[gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Tomáš Chvátal]

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Hi guys,
See the attachment for the draft.

Please improve it to be an actual English :P

Cheers

Tom

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Title: --as-needed enabled in default profiles
Author: Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org>
Content-type: text/plain
Posted: 2010-07-26
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0

Starting today all applications emerged on your system are linked
together with additional LDFLAGS="-Wl,--as-needed". This option
allows us to avoid linking extra libraries into the final binary
improving startup times and more importantly making binaries more
resistant to a library SONAME changes [1].

To gain the benefits of the change you should doublecheck your
value of LDFLAGS in make.conf because the variable does not fold and
your make.conf value is final. So after checking it and potentially
removing we suggest rebuilding whole system to benefit from it.

Overriding the in-profiles value is quite simple as described by
previous paragraph. Just put simply LDFLAGS="-Wl,01" in make.conf.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml

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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Fabian Groffen]

On 26-07-2010 22:29:06 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Starting today all applications emerged on your system are linked
> together with additional LDFLAGS="-Wl,--as-needed". This option
> allows us to avoid linking extra libraries into the final binary
> improving startup times and more importantly making binaries more
> resistant to a library SONAME changes [1].

While this is sort of the end result, I'd suggest making a more correct
statement here, like "and more importantly possibly reducing breakage of
binaries and libraries after a library SONAME changes".


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 7/26/10 1:29 PM, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Title: --as-needed enabled in default profiles
> Author: Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org>
> Content-type: text/plain
> Posted: 2010-07-26
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 1.0
> 
> Starting today all applications emerged on your system are linked
> together with additional LDFLAGS="-Wl,--as-needed". This option
> allows us to avoid linking extra libraries into the final binary
> improving startup times and more importantly making binaries more
> resistant to a library SONAME changes [1].

How about making it less technical? Just say that you'll need to rebuild
less packages on average after a library upgrade than before.

> To gain the benefits of the change you should doublecheck your
> value of LDFLAGS in make.conf because the variable does not fold and
> your make.conf value is final. So after checking it and potentially
> removing we suggest rebuilding whole system to benefit from it.

This might be a bit unclear to less savvy users. How about just make
sure your LDFLAGS in /etc/make.conf contains "-Wl,--as-needed" or is unset?

> Overriding the in-profiles value is quite simple as described by
> previous paragraph. Just put simply LDFLAGS="-Wl,01" in make.conf.

Instead of saying "overriding", I'd say something more similar to
"disabling --as-needed" and add that it is not recommended.

> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml

Paweł

P.S. It's nice to see this happening, thanks!


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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Joshua Saddler]

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On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:44:36 -0700
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> This might be a bit unclear to less savvy users. How about just make
> sure your LDFLAGS in /etc/make.conf contains "-Wl,--as-needed" or is unset?

> Instead of saying "overriding", I'd say something more similar to
> "disabling --as-needed" and add that it is not recommended.

It should be unset; as you say, users should not be screwing with system-wide LDFLAGs, as we don't support anything but the defaults.

I put an LDFLAGs FAQ in the optimization guide a long time ago:

section>
<title>What about LDFLAGS?</title>
<body>

<p>
The Gentoo developers have already set basic, safe LDFLAGS in the base profiles,
so you don't need to change them.
</p>

</body>
</section



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[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Duncan]

Joshua Saddler posted on Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:27:16 -0700 as excerpted:

> It should be unset; as you say, users should not be screwing with
> system-wide LDFLAGs, as we don't support anything but the defaults.
> 
> I put an LDFLAGs FAQ in the optimization guide a long time ago:
> 
> section>
> <title>What about LDFLAGS?</title>
> <body>
> 
> <p>
> The Gentoo developers have already set basic, safe LDFLAGS in the base
> profiles, so you don't need to change them. </p>
> 
> </body>
> </section

I agree with the safe bit, but that "don't need to change them" phrase is 
self-evidently false, or Gentoo wouldn't have needed to make the
--as-needed change either.  The change didn't magically happen the moment 
the need appeared.

(Then again, I never believed that equally self-evidently false "no user 
serviceable parts inside" sticker, either.  When it's a few screws and a 
50 cent fuse, and I'm the user without a microwave as a result...)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Alex Alexander]

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On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 10:29:06PM +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Hi guys,
> See the attachment for the draft.
> 
> Please improve it to be an actual English :P

How about:

-Wl,--as-needed has been added to the default profile's LDFLAGS.

This option optimizes the linking process, only linking binaries to
libraries that are trully needed. This way, fewer libraries are loaded
at runtime and fewer packages need to be rebuilt on library updates.

Setting LDFLAGS in your make.conf will override the default. In that
case, if you want the new setting you have to either remove LDFLAGS, 
or append " -Wl,--as-needed" to it (sans the quotes) yourself.

To take advantage of the new default you can either rebuild world or
allow the system to migrate slowly through updates.

