From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <gentoo-dev+bounces-48108-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org>) id 1RDqcy-0006Bl-0w for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:41:12 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99ED621C032; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:41:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1C821C026 for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:40:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00441B4028 for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:40:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -2.964 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.964 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.635, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lmSo0x64kXD6 for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:40:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ironport2-out.pppoe.ca (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.183]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7756A1B4042 for <gentoo-dev@gentoo.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:40:20 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvwEAEgZlU5FxL+j/2dsb2JhbABDqCyBBoIwciYlEBQTFIdxmD2ffoMgg1dhBI5VilaHdIRF X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,527,1312171200"; d="txt'?scan'208";a="141351770" Received: from 69-196-191-163.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO waltdnes.org) ([69.196.191.163]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with SMTP; 12 Oct 2011 00:40:18 -0400 Received: by waltdnes.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:40:23 -0400 From: "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:40:23 -0400 To: Gentoo Developers <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for getting rid of udev Message-ID: <20111012044023.GA8203@waltdnes.org> Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org> List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-dev+help@lists.gentoo.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-dev.gentoo.org> X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: 5e741e9f45c32e8cac9be9b9ee798455 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi all Recently, there was a firestorm on the gentoo-user list over the idea that udev would eventually require /usr to be on the same physical parition as /, or else use initramfs, which is its own can of worms. I'm not a programmer, let alone a developer. Rather than merely ranting, I went and searched for an alternative. Forking udev is probably not an option. The udev lead developer is a Redhat employee, and his direction seems to be to drag everybody in Redhat's direction. Our community doesn't have Redhat's billions. The other option is to drop udev entirely. As an example, I suggest looking at Alpine Linux http://alpinelinux.org/ It's a lightweight server-oriented distro. It uses busybox's mdev instead of udev, and some other mdev substitutes in place of standard packages. It uses openrc. Furthermore, "previous versions of Alpine were based on Gentoo" as per http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Creating_an_Alpine_package so there should be no problem with us borrowing back from Alpine. The only reason Alpine isn't usuable for regular users right now is that it's built with uclibc, which will break closed-source binary blobs (e.g. Flash and Acrobat and many video card drivers). I'm not a developer or programmer, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it shouldn't be difficult to replace uclibc with the standard library, and build away. Another option is to take the current Gentoo setup, drop udev and use mdev in the same manner as Alpine uses it. In case anyone asks, auto mounting should still be possible. Attached is an excerpt from /var/log/messages from a basic Alpine install. The kernel messages were generated when I inserted a USB key into a usb jack. -- Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="usbkey.txt" Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.105621] usb 2-8: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 4 Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.241353] usb 2-8: New USB device found, idVendor=13fe, idProduct=1e00 Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.241357] usb 2-8: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3 Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.241360] usb 2-8: Product: Patriot Memory Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.241362] usb 2-8: Manufacturer: Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.241364] usb 2-8: SerialNumber: 078215A302CF Oct 9 13:46:00 e521 kern.info kernel: [10714.244241] scsi4 : usb-storage 2-8:1.0 Oct 9 13:46:01 e521 kern.notice kernel: [10715.279753] scsi 4:0:0:0: Direct-Access Patriot Memory PMAP PQ: 0 ANSI: 0 CCS Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.notice kernel: [10715.930991] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] 31326208 512-byte logical blocks: (16.0 GB/14.9 GiB) Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.notice kernel: [10715.931980] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.debug kernel: [10715.931983] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 23 00 00 00 Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.err kernel: [10715.931986] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.err kernel: [10715.935986] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.info kernel: [10715.981381] sdb: sdb1 Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.err kernel: [10715.986028] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through Oct 9 13:46:02 e521 kern.notice kernel: [10715.986035] sd 4:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI removable disk --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh--