* [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds @ 2009-05-17 16:20 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-17 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 335 bytes --] I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and updating PMS). -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:20 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 16:52 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-24 21:21 ` [gentoo-dev] " Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 894 bytes --] On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. > > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and > updating PMS). No good, for two reasons. First, this is a global scope change, and we can't make global scope changes to EAPIs using current mechanisms. EAPIs have to carry on using bash 3 until the EAPI mechanism is changed. Second, by order of the Council, EAPI 3's feature list was locked several weeks ago. If we ignore that for one thing, it just means everyone else who had features that came along too late will start demanding we reconsider those too... -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-17 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1278 bytes --] 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): > On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. > > > > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to > > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and > > updating PMS). > > No good, for two reasons. > > First, this is a global scope change Why do you think that it is a global scope change? > and we can't make global scope > changes to EAPIs using current mechanisms. EAPIs have to carry on using > bash 3 until the EAPI mechanism is changed. IMHO ebuilds are allowed to set DEPEND=">=app-shells/bash-4.0" and use bash-4.0 features anyway, but it would be easier to just set appropriate EAPI in ebuilds. > Second, by order of the Council, EAPI 3's feature list was locked > several weeks ago. If we ignore that for one thing, it just means > everyone else who had features that came along too late will start > demanding we reconsider those too... IMHO addition of this feature would be acceptable. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-20 17:12 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 17:02 ` [gentoo-dev] " Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot 2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-17 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev 2009/5/17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com>: > 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: >> > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of >> > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. >> > >> > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to >> > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and >> > updating PMS). >> >> No good, for two reasons. >> >> First, this is a global scope change > > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? I have updated the glep, see how it breaks [1]. [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-20 17:12 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-20 17:29 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-20 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-20 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1568 bytes --] 2009-05-17 19:02:02 Piotr Jaroszyński napisał(a): > 2009/5/17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com>: > > 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): > >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 > >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > >> > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. > >> > > >> > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to > >> > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and > >> > updating PMS). > >> > >> No good, for two reasons. > >> > >> First, this is a global scope change > > > > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? > > I have updated the glep, see how it breaks [1]. > > [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given ebuild. rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" message. Here's the updated version of my proposition: * bash-4.0 features are allowed in EAPI="3" (global scope and local scope). * bash-4.0 features temporarily shouldn't be used in gentoo-x86 repository until 1 month has passed since stabilization of =app-shells/bash-4.0* on all architectures. It will give Gentoo developers sufficient time to update app-shells/bash. (app-shells/bash used on system, which generates cache, also should be updated.) -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-20 17:12 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-20 17:29 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-20 17:41 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-20 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-20 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev 2009/5/20 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org>: > 2009-05-17 19:02:02 Piotr Jaroszyński napisał(a): >> 2009/5/17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com>: >> > 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >> >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 >> >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of >> >> > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. >> >> > >> >> > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to >> >> > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and >> >> > updating PMS). >> >> >> >> No good, for two reasons. >> >> >> >> First, this is a global scope change >> > >> > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? >> >> I have updated the glep, see how it breaks [1]. >> >> [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features > > This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given ebuild. > rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" message. Relying on cache being valid is doomed to fail. Among other things, what about overlays? -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-20 