To disable the new default (not recommended) you can define your own
LDFLAGS in make.conf. LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1" will suffice.

For more information on --as-needed, read [1].
 
[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml

-- 
Alex Alexander -=- wired
Gentoo Linux Developer -=- Council / Qt / KDE / more
www.linuxized.com

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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Sebastian Pipping]

I like that one better.


Both proposals leave a question open to me, though:
Do I understand correctly that I could integrate the in-profile value with

  LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} foo bar"

in /etc/make.conf?  Maybe that's something people want to do.  If so
maybe add a hint?



Sebastian

[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Ryan Hill]

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On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 00:41:12 +0200
Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I like that one better.
> 
> 
> Both proposals leave a question open to me, though:
> Do I understand correctly that I could integrate the in-profile value with
> 
>   LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} foo bar"
> 
> in /etc/make.conf?  Maybe that's something people want to do.  If so
> maybe add a hint?

Yep.  Can I suggest:

-Wl,--as-needed has been added to the default profile's LDFLAGS.

This option optimizes the linking process, only linking binaries to
libraries that are trully needed. This way, fewer libraries are loaded
at runtime and fewer packages need to be rebuilt after library updates.

To take advantage of the new default you can either rebuild world now or just
allow the system to migrate incrementally as it updates.

Please note that setting LDFLAGS="<your flags>" in your make.conf will
override the profile defaults. If you want to add additional LDFLAGS it is
recommended to use LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} <your flags>" instead to avoid this.

For more information on --as-needed, read [1].
 
[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                                   and it's all by design
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Tomáš Chvátal]

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Hash: SHA1

Dne 27.7.2010 05:38, Ryan Hill napsal(a):
> Yep.  Can I suggest:
> 
> -Wl,--as-needed has been added to the default profile's LDFLAGS.
> 
> This option optimizes the linking process, only linking binaries to
> libraries that are trully needed. This way, fewer libraries are loaded
> at runtime and fewer packages need to be rebuilt after library updates.
> 
> To take advantage of the new default you can either rebuild world now or just
> allow the system to migrate incrementally as it updates.
> 
> Please note that setting LDFLAGS="<your flags>" in your make.conf will
> override the profile defaults. If you want to add additional LDFLAGS it is
> recommended to use LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} <your flags>" instead to avoid this.
> 
> For more information on --as-needed, read [1].
>  
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml
> 
> 
I like this. Consider this as the update :]
With one simple replace s/trully/truly/ :P

Tom
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 7/27/10 1:36 AM, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Dne 27.7.2010 05:38, Ryan Hill napsal(a):
>> Yep.  Can I suggest:
> 
>> -Wl,--as-needed has been added to the default profile's LDFLAGS.
> 
>> This option optimizes the linking process, only linking binaries to
>> libraries that are trully needed. This way, fewer libraries are loaded
>> at runtime and fewer packages need to be rebuilt after library updates.
> 
>> To take advantage of the new default you can either rebuild world now or just
>> allow the system to migrate incrementally as it updates.
> 
>> Please note that setting LDFLAGS="<your flags>" in your make.conf will
>> override the profile defaults. If you want to add additional LDFLAGS it is
>> recommended to use LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} <your flags>" instead to avoid this.
> 
>> For more information on --as-needed, read [1].
> 
>> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml
> 
> 
> I like this. Consider this as the update :]
> With one simple replace s/trully/truly/ :P

I also like Ryan's version. I think it is clear and accurate.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Róbert Čerňanský]

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On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:38:05 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> it is recommended to use LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} <your flags>" instead to

Is it not a comma required between ${LDFLAGS} and <your flags>?

LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS},<your flags>"

Robert


-- 
Robert Cernansky
E-mail: hslists2@zoznam.sk
Jabber: hs@jabber.sk

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Samuli Suominen]

On 07/27/2010 08:37 PM, Róbert Čerňanský wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:38:05 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> it is recommended to use LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} <your flags>" instead to
> 
> Is it not a comma required between ${LDFLAGS} and <your flags>?
> 
> LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS},<your flags>"
> 
> Robert

Don't do that.

Quoting from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/asneeded.xml:

"Note: If you use more than one -Wl flag, you have to set
-Wl,--as-needed separately in LDFLAGS due to libtool deplib reordering[1]."

[1]
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/eclass/ELT-patches/as-needed/2.2.6?view=log

Just use:

LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} -Wl,--hash-style=gnu"

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:29:06 +0200
Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:

Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even respect
LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS, we will
probably find yet more packages that are problematic with --as-needed.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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On Tuesday 27 of July 2010 16:39:01 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul
2010 22:29:06 +0200
> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Is it
time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even respect
> LDFLAGS
yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS, we will
> probably find
yet more packages that are problematic with --as-needed.

A few broken apps
don't overweight the benefit of having --as-needed enabled by default. 

--

regards
MM

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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 7/27/10 7:39 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:29:06 +0200
> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even respect
> LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS, we will
> probably find yet more packages that are problematic with --as-needed.

