[gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Hi everyone, 

we've now had a few cases where mails were sent to this list to get a general 
opinion whether 
* some change should be implemented
* some feature is still needed 
* ...

While discussing this on a mailing list is nice, there are some disadvantages:
* Threads are easily hijacked, and drift away from the original question
* Bikeshedding about details. You know what I mean.
* "Counting the votes" is a pain. 
* "+1" mails are certainly useful, but the number of bytes per bit of 
information is a bit high
* and probably more.

I would like to suggest and ask your opinion on a simple way of getting the 
developers' collective opinion: cast votes with a shell script on our 
favourite shell server, which is then displayed on a web page (either only as 
stats, or with name lists as now in the public list discussion).
A typical choice of options would be restricted to "Yes, No, More discussion 
needed", a typical deadine 72h.

So, a thread like "Should we enable useflag Z by default" would then include
"Please discuss here, vote on ..." with a link to the count page (updated via 
cron every 1h). On login to ..., a message similar to the "open elections 
message" could be displayed.

Obviously the implementation does not exist, but this is conceptually simple 
enough so it could be implemented within reasonable time. 

Opinions?
(Yes / No / More discussion needed :D )


-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So, a thread like "Should we enable useflag Z by default" would then include
> "Please discuss here, vote on ..." with a link to the count page (updated via
> cron every 1h). On login to ..., a message similar to the "open elections
> message" could be displayed.
>
> Obviously the implementation does not exist, but this is conceptually simple
> enough so it could be implemented within reasonable time.
>
> Opinions?
> (Yes / No / More discussion needed :D )

What's the point?  I don't think democracy is the best way to handle
these sorts of things.

Plus, it leaves out users.  Why does that matter?  Think about it:

If what you want is expert opinion then the last thing you want is any
kind of poll of anybody.  Put it on the lists, follow the discussion,
chat with experts that emerge on irc/email/etc, and make the best
decision.  Is that hard?  Sure.  But, if your goal is to discover
issues and learn then you won't get that in an easier way.  .

If you just want to get a sense for what people find useful in a case
where popularity really is relevant (like the cups example) then you
really want to poll the entire userbase.  A forum poll or something
like that is more useful for that.  This isn't used for judging
technical rightness, but purely for assessing popularity.

If an issue is highly contentious then rather than counting votes it
makes more sense to ask the council.

Other options include creating choices (that requires a maintenance
commitment though), and this is often facilitated by starting a
project.  Then you can have somewhat more organized meetings/etc
around a topic of interest.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Alec Warner]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
> <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> So, a thread like "Should we enable useflag Z by default" would then include
>> "Please discuss here, vote on ..." with a link to the count page (updated via
>> cron every 1h). On login to ..., a message similar to the "open elections
>> message" could be displayed.
>>
>> Obviously the implementation does not exist, but this is conceptually simple
>> enough so it could be implemented within reasonable time.
>>
>> Opinions?
>> (Yes / No / More discussion needed :D )
>
> What's the point?  I don't think democracy is the best way to handle
> these sorts of things.
>
> Plus, it leaves out users.  Why does that matter?  Think about it:
>
> If what you want is expert opinion then the last thing you want is any
> kind of poll of anybody.  Put it on the lists, follow the discussion,
> chat with experts that emerge on irc/email/etc, and make the best
> decision.  Is that hard?  Sure.  But, if your goal is to discover
> issues and learn then you won't get that in an easier way.  .

The primary complaint was the fact that there is too much email. While
I don't disagree with your idea overall; it doesn't solve the problem
of essentially too many messages to read, which is a disincentive to
even try. This ends up where developers don't read -dev (or skim -dev,
or are not even subscribed to -dev.)

>
> If you just want to get a sense for what people find useful in a case
> where popularity really is relevant (like the cups example) then you
> really want to poll the entire userbase.  A forum poll or something
> like that is more useful for that.  This isn't used for judging
> technical rightness, but purely for assessing popularity.
>
> If an issue is highly contentious then rather than counting votes it
> makes more sense to ask the council.
>
> Other options include creating choices (that requires a maintenance
> commitment though), and this is often facilitated by starting a
> project.  Then you can have somewhat more organized meetings/etc
> around a topic of interest.
>
> Rich
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Peter Stuge]

Alec Warner wrote:
[..removed 25 lines of quoted text which I had already read..]
> The primary complaint was the fact that there is too much email.

Many emails are not neccessarily a problem if only they have high
signal-to-noise ratio.

I have *never* seen so competent people output so incompetent email
as on gentoo-dev. It is seriously the worst bunch of lazy-ass email
authors that I have ever seen. Sad face.

