Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

[Mario Fetka]

On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
> Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
> > Hi....
> >
> > Thanks,
> > welp
>
> Sad to hear it mate.
>
> As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
> will be missed.
>
> I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
> because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
> been improving in the past 12 months.
>
> About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
> might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in
> much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can
> come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
> vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
> about Gentoo wanting people.
>
> If you book them, they will come.
>
> G

and I would be the first to come

Mario

Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

[Thomas Sachau]

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Mario Fetka schrieb:
> On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
>> Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
>>> Hi....
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> welp
>> Sad to hear it mate.
>>
>> As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
>> will be missed.
>>
>> I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
>> because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
>> been improving in the past 12 months.
>>
>> About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
>> might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in
>> much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can
>> come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
>> vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
>> about Gentoo wanting people.
>>
>> If you book them, they will come.
>>
>> G
> 
> and I would be the first to come
> 
> Mario
> 
> 
> 

For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new
developer.

-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thomas Sachau wrote:
> Mario Fetka schrieb:
>> On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
>>> Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
>>>> Hi....
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> welp
>>> Sad to hear it mate.
>>>
>>> As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
>>> will be missed.
>>>
>>> I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
>>> because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
>>> been improving in the past 12 months.
>>>
>>> About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
>>> might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in
>>> much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can
>>> come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
>>> vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
>>> about Gentoo wanting people.
>>>
>>> If you book them, they will come.
>>>
>>> G
>> and I would be the first to come
>>
>> Mario
>>
>>
>>
> 
> For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option:
> 
> Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The
> Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and
> contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them
> and how to maintain them.
> As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a
> developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild
> development work themselves.
> 
> And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may
> level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full
> Gentoo developer. ;-)
> 
> So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also
> have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication
> between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new
> developer.
> 

I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join 
you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal 
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux 
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people 
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell 
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk 
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the 
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully 
be here for years to come.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Markos Chandras]

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On Monday 04 May 2009 23:47:08 George Prowse wrote:
> Thomas Sachau wrote:
> > Mario Fetka schrieb:
> >> On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
> >>> Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
> >>>> Hi....
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> welp
> >>>
> >>> Sad to hear it mate.
> >>>
> >>> As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
> >>> will be missed.
> >>>
> >>> I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
> >>> because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
> >>> been improving in the past 12 months.
> >>>
> >>> About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years
> >>> ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev
> >>> Day" in much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where
> >>> people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because
> >>> there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never
> >>> see anything about Gentoo wanting people.
> >>>
> >>> If you book them, they will come.
> >>>
> >>> G
> >>
> >> and I would be the first to come
> >>
> >> Mario
> >
> > For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
> > ebuilds, there is already an option:
> >
> > Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
> > documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the
> > #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and
> > contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create
> > ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them.
> > As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
> > maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing
> > manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development
> > work themselves.
> >
> > And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a
> > good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You
> > want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-)
> >
> > So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
> > (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde
> > herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new
> > developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new
> > developer.
>
> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
> you will always be understaffed.
>
> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
> magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
> talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
> the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
>
> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
> be here for years to come.
All those things are PR related. Unfortunately Gentoo does not have any PR 
activity ( ok we have some via Gentoo Planet/Universe ) . We used to have GMN 
but that died a long time ago. Establishing a proper and active PR team is 
something that we should consider as a high priority as well :/
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Mounir Lamouri]

George Prowse wrote:
> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to
> join you will always be understaffed.
>
> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some
> linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get
> people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your
> hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a
> difference!
>
> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will
> hopefully be here for years to come.
>
I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I
sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we
can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that "user should not
ask and should wait to be asking". I'm not sure most devs are looking to
users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy.
Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed
like it looks like.
An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very
positive and I would be glad to help with that.

Regards,
Mounir

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Mounir Lamouri wrote:
> George Prowse wrote:
>> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to
>> join you will always be understaffed.
>>
>> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
>> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some
>> linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get
>> people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your
>> hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a
>> difference!
>>
>> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
>> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
>> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
>> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will
>> hopefully be here for years to come.
>>
> I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I
> sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we
> can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that "user should not
> ask and should wait to be asking". I'm not sure most devs are looking to
> users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy.
> Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed
> like it looks like.
> An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very
> positive and I would be glad to help with that.
> 
> Regards,
> Mounir
> 
> 
I'm always willing to help also. I have plenty of time on my hands.

First you need a date, then you need some devs who will be at their 
computers then you can go ape. Message everyone under the sun that 
Gentoo is going on a recruitment drive on from $date and there will be 
lots of friendly people in $location, $location and $location to show 
people what is required.

Of course it would be easier if we had a list from Gentoo where help is 
needed most and we could broadcast for people in those areas.

We could even write a web page where people added their names and 
details as a kind of pre-signup to test the water and see how many 
people we might get. Keep the names visible because that might create 
extra PR.

"Gentoo is looking for linux personnel and also those familiar with the 
distribution itself. What is required is either linux experience or 
experience with Gentoo, knowlege of bash and a helpful, happy attitude..."

If it were successful then a large group of mentors would be needed.

Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

[Olivier Huber]

Hi,

2009/5/4 Thomas Sachau <tommy@gentoo.org>
>[snip]
> For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option:
>
> Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The
> Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and
> contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them
> and how to maintain them.
> As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a
> developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild
> development work themselves.

I think these are really good advise but I think we could improve the
way users can help concerning maintainer-needed packages.
dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
hole. For instance, the last bugday I tried to close some bugs. Some
one them were assigned to maintainer-needed@,
so I said on #gentoo-bugs that I've updated those bugs. Sometimes, a
dev was watching and the issue was closed, but for others I have still
no comments (Ok. I'm too impatient, but I'm not really confident. But
some devs can still surprise me ;-) )

I fully understand that looking at this type of bug is hard and
boring. On the other hand, I know some devs who are willing to help
and check patches. Since I don't think it would be a good practise to
savagely CC' them, I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
something like that.

Cheers,

-- 
Olivier Huber

Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Olivier Huber <oli.huber@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
> to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
[snip]

You forgot the references :)

Don't postpone putting them till the end! You *will* forget them! Add
them when you write the [$num]s ;)


-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Thomas Sachau]

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George Prowse schrieb:
> Thomas Sachau wrote:
>> For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
>> ebuilds, there is already an option:
>>
>> Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
>> documentation from the topic. The
>> Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
>> everyone willing to learn and
>> contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
>> create ebuilds, how to improve them
>> and how to maintain them.
>> As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
>> maintained, that dont get a
>> developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
>> contributors learn the ebuild
>> development work themselves.
>>
>> And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
>> is a good chance that you may
>> level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
>> was my way to become a full
>> Gentoo developer. ;-)
>>
>> So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
>> (probably other projects also
>> have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
>> may be the communication
>> between potential new developers and the current developer base and
>> our options to become a new
>> developer.
>>
> 
> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
> you will always be understaffed.
> 
> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
> magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
> talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
> the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
> 
> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
> be here for years to come.
> 
> 

Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So if anyone is willing
to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and time myself.

The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people to the sunrise project
and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.

-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thomas Sachau wrote:
> George Prowse schrieb:
>> Thomas Sachau wrote:
>>> For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
>>> ebuilds, there is already an option:
>>>
>>> Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
>>> documentation from the topic. The
>>> Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
>>> everyone willing to learn and
>>> contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
>>> create ebuilds, how to improve them
>>> and how to maintain them.
>>> As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
>>> maintained, that dont get a
>>> developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
>>> contributors learn the ebuild
>>> development work themselves.
>>>
>>> And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
>>> is a good chance that you may
>>> level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
>>> was my way to become a full
>>> Gentoo developer. ;-)
>>>
>>> So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
>>> (probably other projects also
>>> have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
>>> may be the communication
>>> between potential new developers and the current developer base and
>>> our options to become a new
>>> developer.
>>>
>> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
>> you will always be understaffed.
>>
>> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
>> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
>> magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
>> talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
>> the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
>>
>> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
>> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
>> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
>> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
>> be here for years to come.
>>
>>
> 
> Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So if anyone is willing
> to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and time myself.
> 
> The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people to the sunrise project
> and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.
> 
I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
red tape.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to
> walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
> then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
> will hopefully be here for years to come.

That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
developers.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Sebastián Ramírez Magrí]

El mar, 05-05-2009 a las 18:28 +0100, George Prowse escribió:
> Thomas Sachau wrote:
> > George Prowse schrieb:
> >> Thomas Sachau wrote:
> >>> For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
> >>> ebuilds, there is already an option:
> >>>
> >>> Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
> >>> documentation from the topic. The
> >>> Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
> >>> everyone willing to learn and
> >>> contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
> >>> create ebuilds, how to improve them
> >>> and how to maintain them.
> >>> As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
> >>> maintained, that dont get a
> >>> developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
> >>> contributors learn the ebuild
> >>> development work themselves.
> >>>
> >>> And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
> >>> is a good chance that you may
> >>> level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
> >>> was my way to become a full
> >>> Gentoo developer. ;-)
> >>>
> >>> So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
> >>> (probably other projects also
> >>> have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
> >>> may be the communication
> >>> between potential new developers and the current developer base and
> >>> our options to become a new
> >>> developer.
> >>>
> >> I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
> >> you will always be understaffed.
> >>
> >> Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
> >> communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
> >> magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
> >> talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
> >> the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
> >>
> >> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
> >> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
> >> people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
> >> influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
> >> be here for years to come.
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So if anyone is willing
> > to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and time myself.
> > 
> > The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people to the sunrise project
> > and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.
> > 
> I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
> red tape.
> 

I feel it's necessary to clear that it's not mandatory to be a full time
developer to help improve Gentoo. Many users want to help but they don't
feel ready for such a compromise. Then there is Sunrise, and the
overlays from the herds, where the prospective users can learn first and
take the following step when they feel they're ready. I think there are
at least 2 recent new developers who made it this way.

There are several (much?) understaffed projects in Gentoo, the
developers who are responsible of this areas could take some time to
write a guide for users on how to help, with steps to commit patches to
the overlays, wishes and needs... and then publish it in the project web
page.

Also, there could be a page similar to the 'staffing-needs' one, but
listing links to the 'Help Us' pages of the projects.

Just my 2c...

And sorry for any spell/grammar error...

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
> George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
>> with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to
>> walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
>> then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
>> will hopefully be here for years to come.
> 
> That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
> recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
> lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
> ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
> recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
> developers.
> 
And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on now, 
you'll have to do better than that.

In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't have 
the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 05 May 2009 19:11:02 +0100
George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
> > recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities.
> > With lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers
> > already have ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by
> > people who were only recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs
> > better developers, not more developers.
> > 
> And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on
> now, you'll have to do better than that.

One of the necessary abilities is to be able to get yourself recruited
with the current process. Anyone who can't put up with the hassle of
that isn't going to be able to put up with all the bureaucracy, delays
and nonsense necessary to get anything done within Gentoo.

> In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't
> have the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.

A conservative estimate would be that 90% of the people who decide to
be developers because of such an initiative would be unsuitable.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Roy Bamford]

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Hash: SHA1

On 2009.05.05 18:37, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
> George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned 
> correctly
[snip]
> 
> That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
> recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities.
> With
> lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already
> have
> ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were
> only
> recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not 
> more
> developers.
> 
> -- 
> Ciaran McCreesh
> 

Ciaran,

- From your post, it appears that standards were lowered during the 
recruitment drive you reference. If thats true, its a lesson for next 
time. That may well reduce the uptake rate compared to last time too 
but as you infer, new developers need the right skill set.

At best, the publicity George suggests would raise awareness, which is 
the first step to getting more help of the right sort.

- -- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
treecleaners
trustees
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Markos Chandras]

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On Tuesday 05 May 2009 20:37:24 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
>
> George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
> > with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to
> > walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
> > then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
> > will hopefully be here for years to come.
>
> That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
> recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
> lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
> ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
> recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
> developers.
We surely need more developers. Otherwise we ll end up maintaining 100<x<500 
each one.  Just look at the numbers ( total packages/total ACTIVE developers 
). So first we need to attract more people.  Evaluation and recruitment comes 
next
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 5 May 2009 21:19:49 +0300
Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> We surely need more developers. Otherwise we ll end up maintaining
> 100<x<500 each one.  Just look at the numbers ( total packages/total
> ACTIVE developers ). So first we need to attract more people.
> Evaluation and recruitment comes next

I have a better way of improving those numbers: remove two thirds of the
packages from the main tree.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 05 May 2009 19:19:00 +0100
Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
> - From your post, it appears that standards were lowered during the 
> recruitment drive you reference.

Not quite.

At the time, there weren't really any particular standards during
recruitment. The system relied upon recruitment mostly being done or
supervised by a smaller group of people who did it a lot and were
fairly good judges of suitability. The system broke when someone who
didn't do much recruiting pulled in a bunch of new people for obscure
side projects that sounded cool without verifying that some of those
people, say, knew what 'grep' was.