I think that the arch teams doing the stabilizations are a good safety
net against that. And having --as-needed by default makes those issues
easier to detect.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:41:36 -0700
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 7/27/10 7:39 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:29:06 +0200
> > Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even
> > respect LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS,
> > we will probably find yet more packages that are problematic with
> > --as-needed.
> 
> I think that the arch teams doing the stabilizations are a good safety
> net against that. And having --as-needed by default makes those issues
> easier to detect.

Not entirely true, because as I tried to explain, a package needs to
first respect our LDFLAGS to respect our --as-needed in the second
place. Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
ignoring LDFLAGS...


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Petteri Räty]

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On 07/27/2010 07:51 PM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:41:36 -0700
> "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 7/27/10 7:39 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:29:06 +0200
>>> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even
>>> respect LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS,
>>> we will probably find yet more packages that are problematic with
>>> --as-needed.
>>
>> I think that the arch teams doing the stabilizations are a good safety
>> net against that. And having --as-needed by default makes those issues
>> easier to detect.
> 
> Not entirely true, because as I tried to explain, a package needs to
> first respect our LDFLAGS to respect our --as-needed in the second
> place. Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
> you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
> ignoring LDFLAGS...
> 

But adding --as-needed by default does not (now) break packages not
respecting LDFLAGS.

Regards,


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[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Duncan]

Petteri Räty posted on Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:32:07 +0300 as excerpted:

>>> On 7/27/10 7:39 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even
>>>> respect LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS, we
>>>> will probably find yet more packages that are problematic with
>>>> --as-needed.

> But adding --as-needed by default does not (now) break packages not
> respecting LDFLAGS.

This is, I think, the main point.  Ignoring LDFLAGS doesn't need to delay 
a change in the default LDFLAGS because they aren't seen in that case 
anyway so the package is no more broken than before.  Both ignoring the 
flags entirely and breaking with this specific flag are bugs, but they're 
separate bugs and can be treated separately.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Jeremy Olexa]

On 07/27/2010 11:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>  Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
> you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
> ignoring LDFLAGS...

Put that in the dev profile(s) then. :)
-Jeremy

[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Ryan Hill]

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On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 22:36:17 -0500
Jeremy Olexa <darkside@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 07/27/2010 11:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> >  Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
> > you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
> > ignoring LDFLAGS...
> 
> Put that in the dev profile(s) then. :)

We default to --hash-style=both everywhere which already covers it.


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fonts, gcc-porting,                                   and it's all by design
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[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Jonathan Callen]

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On 07/28/2010 01:26 AM, Ryan Hill wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 22:36:17 -0500
> Jeremy Olexa wrote:
> 
>> On 07/27/2010 11:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>>>  Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
>>> you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
>>> ignoring LDFLAGS...
>>
>> Put that in the dev profile(s) then. :)
> 
> We default to --hash-style=both everywhere which already covers it.

No it does not, for two reasons: one, the portage QA check is run only
if LDFLAGS actually contains the string "--hash-style=gnu" and two, the
portage QA check actually checks to see if the section (.hash) that
would be output by --hash-style=sysv or --hash-style=both is present. If
it is present, then the check fails, as --hash-style=gnu does not output
a .hash section.

- -- 
Jonathan Callen
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[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Ryan Hill]

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On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:02:35 -0400
Jonathan Callen <abcd@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 07/28/2010 01:26 AM, Ryan Hill wrote:
> > We default to --hash-style=both everywhere which already covers it.
> 
> No it does not, for two reasons: one, the portage QA check is run only
> if LDFLAGS actually contains the string "--hash-style=gnu" and two, the
> portage QA check actually checks to see if the section (.hash) that
> would be output by --hash-style=sysv or --hash-style=both is present. If
> it is present, then the check fails, as --hash-style=gnu does not output
> a .hash section.

My mistake.  Thanks for the correction.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Samuli Suominen]

On 07/28/2010 06:36 AM, Jeremy Olexa wrote:
> On 07/27/2010 11:51 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
>>  Since the QA trigger in portage is based on --hash-style=gnu,
>> you'd have to make that the default as well to find a package
>> ignoring LDFLAGS...
> 
> Put that in the dev profile(s) then. :)
> -Jeremy
> 

This has been discussed before:

http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg38251.html

[gentoo-dev] Re: News item announcing as-needed (glep 42 stuff)

[Ryan Hill]

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On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:39:01 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:29:06 +0200
> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Is it time yet? I still find a lot of packages that do not even respect
> LDFLAGS yet - when all these get fixed to respect LDFLAGS, we will
> probably find yet more packages that are problematic with --as-needed.

When you fix those packages to respect LDFLAGS you'll already hit any
as-needed issues that might exist since it's on by default in the dev
profiles.  Enabling it in the user profiles doesn't change that.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                                   and it's all by design
toolchain, wxwidgets                        to keep us from losing our minds
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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