17:29 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-20 17:41 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-20 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1580 bytes --] 2009-05-20 19:29:12 Piotr Jaroszyński napisał(a): > 2009/5/20 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org>: > > 2009-05-17 19:02:02 Piotr Jaroszyński napisał(a): > >> 2009/5/17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com>: > >> > 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): > >> >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 > >> >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > >> >> > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. > >> >> > > >> >> > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to > >> >> > implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and > >> >> > updating PMS). > >> >> > >> >> No good, for two reasons. > >> >> > >> >> First, this is a global scope change > >> > > >> > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? > >> > >> I have updated the glep, see how it breaks [1]. > >> > >> [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features > > > > This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given ebuild. > > rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" message. > > Relying on cache being valid is doomed to fail. Among other things, > what about overlays? People managing overlays can temporarily disallow using bash-4.0 features in their overlays or they can drop support for bash-3, but it is outside of scope of my proposition. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-20 17:12 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-20 17:29 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-20 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-21 17:57 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-20 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 566 bytes --] On Wed, 20 May 2009 19:12:56 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote: > This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given > ebuild. rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" > message. We always have to assume that there might not be an up to date cache. The Gentoo rsync mirrors do not always ship up to date cache, particularly if someone's just changed a widely used eclass. Newer bash is not something that can be done as an EAPI change with current mechanisms. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-20 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-21 17:57 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-21 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-22 4:11 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-21 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 767 bytes --] 2009-05-20 20:00:43 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): > On Wed, 20 May 2009 19:12:56 +0200 > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote: > > This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given > > ebuild. rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" > > message. > > We always have to assume that there might not be an up to date cache. > The Gentoo rsync mirrors do not always ship up to date cache, > particularly if someone's just changed a widely used eclass. Users can wait an hour and run `emerge --sync` again. Anyway, Portage still allows to install other ebuilds (with lower EAPI) of given package, so this corner case doesn't need to slow down progress. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-21 17:57 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-21 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 20:31 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long 2009-05-22 4:11 ` Duncan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-21 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 708 bytes --] On Thu, 21 May 2009 19:57:49 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote: > > We always have to assume that there might not be an up to date > > cache. The Gentoo rsync mirrors do not always ship up to date cache, > > particularly if someone's just changed a widely used eclass. > > Users can wait an hour and run `emerge --sync` again. ...but that's not what happens. Instead, the users get their screen spammed with annoying messages, get confused and run to bugzilla in droves. This just takes us right back to the bad old days when changing anything would result in mass user confusion. The whole 'EAPI' thing wasn't an arbitrary whim. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-21 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-24 20:31 ` Steven J Long 2009-05-24 20:43 ` Ciaran McCreesh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Steven J Long @ 2009-05-24 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 21 May 2009 19:57:49 +0200 > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote: >> > We always have to assume that there might not be an up to date >> > cache. The Gentoo rsync mirrors do not always ship up to date cache, >> > particularly if someone's just changed a widely used eclass. >> >> Users can wait an hour and run `emerge --sync` again. > > ...but that's not what happens. Instead, the users get their screen > spammed with annoying messages, Er I think you're confusing paludis and portage. > get confused and run to bugzilla in droves. > Nice to see you have such a high opinion of our users. IME users are more than happy to wait a bit and sync. I agree there's work crying out to be done to make things more convenient. Your GLEPs don't begin to address those issues, unfortunately. Here, this sums up what's wrong with most of your cockamamy ideas (as attractive, and oh so right, as they may seem to you now): http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s07.html To paraphrase you: Go and read it and don't come back til you've actually understood the concepts. > This just takes us right back to the bad old days when changing > anything would result in mass user confusion. The whole 'EAPI' thing > wasn't an arbitrary whim. > Nor was it supposed to be a six-monthly dump to the list along with a