The ebuild-related quiz questions come from my attempt at the time to
reduce the damage until a proper solution could be implemented, which
never happened because devrel decided to make other things a priority.
And even then, the quiz rapidly became unsuccessful because recruiters
would give people lots of attempts and lots of help to answer the
questions, and would let people retake the quiz as many times as they
liked -- the questions were designed to be instantly answerable, not
research questions.

At the very least, before attempting any mass recruitment, the quiz
needs to be lengthened, brought up to date and split into "answer these
on the spot on IRC without having seen the question before" and
"research allowed" questions, and recruiters have to be prepared to
fail most applicants.

- -- 
Ciaran McCreesh
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Petteri Räty]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 
> At the very least, before attempting any mass recruitment, the quiz
> needs to be lengthened, brought up to date and split into "answer these
> on the spot on IRC without having seen the question before" and
> "research allowed" questions, and recruiters have to be prepared to
> fail most applicants.
>

We have actually been using an extra question battery for IRC for many
years already. The quizzes are actively maintained by me so if you have
suggestions about what needs improving please do tell and we can update
the quizzes as needed. Currently we really don't need to fail that many
people as those who end up at that point in the process almost always
have good enough skills as they have contributed via overlays for quite
a while. I would rather keep it like the current process where the bad
people don't get mentored to the finish.

Regards,
Petteri


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Hi,

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com>:
> At the very least, before attempting any mass recruitment, the quiz
> needs to be lengthened, brought up to date and split into "answer
> these on the spot on IRC without having seen the question before" and
> "research allowed" questions, and recruiters have to be prepared to
> fail most applicants.

 Apart from growing into your job (that's what happened with me),
recruiters do quite long IRC sessions with the applicant.  Apart from
questions not found in the quiz they want people to elaborate on
answers they made. 

V-Li

- -- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://gentoo.faulhammer.org/>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Rémi Cardona]

Petteri Räty a écrit :
> Currently we really don't need to fail that many
> people as those who end up at that point in the process almost always
> have good enough skills as they have contributed via overlays for quite
> a while.

Ditto on that. Most recruits I've been actively watching these past few 
months (Ford_prefect, nirbheek and now mrpouet) have all been "trained" 
that way :
  - they send us patches for ebuilds
  - we tell them how they are wrong and they fix 'em
  - after a while, they get access to the overlay
  - we still whack them with the cluebat when they break stuff

But the whole overlay process is very positive because it's hands-on 
experience.

The ebuild quiz is usually a very good time for them to reflect on all 
the work they did and they understand more why we had to whack them a 
few times. Things make much more sense for them.

All in all, I would say overlays + the ebuild quiz make for very good 
recruits. I have yet to be disappointed by this recruitment process.

Cheers,

Rémi

Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

Le mardi 05 mai 2009 à 01:59 +0200, Olivier Huber a écrit :
> Hi,
> [...]

> , I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
> something like that.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
You mean something like the "Inclusion" keyword in bugzilla ? Or maybe a
separate keyword that would indicate unreviewed patches. It's sad we
don't have the ability to set per attachment status other than obsolete
in our bugzie but we can still figure ways to work without it.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Christian Faulhammer <fauli@gentoo.org> posted
20090506083356.4a561ea2@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Wed, 06 May 2009
08:33:56 +0200:

> Apart from growing into your job (that's what happened with me),
> recruiters do quite long IRC sessions with the applicant.  Apart from
> questions not found in the quiz they want people to elaborate on answers
> they made.

As others have occasionally noted, the assumption seems to be that 
developers "do" IRC.  While it's certainly a useful thing for those that 
do it, I believe I've seen a few developers speak up from time to time 
that say they do little if any IRC at all, doing their Gentoo comms via 
email (including the lists), bugs, and of course commits.  Does the way 
remain open for such recruits?  This subthread would suggest not, that 
IRC is now considered not just convenient or useful, but mandatory.  I'd 
call that a shame, as it could well block otherwise productive potential 
devs.

If it's not assumed mandatory, perhaps a bit more care should be taken to 
avoid creating that impression, thereby discouraging potentially valuable 
recruits.

Maybe the world has moved on and email, etc, is now as impractical for 
development as snail mail.  If so, I suppose it has left us old fogies 
behind, but somehow, I don't believe it's gone /that/ far yet, nor can I 
believe it will in the intermediate term future, at least.  If it were, 
after all, this list should be near deserted.  It's obviously not.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Mart Raudsepp]

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On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 17:25 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Christian Faulhammer <fauli@gentoo.org> posted
> 20090506083356.4a561ea2@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Wed, 06 May 2009
> 08:33:56 +0200:
> 
> > Apart from growing into your job (that's what happened with me),
> > recruiters do quite long IRC sessions with the applicant.  Apart from
> > questions not found in the quiz they want people to elaborate on answers
> > they made.
> 
> As others have occasionally noted, the assumption seems to be that 
> developers "do" IRC.  While it's certainly a useful thing for those that 
> do it, I believe I've seen a few developers speak up from time to time 
> that say they do little if any IRC at all, doing their Gentoo comms via 
> email (including the lists), bugs, and of course commits.  Does the way 
> remain open for such recruits?  This subthread would suggest not, that 
> IRC is now considered not just convenient or useful, but mandatory.  I'd 
> call that a shame, as it could well block otherwise productive potential 
> devs.

Are you suggesting that recruiters should do long e-mail exchanges with
the applicants instead, having no real time conversations, leading to no
idea about the applicants real knowledge (when there is not much time to
do research after a question is posed), attitude and so on?


-- 
Mart Raudsepp
Gentoo Developer
Mail: leio@gentoo.org
Weblog: http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/leio

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> posted 1241633816.25192.2.camel@localhost,
excerpted below, on  Wed, 06 May 2009 21:16:56 +0300:

> On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 17:25 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>> Christian Faulhammer posted:
>> 
>> > recruiters do quite long IRC sessions with the applicant.  Apart from
>> > questions not found in the quiz they want people to elaborate on
>> > answers they made.
>> 
>> As others have occasionally noted, the assumption seems to be that
>> developers "do" IRC.
> 
> Are you suggesting that recruiters should do long e-mail exchanges with
> the applicants instead, having no real time conversations, leading to no
> idea about the applicants real knowledge (when there is not much time to
> do research after a question is posed), attitude and so on?

Noting that mail turnaround can be seconds or minutes, particularly when 
needed and arranged beforehand... like say an IRC session might be...

