just read this file and you'll have the answer:
> > > /usr/src/linux/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> > 
> >   Thanks.  That was an eye-opener.  If user-space drivers are really
> > that slow, we may as well stick with VESA as a fallback.
> 
> Ok, I'll bite, What do you mean by that?  Where does the
> stable_api_nonsense.txt file talk about userspace drivers?
> 
> greg "I wrote that file" k-h

  My statement was a general response to the entire thread.  Sorry, I
should've retitled it [REDUX whatever] 

* stable_api_nonsense.txt explained lack of a stable *KERNEL* api

* Duncan's message talked about slow *USERSPACE* API...

> Of course it's possible to implement a userspace driver that
> wouldn't have the same issues as it'd use the stable userspace API,
> but that's generally accepted to be far too high a performance cost
> for graphics drivers, regardless of the kernel involved (MS tried
> it too for stability reasons and gave up at the performance penalty
> they were taking).

  So between your file, and Duncan's message, I saw that...
1) a stable kernel API is not possible
2) a userspace API is too slow.

  I apologize again for the vagueness in my previous reply.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications