[gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Lars Wendler]

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Hi list,

while finally doing some bug-wrangling again, I stumbled about [1] where a 
user requested to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags.
After leaving a request for further opinions about this in #-bugs I only got 
one reply:

14:11:28 <+Poly-C_atwork> Any idea what to do about bug #274818? Is there some 
real distinction between cdaudio and cdda? If no would it be worth to request 
the removal of one of these two flags in favor of the other one?
...
16:16:25 <+yngwin> Poly-C_atwork: looks to me that cdda and cdaudio are indeed 
the same
16:16:38 <+yngwin> and together they are used in 8 packages
16:16:46 <+yngwin> so it's time for a global use flag
16:17:04 <+yngwin> as cdda is the official term, that has my preference

So what do you think? Should we convert the bug into a tracker and open bugs 
for any package using the USE-flag that should be converted into the other 
one?

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/274818

-- 
Lars Wendler (Polynomial-C)
Gentoo Staffer and bug-wrangler

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Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Sebastian Pipping]

Lars Wendler wrote:
> So what do you think? Should we convert the bug into a tracker and open bugs 
> for any package using the USE-flag that should be converted into the other 
> one?

+1 from me, sounds reasonable.



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Rémi Cardona]

Le 05/07/2009 03:12, Sebastian Pipping a écrit :
> Lars Wendler wrote:
>> So what do you think? Should we convert the bug into a tracker and open bugs
>> for any package using the USE-flag that should be converted into the other
>> one?
>
> +1 from me, sounds reasonable.

Ditto, sounds good.

And now for some bikeshedding fun, which flag are we going to keep? ;)

Cheers,

Rémi

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Sebastian Pipping]

Rémi Cardona wrote:
> And now for some bikeshedding fun, which flag are we going to keep? ;)

My vote would be for cdaudio as that

 - is more general (including analog playback)
 - is more user friendly

but let those decide who "impkement" it.



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Josh Saddler]

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Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Rémi Cardona wrote:
>> And now for some bikeshedding fun, which flag are we going to keep? ;)
> 
> My vote would be for cdaudio as that
> 
>  - is more general (including analog playback)
>  - is more user friendly
> 
> but let those decide who "implement" it.

I'm also in favor of cdaudio: it's a bit more self-explanatory. I also
think it's better to have such a generic description for apps that use
libcdio/cdparanoia/cddb combinations, such as the package I maintain,
media-sound/decibel-audio-player.

I'm all for cdaudio over cdda.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

Le lundi 06 juillet 2009 à 14:18 -0700, Josh Saddler a écrit :
> Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> > Rémi Cardona wrote:
> >> And now for some bikeshedding fun, which flag are we going to keep? ;)
> > 
> > My vote would be for cdaudio as that
> > 
> >  - is more general (including analog playback)
> >  - is more user friendly
> > 
> > but let those decide who "implement" it.
> 
> I'm also in favor of cdaudio: it's a bit more self-explanatory. I also
> think it's better to have such a generic description for apps that use
> libcdio/cdparanoia/cddb combinations, such as the package I maintain,
> media-sound/decibel-audio-player.

As I said in [1], cdda has a precise meaning and cdaudio is all but a
blurry alternative. Also your examples are bad because they are blurring
the definition even more. Are we talking audio cdrom ripping, audio cd
data retrieving or simple audio cd playing support ?

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=274818#c1

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[AllenJB]

Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
> Le lundi 06 juillet 2009 à 14:18 -0700, Josh Saddler a écrit :
>> Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>>> Rémi Cardona wrote:
>>>> And now for some bikeshedding fun, which flag are we going to keep? ;)
>>> My vote would be for cdaudio as that
>>>
>>>  - is more general (including analog playback)
>>>  - is more user friendly
>>>
>>> but let those decide who "implement" it.
>> I'm also in favor of cdaudio: it's a bit more self-explanatory. I also
>> think it's better to have such a generic description for apps that use
>> libcdio/cdparanoia/cddb combinations, such as the package I maintain,
>> media-sound/decibel-audio-player.
> 
> As I said in [1], cdda has a precise meaning and cdaudio is all but a
> blurry alternative. Also your examples are bad because they are blurring
> the definition even more. Are we talking audio cdrom ripping, audio cd
> data retrieving or simple audio cd playing support ?
> 
> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=274818#c1
> 
> 
While cdda might be the correct technical term, how many users will
actually recognize what it means? Personally I think "cdaudio" (or, to
throw in another alternative "audiocd") would be recognized by most
users as support for playing audio cd's (as in the things you buy in the
shops and stick into any stereo made in the last 15+ years).