There's a saying that the mark of an expert isn't that he knows 
everything, but that he knows where to look to find it when he needs it.

I'd suggest that applies here.

In the Gentoo development environment, what's so pressing that a few 
hours' delay checking a reference to make sure something's done correctly 
is a problem?  If it's not a problem "on the job", why make it a problem 
"for the interview"?

Basically, I'd argue there's no vital information obtainable by an IRC 
interview that can't be obtained in an email exchange.  There's 
certainly /some/ additional information available in the instant format, 
but I'd argue it isn't vital information given a longer view and a 
history to work with, and in fact, that said additional information is 
quite trivial.

I'd argue that real knowledge and attitude should easily be apparent by 
the time of a serious interview, whether it's via IRC or mail, in any 
case.  As the developer's handbook points out, the first step in the 
process is simply "helping out".  What's the bug submission history?  
Patches?  Sunrise and/or project overlay and/or AT record?  Whether on 
the various devel and project lists or IRC channels, what has been the 
candidate's attitude?  Do they take well suggestions from others, yet are 
able to take their own positions and defend them technically when 
necessary?  Are they able to discern when it's a big deal and when it's 
not?  When they screw up, do they apologize, then work to fix it 
themselves, asking for help when needed, or are they either slacking off 
waiting for someone else to fix their mess, or refusing offered and 
needed (time-wise or technically) help?

Are you saying that history, generally of months if not years[1], is 
easily faked, and that an IRC session is better at detecting such fakes 
than an email exchange of approximate equal depth would be?  If you are, 
I must say I disagree.  I just don't see it.

[1] There's a place for shorter term commitments, see the SoC, bugday, 
simply pitching in with patches or testing, etc, but those aren't Gentoo 
devhood.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 6 May 2009 21:19:00 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> There's a saying that the mark of an expert isn't that he knows 
> everything, but that he knows where to look to find it when he needs
> it.

Which is certainly a necessary skill.

> In the Gentoo development environment, what's so pressing that a few 
> hours' delay checking a reference to make sure something's done
> correctly is a problem?  If it's not a problem "on the job", why make
> it a problem "for the interview"?

The first problem is that people rarely put in the effort to do the
looking up if they can instead get away with a bad solution off the top
of their head. A good number of developers just go with the first hack
they can think of rather than putting in a bit more work to do things
properly.

The second is that if people can't think of certain things off the top
of their head, they're not going to think of them after detailed study.

If a question asks "what's wrong with this code?", you know there's
something wrong and you can spend time researching to find out what it
is. But people need to be able to recognise mistakes even when they're
not looking for them, and to know when something's wrong even if they
haven't been told to find the mistake -- being able to do this requires
having a good immediate knowledge of certain parts of the material.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> posted
20090506223757.106cad31@snowcone, excerpted below, on  Wed, 06 May 2009
22:37:57 +0100:

> If a question asks "what's wrong with this code?", you know there's
> something wrong and you can spend time researching to find out what it
> is. But people need to be able to recognise mistakes even when they're
> not looking for them, and to know when something's wrong even if they
> haven't been told to find the mistake -- being able to do this requires
> having a good immediate knowledge of certain parts of the material.

You're right, but that's where the history comes in.  If the most recent 
code/ebuilds has/have been crap, needing lots of corrections, etc, they 
probably need some more pre-dev mentoring.  If it's good quality, well, 
perhaps they're ready to go into apprenticeship, aka actively mentored 
new dev.  After all, the commits from current devs aren't always perfect, 
as can be seen by the comments on the commit-feed from time to time.

Plus, as I said, with a pre-arrangement, it's possible to do email 
reasonably close to real-time as well, close enough they'd not have time 
to look it up unless they had /some/ idea what was going on.

But it's also possible to structure those questions a bit differently.  
Provide several samples of code, some of which have problems, some of 
which don't.  Ask them what they'd change if anything, and why.  Throw 
some in from the commit feed which might have minor stuff, plus a couple 
of known critically wrong examples.  Tell them you'll expect a rough 
"what's wrong" (for the group of several samples) in say 10/20/whatever 
minutes, and fixes within an hour/2/whatever.  There's no reason that 
can't be done via email, and throwing in some live commit feed action 
might make it a bit interesting. =:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

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Duncan wrote:
> Plus, as I said, with a pre-arrangement, it's possible to do email 
> reasonably close to real-time as well, close enough they'd not have time 
> to look it up unless they had /some/ idea what was going on.

What good is simulating real-time chat with email?

If you prefer not to use IRC most of the time, fine.
Refusing to use IRC when it is clearly the superior tool, that's just dumb. So
then I guess you are arguing email is better for this, right?

What's so bad about the real-time nature of IRC anyways? That's just like having
a genuine face-to-face conversation. Are those bad too? To be avoided at all
costs? What problem are we solving here again?

Marijn

- --
If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say.

Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Arttu V.]

On 5/7/09, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> There's no reason that can't be done via email, and throwing in
> some live commit feed action might make it a bit interesting. =:^)

I'm sensing a sort of a "patches welcome" attitude from the crowd,
i.e., not falling for a hard sell of just the idea. And as it stands,
they may also be familiar with your emails from, e.g., gentoo-user
list? :)

Maybe you have to prove the functionality of your email-based
processes over irc-oriented ones by, e.g., forking gentoo into
duncantoo (or whatever, duncantoo.org appears to be available) and
running things successfully on email for a while? ;)

-- 
Arttu V.

[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> posted
4A02A0E7.5050500@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Thu, 07 May 2009
10:50:47 +0200:

> Duncan wrote:
>> Plus, as I said, with a pre-arrangement, it's possible to do email
>> reasonably close to real-time as well, close enough they'd not have
>> time to look it up unless they had /some/ idea what was going on.
> 
> What good is simulating real-time chat with email?

No simulation, simply ping-ponging close enough to real time via email 
that there's no need for IRC.

> If you prefer not to use IRC most of the time, fine. Refusing to use IRC
> when it is clearly the superior tool, that's just dumb. So then I guess
> you are arguing email is better for this, right?

Not better, but different, and comparable enough that it's not worth 
losing a potentially valuable contributor over the difference.  Some 
people have just never felt comfortable with IRC, others find it 
indispensible.  Different strokes for different folks as they say, 
certainly not something worth losing a dev over.  True, it works both 
ways to some degree, but when it's volunteers you are working with, and 
there's any number of other projects they could be contributing to 
instead, if one requires something they're not comfortable with, that one 
likely lost out for what's long term view something ridiculously trivial.

