From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DBB1381F3 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:11:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8430221C093; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:11:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3BC321C085 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:10:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B5020483 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:10:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=PrHW4hkXd8cDGt9OtLnokeOgC5E=; b=FichFzGWYotR2f5NJjeyKtShA+v4 ikfRXTvSxR+STp3LkPasjxMXnyUz23Wd56raXwtwKm2ZOjpqhuicoBqjzP/1ftZ9 LAklR+7gJdBKXTVvIzGoNnDX401CGZ+wHkwXDp18s5hGhlUXc9+QAEYkW3M5clvz OraCtVeORU6U7JM= X-Sasl-enc: Wyow+gXMJ+4lJDyncZMhVVQB8JGrq0Uh9vKDalLpGUq/ 1355937028 Received: from localhost (unknown [67.168.183.230]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A7EB98E0634; Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:10:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:13:28 -0800 From: Greg KH To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: eudev project announcement Message-ID: <20121219171328.GA25062@kroah.com> References: <20121215203359.4552d807@pomiocik.lan> <50CCDAC1.2080405@gentoo.org> <20121217104022.GA27716@bkor.dhs.org> <50CEFD54.7020801@gentoo.org> <20121217132500.GA29679@bkor.dhs.org> <50CF2C46.8040206@gentoo.org> <20121217194842.GA3103@bkor.dhs.org> <14fbeea8-8434-451e-a611-80e23fb36b38@email.android.com> <20121217213159.GA9719@kroah.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Archives-Salt: ed5fa4b1-89a3-435a-a36b-111e2389d40f X-Archives-Hash: 526f33f7513484a2d027a44d595028dd On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 08:21:36AM +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote: > On Mon, December 17, 2012 22:31, Greg KH wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 09:03:40PM +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote: > >> Olav Vitters wrote: > >> > >> >On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 09:29:26AM -0500, Richard Yao wrote: > >> >> As I said in an earlier email, Lennart Poettering claims that it does > >> >> not work. We are discussing some of the things necessary to make it > >> >work. > >> > > >> >Just to repeat: > >> >In this thread it was claimed that a separate /usr is not supported by > >> >systemd/udev. > >> > > >> >A case which works with latest systemd on various distributions. I > >> >checked with upstream (not Lennart), and they confirmed it works. I can > >> >wait for Lennart to say the same, but really not needed. > >> > > >> >I assume this will again turn into a "but I meant something else". > >> > >> Olav. > >> > >> Lennart has stated that he considers a seperate /usr without init* > >> broken. > > > > Yes, as do I, and so do a lot of other developers. > > It is only "broken", because upstream decided to move everything into /usr > that was previously in /. No, not at all, please see the web page that describes, in detail, the problems that has been going on for quite some time now, with the /usr and / partitions and packages. http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken One good solution to this issue is to move everything into /usr, and that's something that has wonderful benifits in the long run, and is something that I expect all Linux distros to eventually implement. Those that don't, will suffer because of it. Again, see the web page for why moving stuff into /usr is a good idea for the reasons behind this. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge > >> This has worked correctly in the past. > > > > Define "past" please. > > Recent past, like a few months ago no errors during boot and the system > running stable. You have gotten lucky, see the above links for why. > Please provide a simple way to let me see that it is broken on systems > that do not use bluetooth keyboards. Again, see the above link for how to do this. > The requirement of having userspace working to have input devices working > seems to be related to bluetooth, not to USB or PS/2 keyboards. Not at all, see the above link. > And using a bluetooth connection to access a NFS share is, in my humble > opinion, a corner case that requires additional work to make it work. One person's "corner case" is another person's default operating mode. > > Note, it's still broken, I have yet to see any upstream fixes to resolve > > all of the issues that are involved here with "fixing" this up. > > Reverting back to an older version makes it work. Because of how we package udev? > Using "mdev" also works. mdev is not recommended for desktop or server systems, but feel free to use it if you want. > > Yes, as always, for some subset of users, you can be lucky and it will > > work for them, but those systems are getting rarer and rarer these days, > > as the rest of upstream (not systemd here) are moving on and not doing > > anything to change their behavior for this topic. > > Why rarer? Any system I can buy in a random shop will work using a > seperate /usr, provided the software is installed sanely. Again, see above for why this is not true. > By moving everything into /usr, this brokenness is forced upon users. Not at all, but that's a separate topic than what we are talking about here. > >> The direction udev development is going, according to Lennart, is to > >> make that impossible and he refuses to fix this regression. > > > > Again, this has NOTHING to do with udev or systemd, as has been pointed > > out numerous times. I understand your _wish_ that it would have > > something to do with it, but that will not change the facts, sorry. > > Then what does it have to do with? > When it was made public that it is considered "broken", the news came from > udev-upstream. This was before most systems encountered any breakage. That is because things were failing silently for some people, and not so silently for others. Now udev warns about this type of situation, shooting the messenger is usually a bad idea. > >> I am really happy with this project and intend on testing it once > >> requests for this appear in the eudev mailing list. > > > > Good luck, the root problems still remain, and nothing that eudev ever > > does can resolve that, sorry. > > > > Can this topic finally be put to rest please? There is a whole web page > > devoted to this topic, why do people blindly ignore it? > > Where is this page? > I've read the page written by Lennart. Is there a decent (as in, going > into detail why it is broken and what it is caused by) analysis about the > "problem"? See above for the links and the details. > > Again, a separate /usr without an initrd has NOTHING to do with systemd > > or udev, with the minor exception that Gentoo's packaging of those > > programs _might_ have an issue, but that is Gentoo's issue, NOT > > upstream's issue. > > > > If anyone involved with eudev, or is involved with the Gentoo Council > > thinks that the previous paragraph is incorrect, they are flat out > > wrong. > > I have yet to hear about a clear explanation why a seperate /usr is broken > apart from the use of bluetooth keyboards. (Which are still in the > minority when I check local shops/webstores) Again, see above for specifics. greg k-h