Are users really going to want to fine-tune between just playing or also
being able to rip/write audio cd's?

A quick check with "quse -D cdaudio cdda" (below) shows that the current
use flag descriptions, as far as I read them, don't make any discrepancy
between these definitions anyway - they all basically say "play audio
cd's" to me (with some additionally enabling cddb, which as a side note
already has a global use flag)

Current use flag descriptions:
 local:cdaudio:media-plugins/audacious-plugins: Enable cd audio playback
support
 local:cdaudio:media-sound/amarok: Enable cdaudio functionality
 local:cdaudio:media-sound/decibel-audio-player: Adds support for CD
audio playback and lookups via CDDB
 local:cdaudio:media-sound/mpfc: Enable cd audio playback support
 local:cdaudio:media-sound/picard: Enable support for CD Index Lookups.
 local:cdda:gnome-base/gvfs: Enables Compact Disc Digital Audio
(standard audio CDs) support
 local:cdda:media-sound/aqualung: Enables libcdda cd audio playback support
 local:cdda:media-video/vlc: Enables audio CD and VCD playback support.

So ultimately, this isn't even bike shedding in my opinion. There's only
one color to paint with anyway.

AllenJB

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify "cdda" and "cdaudio" USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

Le mardi 07 juillet 2009 à 13:57 +0100, AllenJB a écrit :
[snip]
> Are users really going to want to fine-tune between just playing or
> also being able to rip/write audio cd's?

I myself would probably not separate those features but they might be
because they pull a number of different libs. Getting informations from
cddb or musicbrainz is another story and I wouldn't like to see this
notion merged with cdaudio.

> A quick check with "quse -D cdaudio cdda" (below) shows that the
> current
> use flag descriptions, as far as I read them, don't make any
> discrepancy
> between these definitions anyway - they all basically say "play audio
> cd's" to me (with some additionally enabling cddb, which as a side
> note
> already has a global use flag)
> 
> Current use flag descriptions:
>  local:cdaudio:media-plugins/audacious-plugins: Enable cd audio
> playback
> support
>  local:cdaudio:media-sound/amarok: Enable cdaudio functionality
>  local:cdaudio:media-sound/decibel-audio-player: Adds support for CD
> audio playback and lookups via CDDB
>  local:cdaudio:media-sound/mpfc: Enable cd audio playback support
>  local:cdaudio:media-sound/picard: Enable support for CD Index
> Lookups.
>  local:cdda:gnome-base/gvfs: Enables Compact Disc Digital Audio
> (standard audio CDs) support
>  local:cdda:media-sound/aqualung: Enables libcdda cd audio playback
> support
>  local:cdda:media-video/vlc: Enables audio CD and VCD playback
> support.
> 
> So ultimately, this isn't even bike shedding in my opinion. There's
> only
> one color to paint with anyway.

agreed this sample is actually referring to the same thing.

But then, it is getting confusing wrt to [1], why would we use the
correct technical abbreviation in one case and not in the other ? Or
should we rename jabber to gtalk ?

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=216300

-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

Re: [gentoo-dev] About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, July 7, 2009 15:35, Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
> Le mardi 07 juillet 2009 à 13:57 +0100, AllenJB a écrit :
> [snip]
>
>> Are users really going to want to fine-tune between just playing or
>> also being able to rip/write audio cd's?
>
> I myself would probably not separate those features but they might be
> because they pull a number of different libs.

I would.

Ripping a cd just requires raw access to the device. You don't need
anything for that, just a working kernel as far as I know.

Playing cdaudio requires a lot more stuff, besides many other thing
it will require a working sound system (and some even blindly assume
that will be alsa, which pisses me the most).

You might use a computer to rip cdaudio to fill your portable mp3
player or to do backups, that doesn't mean that you want alsa in that
machine, you might not even have speakers attached. It's one example
but I could think of many more, it's just a matter of being creative.

>  Getting informations from
> cddb or musicbrainz is another story and I wouldn't like to see this
> notion merged with cdaudio.