> What's so bad about the real-time nature of IRC anyways? That's just
> like having a genuine face-to-face conversation. Are those bad too? To
> be avoided at all costs? What problem are we solving here again?

Nothing bad about it.  Some folks are just more comfortable using other 
comms methods.

<sigh>  I hadn't intended to get personal, simply state an opinion and 
clarify a position, but perhaps some personal specifics will help.  Or 
maybe they won't, but WTH, it's worth the effort...

Unlike "the texting generation"[1], I've simply found I don't do well 
with instant text.  I deliberate over my sentences too much, go back and 
rewrite, occasionally lookup words I'm using to ensure the meaning or 
spelling is correct, etc.  In a one-on-one, the other end ends up sitting 
there staring at a blank screen for minutes at a time, then replies in 
seconds.  That's a waste of their time and a discomfort to me, as I 
realize the mismatch.  In a many-to-many, unlike say a dozen separate 
voice conversations in a crowded room, I simply don't have the skill 
others have obviously perfected of separating out the individual desired 
threads from the "noise" in real-time, tho I can of course with a bit of 
effort "pore over"[2] an IRC log and regenerate the conversation 
virtually, after the fact, as I regularly do with the council meeting 
logs, for instance.  But real-time text in pretty much any form simply 
doesn't work well for me, and I'm uncomfortable with it as a result. 
Sure, given time and effort that would likely change, to some degree, but 
honestly, there's far better yields for the same time and effort 
elsewhere.  Obviously, it's not something the texting generation can 
easily understand, thus this discussion.

I've seen a few replies from the (rare) Gentoo dev as well, indicating 
they basically don't do IRC either, just mail, tho it is quite rare, and 
it would seem, likely to go extinct in Gentoo before its time, since 
evidently those devs have no skills considered worth recruiting any 
more.  I'd call that a shame as that's a potentially large skills and 
talent bank Gentoo's about to pass on, but what's a man to do, other than 
make the point as best he can? <shrug>  

[1] "The texting generation": loosely described, not necessarily a 
specific generation, more a level of comfort with a specific form of 
technology, tho it's presumably more common in say the under-30 crowd 
than the over-40, even among developers and the otherwise technically 
literate.

[2] "Pore over": lookup case in point.  FWIW I had it right, "pore not 
pour". =:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Thomas Anderson]

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On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:29:33PM +0000, Duncan wrote:
> "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> posted
> 4A02A0E7.5050500@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Thu, 07 May 2009
> 10:50:47 +0200:
> I've seen a few replies from the (rare) Gentoo dev as well, indicating 
> they basically don't do IRC either, just mail, tho it is quite rare, and 
> it would seem, likely to go extinct in Gentoo before its time, since 
> evidently those devs have no skills considered worth recruiting any 
> more.  I'd call that a shame as that's a potentially large skills and 
> talent bank Gentoo's about to pass on, but what's a man to do, other than 
> make the point as best he can? <shrug>  

It seems to me you're on a irc-hate rampage. There are many devs who
rarely, if ever, go on irc. The _only_ requirement is that  you conduct
a real-time interview with a recruiter. It's sort of like a job
interview only it's remote. Once you're a dev you don't have to go on
irc _at all_. It's not going to kill you to do two reviews on irc,
especially given the advantages various people have presented for a
real-time interview.

Regards,
Thomas
-- 
---------
Thomas Anderson
Gentoo Developer
/////////
Areas of responsibility:
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Hi,

Thomas Anderson <gentoofan23@gentoo.org>:
> It seems to me you're on a irc-hate rampage. There are many devs who
> rarely, if ever, go on irc. The _only_ requirement is that  you
> conduct a real-time interview with a recruiter. It's sort of like a
> job interview only it's remote. Once you're a dev you don't have to
> go on irc _at all_. It's not going to kill you to do two reviews on
> irc, especially given the advantages various people have presented
> for a real-time interview.

 That's the point!  And for the records: You won't find me on IRC
often, but for some short-time collaboration (bug days) or small check
I go there.  And having written those long emails consumed more energy
then setting up an IRC client, connecting to Freenode (without joining
any channel) and go to a query with the recruiter...nobody will ever
notice that Duncan has been on IRC.
 The right tool for a task, and sometimes IRC is the right tool.

V-Li

-- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://gentoo.faulhammer.org/>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Richard Freeman]

Thomas Anderson wrote:
> It seems to me you're on a irc-hate rampage. There are many devs who
> rarely, if ever, go on irc. The _only_ requirement is that  you conduct
> a real-time interview with a recruiter. 

I have to agree with this sentiment - I have nothing against IRC but it 
is a bit too realtime for me to be on it routinely.  However, I didn't 
have any trouble spending time with my mentor on IRC as it is a much 
more productive way to learn the ropes.  Sure, lots of time was spent 
reading docs/etc, and doing ebuild exercises/etc.  However, the direct 
conversations were also an invaluable part of the process (even if it is 
hard to schedule an hour just sitting at the keyboard with family/etc).

Plus, it is essential that there be some kind of interviewing process to 
become a dev.  A gentoo dev potentially has the power to hose the 
systems of everybody running gentoo - so we owe it to ourselves and our 
user communities to vet any candidate for this position.  Sure, we want 
to know that they know how to write ebuilds, but we also want to know 
that they have a good attitude and some common sense as well.  We count 
on devs to understand their own limitations and to not try to 
singlehandedly revamp baselayout/etc without careful coordination with 
the rest of the community.

I also echo what has been said about projects like Sunrise and overlays 
as being good gateways into gentoo.

Oh, I'm not sure I agree that new devs should be grilled to the n'th 
degree on obscure ebuild knowledge.  It is more important that they know 
where to go and have demonstrated the ability to use this knowledge than 
it is for them to have this memorized.  If it takes a dev 28 hours of 
tinkering to get an ebuild right I could care less as long as it is 
right on the first actual commit.  When it comes to package management 
being careful is generally more important than being quick.  It is also 
critical that devs be able to interact in a professional manner and 
relate well to our user community as well.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Arttu V. wrote:
> On 5/7/09, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>> There's no reason that can't be done via email, and throwing in
>> some live commit feed action might make it a bit interesting. =:^)
> 
> I'm sensing a sort of a "patches welcome" attitude from the crowd,
> i.e., not falling for a hard sell of just the idea. And as it stands,
> they may also be familiar with your emails from, e.g., gentoo-user
> list? :)
> 
> Maybe you have to prove the functionality of your email-based
> processes over irc-oriented ones by, e.g., forking gentoo into
> duncantoo (or whatever, duncantoo.org appears to be available) and
> running things successfully on email for a while? ;)
> 
Oh good lord, what have I started here... I can see that being as 
successful as the Norweigan referee in last nights Chelsea v Barcelona game

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:14 PM, George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh good lord, what have I started here... I can see that being as successful
> as the Norweigan referee in last nights Chelsea v Barcelona game
>

Oooh, and here's the funny part, the max replies are by the same old
people who drown every thread!