whole slew of new, half-baked 'proposals' "everyone has to comply" with as "it's in PMS." Abuse of process doesn't make you right; it just makes you annoying. -- #friendly-coders -- We're friendly but we're not /that/ friendly ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-24 20:31 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long @ 2009-05-24 20:43 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 21:16 ` Patrick Lauer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-24 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1921 bytes --] On Sun, 24 May 2009 21:31:56 +0100 Steven J Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote: > > ...but that's not what happens. Instead, the users get their screen > > spammed with annoying messages, > > Er I think you're confusing paludis and portage. Er. No. As you would know had you read GLEP 55, Portage is noisy if you use bash 4 features in an ebuild and it doesn't have metadata. > > get confused and run to bugzilla in droves. > > > Nice to see you have such a high opinion of our users. You mean, nice to see that I was around and watching what happened back when we didn't have EAPIs to protect us from this sort of thing? > Here, this sums up what's wrong with most of your cockamamy ideas (as > attractive, and oh so right, as they may seem to you now): > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s07.html > > To paraphrase you: Go and read it and don't come back til you've > actually understood the concepts. Sorry, you don't get to post that kind of response until you start being right. In light of you being wrong (see above), please apologise and retract your remarks. > > This just takes us right back to the bad old days when changing > > anything would result in mass user confusion. The whole 'EAPI' thing > > wasn't an arbitrary whim. > > Nor was it supposed to be a six-monthly dump to the list along with a > whole slew of new, half-baked 'proposals' "everyone has to comply" > with as "it's in PMS." > > Abuse of process doesn't make you right; it just makes you annoying. If you have a problem with the EAPI process, I suggest you take it up with the Council. But given they've recently voted that everyone has to comply with PMS or get p.masked, and that we'll do new EAPIs whenever there are features available, and that they considered the EAPI 3 feature list to be appropriate, I doubt you'll get very far. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-24 20:43 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-24 21:16 ` Patrick Lauer 2009-05-24 21:22 ` Ciaran McCreesh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Patrick Lauer @ 2009-05-24 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Sunday 24 May 2009 22:43:52 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > Here, this sums up what's wrong with most of your cockamamy ideas (as > > attractive, and oh so right, as they may seem to you now): > > > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s07.html > > > > To paraphrase you: Go and read it and don't come back til you've > > actually understood the concepts. > > Sorry, you don't get to post that kind of response until you start > being right. In light of you being wrong (see above), please apologise > and retract your remarks. Ciaran, this mailinglist is not your personal playground. As you obviously can't even be bothered to reflect on other peoples statements without reflex-posting something unrelated I must ask you to stop spamming us. It's just not funny anymore. Okay, yes, Mr. Long was quite rude there (trying to fight fire with fire I guess). But in this case you're discussing rather subjective things again (how often is it the case that you don't have a cache?) that might not even be a problem. And, as you consistently don't read any arguments that might interfere with how you want reality to be, sometimes people use harsher language in the hope of making you read (and maybe even understand) their argument. Now please stop playing the drama queen, stop spamming (yes, replying to every mail is spamming) and maybe we can return to a technical discussion, as this mailinglist was originally intended (or so I hope). Thanks in advance, your friendly neighborhood kitten. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-24 21:16 ` Patrick Lauer @ 2009-05-24 21:22 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 21:59 ` Patrick Lauer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-24 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 673 bytes --] On Sun, 24 May 2009 23:16:13 +0200 Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote: > Okay, yes, Mr. Long was quite rude there (trying to fight fire with > fire I guess). But in this case you're discussing rather subjective > things again (how often is it the case that you don't have a cache?) > that might not even be a problem. This is not in the least bit subjective. You don't have cache: * for any overlays you use * often enough for the main tree that we get people asking about it in #paludis, since Paludis warns if it encounters stale cache files. We know full well that this is a real problem. Stop pretending that it isn't. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-24 21:22 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-24 21:59 ` Patrick Lauer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Patrick Lauer @ 2009-05-24 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Sunday 24 May 2009 23:22:21 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Sun, 24 May 2009 23:16:13 +0200 > > Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote: > > Okay, yes, Mr. Long was quite rude there (trying to fight fire with > > fire I guess). But in this case you're discussing rather subjective > > things again (how often is it the case that you don't have a cache?) > > that might not even be a problem. > > This is not in the least bit subjective. You don't have cache: > > * for any overlays you use Only partially correct (but you knew that already, so I won't bother repeating it) And with overlays you have _no_ guarantees anyway. Plus portage spews a nice warning if you play around with eclasses, which many