That is of course only *my* opinion.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Alec Warner]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Peter Stuge <peter@stuge.se> wrote:
> Alec Warner wrote:
> [..removed 25 lines of quoted text which I had already read..]
>> The primary complaint was the fact that there is too much email.
>
> Many emails are not neccessarily a problem if only they have high
> signal-to-noise ratio.
>
> I have *never* seen so competent people output so incompetent email
> as on gentoo-dev. It is seriously the worst bunch of lazy-ass email
> authors that I have ever seen. Sad face.

Well if you compare to say ubuntu-devel (which I recently joined) you
will find far fewer conversations there. I think part of that reason
is just that they have a more direct management structure. Leads have
the ability to make decisions without consulting *everyone*. We seemed
to have ditched the idea of leads long ago; except for a few remaining
projects.

-A

>
> That is of course only *my* opinion.
>
>
> //Peter
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Sonntag, 20. Januar 2013, 10:39:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> 
> What's the point?  I don't think democracy is the best way to handle
> these sorts of things.

LOL. Yeah, but haven't we tried to give ourselves rules that at least resemble 
it?

If I wanted to find out expert opinions and act on that, I'd directly ask a 
couple of people on IRC that I consider knowledgeable, and then directly 
follow their advice. No mailing list need be involved. This would be 
effective, most likely technologically correct, and fast. It would also cause 
major $hitstorms, since every developer knows best about a lot of things, and 
since a lot of people would understandably feel bypassed. I would lose commit 
privileges quite fast.

On the other hand, if I want to do the ultimate "right thing" in a community 
sense, I ask on the list and let the discussion develop. I get a lot of 
opinions. Some of these I consider more, some less sensible; some of these are 
better, some less well informed. On most issues, even well-informed people 
will have different opinions - sometimes things are just a matter of personal 
taste. Getting a real unanimous vote is impossible. I wait for everyone to 
read his mail; we've already heard that 72h is by far not enough time. (Half a 
year?) In the meantime the discussion has branched into a couple of topics, 
and most people have forgotten the original issue... Action may be taken on 
the day when debian stable has a newer glibc than gentoo (metaphorically 
speaking).

We will in the end need a compromise that both gets things done and involves 
everyone that actively wants to be involved. (And yes, that means reading your 
mail!)

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Alec Warner]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 20. Januar 2013, 10:39:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
>>
>> What's the point?  I don't think democracy is the best way to handle
>> these sorts of things.
>
> LOL. Yeah, but haven't we tried to give ourselves rules that at least resemble
> it?
>
> If I wanted to find out expert opinions and act on that, I'd directly ask a
> couple of people on IRC that I consider knowledgeable, and then directly
> follow their advice. No mailing list need be involved. This would be
> effective, most likely technologically correct, and fast. It would also cause
> major $hitstorms, since every developer knows best about a lot of things, and
> since a lot of people would understandably feel bypassed. I would lose commit
> privileges quite fast.

I think it is more difficult to lose commit privs than you think.
There are lots of warning signs. People being pissed off does not
equal getting your privs revoked. You do that for making horrific
technical errors; generally speaking.

>
> On the other hand, if I want to do the ultimate "right thing" in a community
> sense, I ask on the list and let the discussion develop. I get a lot of
> opinions. Some of these I consider more, some less sensible; some of these are
> better, some less well informed. On most issues, even well-informed people
> will have different opinions - sometimes things are just a matter of personal
> taste. Getting a real unanimous vote is impossible. I wait for everyone to
> read his mail; we've already heard that 72h is by far not enough time. (Half a
> year?) In the meantime the discussion has branched into a couple of topics,
> and most people have forgotten the original issue... Action may be taken on
> the day when debian stable has a newer glibc than gentoo (metaphorically
> speaking).

The general culture that I aspire to is one where developers take
responsibility for their work. If you make a change and break stuff,
you will lose trust. If you make a change and it goes well, you gain
trust. Trusted people are allowed more freedom (changes with perhaps
less discussion, or changes against an established consensus.) I think
listening to people is important. However listening to them does not
equal agreeing with them, or doing what they want. In the end you are
'in charge' of your change. People can make suggestions on how to do
things better, or offer advice against pitfalls.  However in the end
you are the person doing the work, so the decisions are nominally
yours to make.

>
> We will in the end need a compromise that both gets things done and involves
> everyone that actively wants to be involved. (And yes, that means reading your
> mail!)
>
> --
> Andreas K. Huettel
> Gentoo Linux developer
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> http://www.akhuettel.de/

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Panagiotis Christopoulos]

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On 16:20 Sun 20 Jan     , Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> I would like to suggest and ask your opinion on a simple way of getting the 
> developers' collective opinion: cast votes with a shell script on our 
> favourite shell server, which is then displayed on a web page (either only as 
> stats, or with name lists as now in the public list discussion).
> A typical choice of options would be restricted to "Yes, No, More discussion 
> needed", a typical deadine 72h.
> 

72h is too little. Generally, on big changes*, I would say at least 2
weeks before actually doing (acting on) anything. Because people may be
devaway for a while or busy with stuff and not reading their mail for some days (for some
reason). 