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2009.05.06.17.25.14@cox.net,
excerpted below, on  Wed, 06 May 2009 17:25:15 +0000:

> As others have occasionally noted, the assumption seems to be that
> developers "do" IRC.  While it's certainly a useful thing for those that
> do it, I believe I've seen a few developers speak up from time to time
> that say they do little if any IRC at all, doing their Gentoo comms via
> email (including the lists), bugs, and of course commits.  Does the way
> remain open for such recruits?  This subthread would suggest not, that
> IRC is now considered not just convenient or useful, but mandatory.  I'd
> call that a shame, as it could well block otherwise productive potential
> devs.

To put this subthread to bed, then, the straight answer seems to be "No, 
the way does not remain open for no-IRC recruits.  IRC is required to be 
a Gentoo dev, period.  If a potential recruit isn't interested in IRC, 
Gentoo isn't interested in them as developers."

Which, I suppose, is good to know, agree or not.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Markos Chandras]

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On Friday 08 May 2009 12:19:28 Duncan wrote:
> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2009.05.06.17.25.14@cox.net,
>[..] If a potential recruit isn't interested in IRC,
> Gentoo isn't interested in them as developers."
>
> Which, I suppose, is good to know, agree or not.
Ok now you are overreacting.  Joining IRC 2 times in your life ( just for the 
review/recruit process ) is not that hard.  I am sure you know that but for a 
weird reason you are not willing to admit it. Recruit process takes about 3-5 
hours on IRC. Can you image how long it would take assuming you have a real 
time recruitment process over e-mail?
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> posted
200905081342.17562.hwoarang@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Fri, 08 May
2009 13:42:13 +0300:

> On Friday 08 May 2009 12:19:28 Duncan wrote:
>> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2009.05.06.17.25.14@cox.net,
>>[..] If a potential recruit isn't interested in IRC,
>> Gentoo isn't interested in them as developers."
>>
>> Which, I suppose, is good to know, agree or not.

> Ok now you are overreacting.  Joining IRC 2 times in your life ( just
> for the review/recruit process ) is not that hard.

<Sigh. My intent was to put it to bed.>

If it's trivial enough that it's overreaction to refuse to join IRC twice 
in one's life (which it should be noted, to my knowledge anyway, no one 
has actually refused), then certainly, by that same mark of triviality, 
it's overreaction to require it, as well.  Otherwise, if it wasn't simply 
triviality, it wouldn't be overreaction, but misreaction.

But no matter, the practical fact of the matter is that for someone who 
would otherwise not do IRC, it's just one more hurdle in the process.  
Whether it's useful or not, trivial or vital, no longer matters, it's 
defined by the gatekeepers as a requirement, therefore, by said 
definition, it is a requirement.

It's good to know the requirements, including this one.  Which is what I 
was asking in the original post, is it or isn't it.  Apparently, it is, 
and anyone intending to become a developer can now deal with it as such.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Richard Freeman]

Duncan wrote:
> But no matter, the practical fact of the matter is that for someone who 
> would otherwise not do IRC, it's just one more hurdle in the process.  
> Whether it's useful or not, trivial or vital, no longer matters, it's 
> defined by the gatekeepers as a requirement, therefore, by said 
> definition, it is a requirement.
> 

If an otherwise-capable candidate developer is stuck in some backwater 
where the only ISP in the country has a 14-layer impenetrable protocol 
filter on IRC I'm sure their mentor will bend over backwards to work 
with them.  However, this is becoming more of an argument over points of 
rhetoric than anything with a practical impact.  If somebody is 
qualified to author gentoo documentation or write ebuilds they're going 
to be able to figure out how to use /query or /msg in any of 47 irc 
clients.

If somebody has some kind of physical/mental handicap that would prevent 
realtime communications but not otherwise interfere with contributions 
I'm sure a mentor would also be happy to try to work with that. 
However, it is important that mentors have an opportunity to get to know 
a candidate - they are responsible for their actions and you can't build 
trust by only sending a few emails back and forth.  Ultimately that is 
the goal - Gentoo is a community and those who want to be devs do need 
to be able to interact in at least a fairly nominal way with the 
community at large.

Gentoo has MANY things that could stand some change/improvement.  An 
over-dependence on IRC could arguably be said to be one of them. 
However, completely avoiding an effective realtime communications 
technology simply for the sake of doing so seems a bit over the top.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 12:45 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> posted
> 200905081342.17562.hwoarang@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Fri, 08 May
> 2009 13:42:13 +0300:
> 
> > On Friday 08 May 2009 12:19:28 Duncan wrote:
> >> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2009.05.06.17.25.14@cox.net,
> >>[..] If a potential recruit isn't interested in IRC,
> >> Gentoo isn't interested in them as developers."
> >>
> >> Which, I suppose, is good to know, agree or not.
> 
> > Ok now you are overreacting.  Joining IRC 2 times in your life ( just
> > for the review/recruit process ) is not that hard.
> 
> <Sigh. My intent was to put it to bed.>
> 
> If it's trivial enough that it's overreaction to refuse to join IRC twice 
> in one's life (which it should be noted, to my knowledge anyway, no one 
> has actually refused), then certainly, by that same mark of triviality, 
> it's overreaction to require it, as well.  Otherwise, if it wasn't simply 
> triviality, it wouldn't be overreaction, but misreaction.
> 
> But no matter, the practical fact of the matter is that for someone who 
> would otherwise not do IRC, it's just one more hurdle in the process.  
> Whether it's useful or not, trivial or vital, no longer matters, it's 
> defined by the gatekeepers as a requirement, therefore, by said 
> definition, it is a requirement.
> 
Well, you could always do it over the phone. :)

> It's good to know the requirements, including this one.  Which is what I 
> was asking in the original post, is it or isn't it.  Apparently, it is, 
> and anyone intending to become a developer can now deal with it as such.
> 
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Duncan]

Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> posted
1241794483.15135.19.camel@liasis.inforead.com, excerpted below, on  Fri,
08 May 2009 14:54:43 +0000:

> Well, you could always do it over the phone. :)

I had actually contemplated that.  With no additional cost VoIP to phone 
calling nation- or region-wide, and "free" direct IP sip-calling 
worldwide, and with email for code-samples...