users parse as an error. So that's not an issue anyway ... overlays are unsupported territory where the only assumption you can make is that things might not work (but surprisingly often they do) > * often enough for the main tree that we get people asking about it in > #paludis, since Paludis warns if it encounters stale cache files. Haven't seen that with portage (well duh), and if it really is a problem maybe we should ask grobian how he made the prefix rsync checkout consistent. Y'know, if it is a problem fix the problem. > We know full well that this is a real problem. Stop pretending that it > isn't. Well, we don't. Hmm, who is we in this context? Would be much nicer if we stopped using the pluralis majestatis to make us look more important. Anyways, if it is a problem it's mostly an issue of the cache generation, which is trivially fixed, or it's not a problem, in which case it is fixed already. Or it is an issue for everyone doing unsupported things, in which case ... it is not an issue. Because it's unsupported. So what was our point again? Anyways, this is going round and round in circles until someone gets dizzy and throws up. Not the best way to "discuss", and I'm getting really bored with it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-21 17:57 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-21 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-22 4:11 ` Duncan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-05-22 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> posted 200905211957.55040.Arfrever@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:57:49 +0200: > 2009-05-20 20:00:43 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >> On Wed, 20 May 2009 19:12:56 +0200 >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote: >> > This error occurs only when there is no up-to-date cache for given >> > ebuild. rsync users would see only the usual "masked by: EAPI 3" >> > message. >> >> We always have to assume that there might not be an up to date cache. >> The Gentoo rsync mirrors do not always ship up to date cache, >> particularly if someone's just changed a widely used eclass. > > Users can wait an hour and run `emerge --sync` again. Anyway, Portage > still allows to install other ebuilds (with lower EAPI) of given > package, so this corner case doesn't need to slow down progress. Except that users are STRONGLY encouraged (on threat of ban) from syncing more than once a day. A 24-hour wait can seem like a long time, especially when you're doing your weekly update on your one off day a week, so it's effectively a 7-day wait, or you were updating your folks computer on holiday and it could be a multi-month wait, or when something's broken that you're depending on to make that presentation in the morning and you know the new version fixes it because the bug said so. If we're going to be saying wait an hour, then let's get rid of the wait 24-hours thing. Otherwise, that's mixed messages to users and as Ciaran points out, users get confused by such things. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot 2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1390 bytes --] On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:58:58 +0200 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: > > No good, for two reasons. > > > > First, this is a global scope change > > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? Package managers still need to be able to get the EAPI, even if they don't support newer EAPIs, which means you're restricted to using syntax that bash-3 can parse. Although you can sneak some bash-4 features through bash-3's parser, it gets extremely confusing. > > and we can't make global scope > > changes to EAPIs using current mechanisms. EAPIs have to carry on > > using bash 3 until the EAPI mechanism is changed. > > IMHO ebuilds are allowed to set DEPEND=">=app-shells/bash-4.0" and use > bash-4.0 features anyway, but it would be easier to just set > appropriate EAPI in ebuilds. Er, no. An ebuild's deps aren't met when the package manager generates metadata from the ebuild. > > Second, by order of the Council, EAPI 3's feature list was locked > > several weeks ago. If we ignore that for one thing, it just means > > everyone else who had features that came along too late will start > > demanding we reconsider those too... > > IMHO addition of this feature would be acceptable. You could say that about any feature, but the Council chose to just go with an absolute cutoff. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-17 17:02 ` [gentoo-dev] " Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot 2009-05-17 19:25 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:28 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Ben de Groot @ 2009-05-17 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: > 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of >>> bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. >>> >>> I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to >>> implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and >>> updating PMS). >> No good, for two reasons. >> >> First, this is a global scope change > > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? Because he wants to push GLEP 55. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) Gentoo Linux Release Engineering PR liaison ______________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot @ 2009-05-17 19:25 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:28 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 391 bytes --] On Sun, 17 May 2009 21:22:57 +0200 Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote: > > Why do you think that it is a global scope change? > > Because he wants to push GLEP 55. Ben, please stop that and apologise for your behaviour. It's already been explained why changing bash versions is a global scope change, so you've got no excuse for posting such nonsense. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot 2009-05-17 19:25 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 19:28 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-17 20:02 ` Ben de Groot 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-17 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev 2009/5/17 Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org>: > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: >> 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 >>> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of >>>> bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. >>>> >>>> I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to >>>> implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and >>>> updating PMS). >>> No good, for two reasons. >>> >>> First, this is a global scope change >> >> Why do you think that it is a global scope change? > > Because he wants to push GLEP 55. Would you care to look at [1] and see how it breaks first before posting BS like that? Better yet test it youtself. [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 19:28 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-17 20:02 ` Ben de Groot 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Ben de Groot @ 2009-05-17 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Piotr Jaroszyński wrote: > 2009/5/17 Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org>: >> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: >>> 2009-05-17 18:37:32 Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a): >>>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:20:21 +0200 >>>> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of >>>>> bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. >>>>> >>>>> I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to >>>>> implement (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and >>>>> updating PMS). >>>> No good, for two reasons. >>>> >>>> First, this is a global scope change >>> Why do you think that it is a global scope change? >> Because he wants to push GLEP 55. > > Would you care to look at [1] and see how it breaks first before > posting BS like that? Better yet test it youtself. > > [1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~peper/glep-0055.html#use-newer-bash-features > Okay, after reading the updated GLEP, I see what you mean. Let's continue to discuss this in the GLEP 55 updated thread, and I promise to be more constructive. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) Gentoo Linux Release Engineering PR liaison ______________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:20 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-17 16:52 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-24 21:21 ` [gentoo-dev] " Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-17 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev 2009/5/17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <arfrever.fta@gmail.com>: > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. This is glep 55 material. I will update it to reflect that. -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds 2009-05-17 16:20 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 16:52 ` Piotr Jaroszyński @ 2009-05-24 21:21 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis @ 2009-05-24 21:21 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1463 bytes --] 2009-05-17 18:20:21 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis napisał(a): > I would like to suggest to include possibility of using of features of > bash-4.0 (and older versions) in local scope of EAPI="3" ebuilds. > > I know that it's slightly late, but this change is very easy to implement > (adjusting RDEPEND of new versions of package managers and updating PMS). Zac Medico doesn't have objections to this proposition, so I hope that Council will approve it. From #gentoo-portage: [22:40:11] <Arfrever> zmedico: What is your opinion about allowing bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3"? ... [22:55:03] <zmedico> Arfrever: that's fine with me ... [22:56:15] <Arfrever> zmedico: Could you respond to the thread on gentoo-dev mailing list about it? ... [22:56:59] <tanderson> I'd not mind seeing bash 4 in eapi 3; and I don't buy ciaran's argument that it'll open the door for all the other latecomers [22:57:20] igli takes out life-insurance on tanderson ;p [22:57:22] <zmedico> Arfrever: can you just respond for me and say "zac says it's okay with him"? :) [22:58:52] zmedico is migrating his thunderbird pop setup to use all imap and filters in gmial [22:58:55] <zmedico> *gmail [22:59:08] <tanderson> igli: disagreeing technically isn't something that can get you killed! You're notplaying the odds well my friend [22:59:23] <Arfrever> zmedico: OK. [22:59:34] <zmedico> Arfrever: thanks a lot :) -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-05-24 21:59 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 23+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-05-17 16:20 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Allow bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 16:37 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 16:58 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-17 17:02 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-20 17:12 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-20 17:29 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-20 17:41 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-20 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-21 17:57 ` Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2009-05-21 18:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 20:31 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long 2009-05-24 20:43 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 21:16 ` Patrick Lauer 2009-05-24 21:22 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-24 21:59 ` Patrick Lauer 2009-05-22 4:11 ` Duncan 2009-05-17 17:02 ` [gentoo-dev] " Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:22 ` Ben de Groot 2009-05-17 19:25 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-17 19:28 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-17 20:02 ` Ben de Groot 2009-05-17 16:52 ` Piotr Jaroszyński 2009-05-24 21:21 ` [gentoo-dev] " Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
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