Agreed. For example, those using gentoo as a base to create an OS for
an embedded device will probably not have a way to lookup cddb's on
the internet, and they for sure don't want to pull all of that on a
device where the storage space is really limited.

cddb must stay as it is, there's no reason to change that.




Whether you pick cdda, cdaudio or audiocd is completely unimportant
to me, the other two functionalities shouldn't have anything to do
with this.

Let's concentrate on the original purpose of the thread: choose what flag
is the right one to designate "audio cd support", and forget the rest of
creative ideas.

:)
-- 
Jesús Guerrero

[gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Duncan]

Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
524cf6368e2642a1637e6e3054466e3d.squirrel@jesgue.homelinux.org, excerpted
below, on  Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:30:58 +0200:

> On Tue, July 7, 2009 15:35, Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
>> Le mardi 07 juillet 2009 à 13:57 +0100, AllenJB a écrit : [snip]
>>
>>> Are users really going to want to fine-tune between just playing or
>>> also being able to rip/write audio cd's?
>>
>> I myself would probably not separate those features but they might be
>> because they pull a number of different libs.

> Ripping a cd just requires raw access to the device.
 
> Playing cdaudio requires a lot more stuff, besides many other thing it
> will require a working sound system
 
> You might use a computer to rip cdaudio to fill your portable mp3 player
> or to do backups, that doesn't mean that you want alsa in that machine,
> you might not even have speakers attached.

>> Getting informations from cddb or musicbrainz is another story
>> and I wouldn't like to see this notion merged with cdaudio.

> cddb must stay as it is, there's no reason to change that.

> Whether you pick cdda, cdaudio or audiocd is completely unimportant to
> me, the other two functionalities shouldn't have anything to do with
> this.

I don't really care whether the flags are merged or not, but what I'd 
DEFINITELY find useful is per-package metadata on what the flag actually 
does for that package.

If that means splitting flags down a bit, so the metadata is in the USE 
flag itself (paranoia: paranoia support, cdda: cdda support, cdripping: 
ripping support, alsa: alsa support, etc), great.

If it means it's just one big cdaudio flag, but each package has its own 
metadata saying what it actually does with it, that's great too.  
However, that'll mean a big change from today, as few packages have that 
detailed metadata on what their USE flags actually do.

While we're at it, getting user-visible documentation on flag conflicts 
would be nice, too.  (also OR oss flag, if both are enabled, alsa is the 
default, that type of comment in the metadata.)

It's frustrating and time consuming to have to dig into the ebuild code 
itself to see what the dependency/support actually is, or even worse, to 
have to dig into the package code or README/INSTALL files to get that 
info.

How many times have I seen a USE flag and asked myself, OK, but what does 
that actually MEAN, in terms of dependencies, etc?

An unrelated but good example of that is USE=doc.  Fortunately, there's a 
number of packages that have local descriptions.  But it's way too few 
compared to those that have it in IUSE but don't explain what it actually 
means in the package.  Is it huge dependencies, huge build-times, huge 
size, simply unnecessary for the user, or a combination, if it's a 
combination, which, and if it's dependencies, which ones?  (This one is 
at the top of my mind ATM due to the recent but now corrected USE=doc 
abuse for kde4.  Thanks, kde team, for fixing that.  It was very 
frustrating, but I realize the Gentoo packages were still in the heavy 
development and experimentation stage.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Lars Wendler]

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Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.

Lars Wendler (Polynomial-C)
Gentoo Staffer and bug-wrangler
Am Wednesday 08 July 2009 02:52:07 schrieb Duncan:

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Samuli Suominen]

Lars Wendler wrote:
> Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
> the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
> decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
> If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
> bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.

I'll handle it; cdda it shall be since we already have cddb as well. The
technical term is the right one here.

-Samuli

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Samuli Suominen]

Lars Wendler wrote:
> Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
> the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
> decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
> If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
> bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.