Why stick with real-time text-only when there's real-time voice, with 
email for file attachments and the like?

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Thilo Bangert]

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> said:
> On Tue, 5 May 2009 21:19:49 +0300
>
> Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > We surely need more developers. Otherwise we ll end up maintaining
> > 100<x<500 each one.  Just look at the numbers ( total packages/total
> > ACTIVE developers ). So first we need to attract more people.
> > Evaluation and recruitment comes next
>
> I have a better way of improving those numbers: remove two thirds of
> the packages from the main tree.

to me, the above two contradictory viewpoints are the essence of the 
apparent and real decline in Gentoo activity. The two are just not 
compatible with each other and there is no clear guidance on to which of 
the two should be followed.

in the one corner we have the 'Daniel Robbins' corner, which stands for an 
open and inclusive process, which favors new comers, wants fast progress 
regardsless of the technical limitations of that process. also, being nice 
is more important than being correct. one central repository is where all 
development should happen - this is were we came from.

in the other corner is the gentoo leftover of the exherbo fork: the few 
people how continue to work on Gentoo but generally prefer the direction 
of Exherbo. technical elitism, explicitism and  formal standardization are 
their trade. being correct is more important than good intentions. 
overlays or multiple repositories help achieve a hierarchy of not-good-to-
supported ebuilds. we are halfway here...


it would be good if we collectively could agree on some of these issues, 
in order to move forward. as with many of the other technical discussions 
which lead to nowhere, it's more important that there is a clear 
direction, than into which direction we are headed.

maybe we need a debian project leader position - or a council, which is 
sensitive to the internal devide among developers and gives clear 
directions.

if the above offends you, please take a walk before replying. it may sound 
inflammtory - its not meant to be.

thanks
Thilo

Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

[Thilo Bangert]

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Olivier Huber <oli.huber@gmail.com> said:
> Hi,
>
> 2009/5/4 Thomas Sachau <tommy@gentoo.org>
>
> >[snip]
> > For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
> > ebuilds, there is already an option:
> >
> > Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
> > documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the
> > #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn
> > and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
> > create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them.
> > As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
> > maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of
> > missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild
> > development work themselves.
>
> I think these are really good advise but I think we could improve the
> way users can help concerning maintainer-needed packages.
> dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
> to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
> hole. For instance, the last bugday I tried to close some bugs. Some
> one them were assigned to maintainer-needed@,
> so I said on #gentoo-bugs that I've updated those bugs. Sometimes, a
> dev was watching and the issue was closed, but for others I have still
> no comments (Ok. I'm too impatient, but I'm not really confident. But
> some devs can still surprise me ;-) )
>
> I fully understand that looking at this type of bug is hard and
> boring. On the other hand, I know some devs who are willing to help
> and check patches. Since I don't think it would be a good practise to
> savagely CC' them, I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
> something like that.

many devs go through maintainer-needed bugs from time to time. i think the 
easy ones will get comitted fairly fast. instead of a bug-with-patch 
alias, i think a _easyfix_ alias could be more helpful. it could also be 
used by package maintainers, which dont have the time to do the _easyfix_ 
(rename version bump etc.)

sometimes the issue appears really simple, but it reallly isnt. in that 
case it would be nice, if it were deduceable from the bug, why no progress 
is being made.

also, i feel voting for bugs is completely underutilized. votes make it 
apparent to the developers which bugs bug a lot of people. the incentive 
to fix those first is there...

regards
Thilo

>
> Cheers,



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[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: Retiring)

[Duncan]

Thilo Bangert <bangert@gentoo.org> posted
200905101051.43926.bangert@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Sun, 10 May
2009 10:51:38 +0200:

> also, i feel voting for bugs is completely underutilized. votes make it
> apparent to the developers which bugs bug a lot of people. the incentive
> to fix those first is there...

Until recently, Gentoo's Bugzilla didn't even have the bug-votes feature 
and some devs were actively against the idea if one read the debate here 
on it.  The case they made was that bug votes reflect only user 
popularity, and as such, often tend to obscure the "importance" of the 
bug, arguments that they could simply ignore it if it wasn't useful info 
for them not withstanding.  I expect there are still devs of that opinion.

I know I've never use the bug vote feature, partly because I simply 
forget it's there now, and partly due to confusion from seeing the 
earlier rants against it.  Such confusion makes for pretty strong 
negative conditioning.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: Retiring)

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> Thilo Bangert <bangert@gentoo.org> posted
> 200905101051.43926.bangert@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Sun, 10 May
> 2009 10:51:38 +0200:
>
>> also, i feel voting for bugs is completely underutilized. votes make it
>> apparent to the developers which bugs bug a lot of people. the incentive
>> to fix those first is there...
>
> I know I've never use the bug vote feature, partly because I simply
> forget it's there now, and partly due to confusion from seeing the
> earlier rants against it.  Such confusion makes for pretty strong
> negative conditioning.
>

Also, most people I know use CCing-frequency as a measure of how many
people are facing a particular bug, and what importance level to
assign to it. Votes only cause unnecessary noise and irritation --
worse than "me too!" comments.


-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: Retiring)

[Thilo Bangert]

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Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> said:
> On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> > Thilo Bangert <bangert@gentoo.org> posted
> > 200905101051.43926.bangert@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Sun, 10
> > May
> >
> > 2009 10:51:38 +0200:
> >> also, i feel voting for bugs is completely underutilized. votes make
> >> it apparent to the developers which bugs bug a lot of people. the
> >> incentive to fix those first is there...
> >
> > I know I've never use the bug vote feature, partly because I simply
> > forget it's there now, and partly due to confusion from seeing the
> > earlier rants against it.  Such confusion makes for pretty strong
> > negative conditioning.
>
> Also, most people I know use CCing-frequency as a measure of how many
> people are facing a particular bug, and what importance level to
> assign to it. Votes only cause unnecessary noise and irritation --
> worse than "me too!" comments.

the number of people CC'ed to a certain bug is a good measure as well - 
however, i cant sort on that in bugzilla. also, i may have experienced a 
particular bug (and CCed to it), but its not a big deal to me. voting 
allows for a much more fine grained user preference in that case. a user 
only has 100 votes and can spend max 10 votes on a single bug - you can CC 
to as many bugs a you want.

"me too" is an important information on a bug and between a comment, a CC 
and a Vote i prefer the votes...