And there is still the Council for bigger things.

*the thing with USE flags is a big change.

-- 
Panagiotis Christopoulos ( pchrist )
    ( Gentoo Lisp Project )

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> 
> *the thing with USE flags is a big change.

You're kidding, right? 

If we seriously start doing that, we'll either get slapped with "dont bother 
us with that" by the council members, or nobody wants to run for council 
anymore.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Duncan]

Andreas K. Huettel posted on Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:52:40 +0100 as excerpted:


>> *the thing with USE flags is a big change.
> 
> You're kidding, right?
> 
> If we seriously start doing that, we'll either get slapped with "dont
> bother us with that" by the council members, or nobody wants to run for
> council anymore.

Additionally, the council has historically been somewhat like the US 
Supreme Court -- they like to have their discussion and to make the final 
decision, but the case itself is supposed to have actually been argued 
and all the basic issues covered at the trial-court level (which for us 
is the list).

Which would put us back where we started, since that pre-council-decision 
discussion would happen... on the list.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Panagiotis Christopoulos]

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On 17:52 Sun 20 Jan     , Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> 
> > 
> > *the thing with USE flags is a big change.
> 
> You're kidding, right? 
> 
> If we seriously start doing that, we'll either get slapped with "dont bother 
> us with that" by the council members, or nobody wants to run for council 
> anymore.
> 

I didn't mean, to start asking the Council for everything (certainly not
for USE flags changes in profiles). 

Writing that "the thing with USE flags is a big change", I meant that
those USE flags were wrongly put/remained in base profiles in first place and
before removing them we have to be sure that we won't break more, any
user configurations. and how we 're going to do it safely. That's why I
said about more time than 72h. 

But I stop here, as this thread is about something else, just wanted to explain the
logic behind writing ^^. 

I think I will stop using words like small/big/bigger as it may confuse
people.

-- 
Panagiotis Christopoulos ( pchrist )
    ( Gentoo Lisp Project )

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:20:42 +0100
"Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I would like to suggest and ask your opinion on a simple way of getting the 
> developers' collective opinion: cast votes with a shell script on our 
> favourite shell server, which is then displayed on a web page (either only as 
> stats, or with name lists as now in the public list discussion).
> A typical choice of options would be restricted to "Yes, No, More discussion 
> needed", a typical deadine 72h.
> 
> So, a thread like "Should we enable useflag Z by default" would then include
> "Please discuss here, vote on ..." with a link to the count page (updated via 
> cron every 1h). On login to ..., a message similar to the "open elections 
> message" could be displayed.
> 
> Obviously the implementation does not exist, but this is conceptually simple 
> enough so it could be implemented within reasonable time. 

I think Rich has raised the main points already, and I mostly agree
with him on the disadvantages of 'simple voting'.

I once or twice told it would be really useful to have a stack
exchange-like platform to discuss problems. Although it wouldn't be
perfect, it would be something in between blind-voting and mailing list
discussion. A place where everyone could suggest a solution and others
could vote on the proposed solutions.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting the general dev opinion ("Meinungsbild") on some feature

[Rémi Cardona]

Hi Andreas,

Le dimanche 20 janvier 2013 à 16:20 +0100, Andreas K. Huettel a écrit :
> So, a thread like "Should we enable useflag Z by default" would then include
> "Please discuss here, vote on ..." with a link to the count page (updated via 
> cron every 1h). On login to ..., a message similar to the "open elections 
> message" could be displayed.
> 
> Obviously the implementation does not exist, but this is conceptually simple 
> enough so it could be implemented within reasonable time. 

We (devs) participate in Gentoo in various ways and for very different
reasons. And those ways and reasons may change over time.

I, for one, no longer consider myself sufficiently informed about new
PM/EAPI features, various profile changes, etc. Though I'll gladly
update the few packages I maintain to whatever standard is expected,
I'll leave the discussion(/trolling?) to other better-informed folks as
I often have nothing of value to contribute in those areas.

In fact, I believe this to be exactly the Council's role and we already
have the necessary tools for that, including a yearly election. Council
members already represent Gentoo devs when tougher decisions need to be
made.

So while I commend you for trying to collect everyone's opinion, I
believe it should *not* be necessary for you (or anyone else) to
organize elections or polls in order to implement new features or
changes to Gentoo.

Cheers,

Rémi