"next weekend", how about "done" ;-)

Thanks, Samuli

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Pacho Ramos]

El mié, 22-07-2009 a las 18:45 +0300, Samuli Suominen escribió:
> Lars Wendler wrote:
> > Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
> > the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
> > decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
> > If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
> > bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.
> 
> I'll handle it; cdda it shall be since we already have cddb as well. The
> technical term is the right one here.
> 
> -Samuli
> 

Have you think about enabling "cdda" USE flag by default in *desktop*
profiles? I think that most of "desktop" users will want to get cdaudio
support by default

Thanks :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Sebastian Pipping]

Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Have you think about enabling "cdda" USE flag by default in *desktop*
> profiles? I think that most of "desktop" users will want to get cdaudio
> support by default

There's quite a few notebooks without cd/dvd drives around these days.
I cannot tell how much that's in percent of all desktop users but
we'll have a stats tool to answer questions like that from real world
data soon. :-)



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Josh Saddler]

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Lars Wendler wrote:
> Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
> the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
> decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
> If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
> bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.
> 
> Lars Wendler (Polynomial-C)
> Gentoo Staffer and bug-wrangler
> Am Wednesday 08 July 2009 02:52:07 schrieb Duncan:

I object. As discussed earlier in the list, I think "cdaudio" is much
more appropriate than "cdda".


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Ben de Groot]

Josh Saddler wrote:
> Lars Wendler wrote:
>> Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
>> the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
>> decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
>> If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
>> bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.
>>
>> Lars Wendler (Polynomial-C)
>> Gentoo Staffer and bug-wrangler
>> Am Wednesday 08 July 2009 02:52:07 schrieb Duncan:
> 
> I object. As discussed earlier in the list, I think "cdaudio" is much
> more appropriate than "cdda".

As also discussed before, cdaudio is too vague and could mean various
things, while cdda is a very specific thing. This technically correct
term is less ambiguous, which is what we want here. Also, all the sound
herd people I spoke are in favour of cdda.

Ben
sound herd dev

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El mié, 22-07-2009 a las 18:45 +0300, Samuli Suominen escribió:
>> Lars Wendler wrote:
>>> Let's finally move on regarding this topic. As I'm also in favour of 
>>> the "cdda" USE flag I'd like to know if there's any objection against the 
>>> decision to unify/convert the "cdaudio" USE flag into "cdda".
>>> If there's no good reason against this conversion I will proceed with filing 
>>> bugs against packages using the "cdaudio" USE flag next weekend.
>> I'll handle it; cdda it shall be since we already have cddb as well. The
>> technical term is the right one here.
>>
>> -Samuli
>>
> 
> Have you think about enabling "cdda" USE flag by default in *desktop*
> profiles? I think that most of "desktop" users will want to get cdaudio
> support by default

Please don't.
Instead of having an ever larger collection of default use flags in the
desktop profile, we should be taking advantage of EAPI-1 IUSE defaults
and EAPI-2 use dependencies.
The reason I use the 2008.0 profile and not the desktop profile is the
large number of USE flags enabled in the desktop profile.
Does everyone using the desktop profile really need all of the following?

USE="acpi alsa branding cairo cdr dbus dvd dvdr dvdread eds emboss
encode esd evo fam firefox gif gnome gpm gstreamer gtk hal jpeg kde ldap
libnotify mad mikmod mp3 mpeg ogg opengl pdf png ppds qt3 qt3support qt4
quicktime sdl spell svg tiff truetype vorbis win32codecs unicode usb X
xml xulrunner xv"

Perhaps it's time we have a "thorough look" at the default USE flags for
the desktop profile. Putting my KDE hat on, I'd say most of the KDE
related use flags should probably be dropped and be left to the user or
the ebuilds.

> Thanks :-)
> 
> 

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Samuli Suominen]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> Have you think about enabling "cdda" USE flag by default in *desktop*
>> profiles? I think that most of "desktop" users will want to get cdaudio
>> support by default
> 
> Please don't.

I wasn't going to. Maybe not for the reasons expected; I just tend to
leave this to other developers, I'm using -*.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Pacho Ramos]

El jue, 23-07-2009 a las 03:06 +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
escribió:
> Please don't.
> Instead of having an ever larger collection of default use flags in the
> desktop profile, we should be taking advantage of EAPI-1 IUSE defaults
> and EAPI-2 use dependencies.

It's other way to go, of course, and I don't have anything against
it :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About time to unify 'cdda' and 'cdaudio' USE flags and make the remaining one global?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:06:36 +0000
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Does everyone using the desktop profile really need all of the
> following?

Not the question to be asking. The question to ask is, for those people
who use packages where those flags are relevant, is enabling them the
best default behaviour?

There's nothing wrong with having USE="foo" set by default if only 1%
of users use any package that has IUSE="foo", if for those 1% foo being
on by default is the best option.

- -- 
Ciaran McCreesh
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