Thanks
Thilo


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thilo Bangert wrote:
> to me, the above two contradictory viewpoints are the essence of the 
> apparent and real decline in Gentoo activity. The two are just not 
> compatible with each other and there is no clear guidance on to which of 
> the two should be followed.
> 
> in the one corner we have the 'Daniel Robbins' corner, which stands for an 
> open and inclusive process, which favors new comers, wants fast progress 
> regardsless of the technical limitations of that process. also, being nice 
> is more important than being correct. one central repository is where all 
> development should happen - this is were we came from.
> 
> in the other corner is the gentoo leftover of the exherbo fork: the few 
> people how continue to work on Gentoo but generally prefer the direction 
> of Exherbo. technical elitism, explicitism and  formal standardization are 
> their trade. being correct is more important than good intentions. 
> overlays or multiple repositories help achieve a hierarchy of not-good-to-
> supported ebuilds. we are halfway here...
> 
> 
> it would be good if we collectively could agree on some of these issues, 
> in order to move forward. as with many of the other technical discussions 
> which lead to nowhere, it's more important that there is a clear 
> direction, than into which direction we are headed.
> 
> maybe we need a debian project leader position - or a council, which is 
> sensitive to the internal devide among developers and gives clear 
> directions.
> 
> if the above offends you, please take a walk before replying. it may sound 
> inflammtory - its not meant to be.
> 
> thanks
> Thilo
> 
People have been trying to resolve the situation you described for a 
long time. Working within it and minimising the negative effects of such 
stark contrasts in views has been one of the challenges of Gentoo in 
recent times. An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently 
works.

I doubt a figurehead would make any difference. They would need nerves 
of steel and would have to not care about making unpopular decisions and 
it would be difficult to take anyone from the current crop of 
[excellent] developers because it seems that everyone has taken sides 
already so immediately any decision was made an argument about bias 
would be likely come up

G

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.

An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
> George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
>> An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.
> 
> An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
> debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
> equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
> same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
> increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.
> 
Well, anything is better than the Romeo and Juliet-esque factions at war 
a few years ago; as you and plasmaroo could probably attest to.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Patrick Lauer]

On Tuesday 12 May 2009 00:31:36 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
>
> George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> > An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.
>
> An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
> debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
> equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
> same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
> increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.

At times I do wonder ... 

[long-winded rant following]

I've been using a few different distros over the last years. Mostly because 
people claimed that Gentoo is too hard (hey, it has a Big Friendly Manual and 
Ubuntu has a GUI installer! Ubuntu must be easier!) or didn't want to change 
their ways ("I've always used Debian Lenny. Why should I change now!")

What I realized after some time is that we're ahead of the curve. Baselayout 1 
is neat, but OpenRC is awesome. Machines rebooting in the time it takes some 
other init systems to not properly restart a service and such funny things. 
Service dependencies. A proper network config that doesn't make you bite the 
edge of the table in frustration.

Then there's package management. (Your favourite topic, I guess, because you 
want to keep complexifying it until one needs a PhD to write an ebuild [which, 
in a way, would be quite ironic])
Ever tried getting a newer version of PHP with _that_ feature enabled that the 
distro maintainer didn't like and thus disabled? Whee. Fun.
And on larger installations you usually need slightly customized packages, so 
these jokers build things from source. Manually. 
Makes it easy not to get updates too ...

Then you get the bonus features - you can have multiple versions of KDE 
installed at the same time. There's quite a lot of packages (some not that 
well maintained, but that's hard to avoid) and lots of unofficial and semi-
official overlays that have most things you need. 

So I'd say we're in a rather good position.

And now you say "delivering the same user experience" ... 
... ignoring the tons of new features and things that have happened. You're 
being dishonest again in an attempt to make us look like baboons. Two thirds 
of the new features grew on your compost heap (and half of these features we 
didn't even want, but after about three years of you pushing them at every 
opportunity people are getting so demotivated that they are willing to let you 
have one feature if you just STOP WHINING for more than 10 minutes)[GLEP55, 
for example - there's about 8 people that want it, but those keep bringing it 
up at EVERY opportunity. It's still a fundamentally stupid idea that doesn't 
solve any problems, and the claim that it might solve problems we have in the 
future is quite asinine because we can do the changes then, _if_ the 
theoretical problems actually become an issue, without messing up most 
everything now for some hypothetical gain that has not even conclusively shown 
...]

People have forked Gentoo with the goal of "making things better", and look 
where it leads them - most of them turn into a passive downstream of gentoo, 
absorbing bugfixes with a day to a month delay until bugfixes make it in. And 
those that don't stay passive slowly collapse until they are nothing more than 
a shiny webpage. 

People refuse to learn from that, but the "lessons" are quite obvious:

- We're not in a bad shape, dying or dead. We don't intend to. 

- Progress doesn't have to be disruptive features. Use-deps are a behind-the-
scenes improvement that few users hit directly, so most aren't even aware of 
the improvements happening

- More complex doesn't mean better.
"Perfection isn't when you cannot add more things but when there are none left 
to remove" or how that quote went. You know what I mean. Rewriting the init 
scripts in XML might be what some call progress (now you can verify 'em!), but 
it doesn't actually add any value and complexifies things in a bad way

- Repeating a lie can make it true, if you repeat it long enough. Worst case 
you just have to wait until everyone who disagrees dies of old age.

So anyways, just felt the need to rant a bit too. Can't let you keep a 
monopoly on that, eh?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Petteri Räty]

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Patrick Lauer wrote:
> 
> Then there's package management. (Your favourite topic, I guess, because you 
> want to keep complexifying it until one needs a PhD to write an ebuild [which, 
> in a way, would be quite ironic])
>

At least for me new EAPIs have been / are making ebuild writing easier.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[Thomas Anderson]

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On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 08:35:41AM +0200, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> On Tuesday 12 May 2009 00:31:36 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
> >
> > George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.
> >
> > An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
> > debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
> > equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
> > same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
> > increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.
> 
> Then there's package management. (Your favourite topic, I guess, because you 
> want to keep complexifying it until one needs a PhD to write an ebuild [which, 
> in a way, would be quite ironic])

Same as Petteri here, new EAPIs make ebuilds easier to write for me, not
harder.

> 
> And now you say "delivering the same user experience" ... 
> ... ignoring the tons of new features and things that have happened. You're 
> being dishonest again in an attempt to make us look like baboons. Two thirds 
> of the new features grew on your compost heap (and half of these features we 
> didn't even want, but after about three years of you pushing them at every 
> opportunity people are getting so demotivated that they are willing to let you 
> have one feature if you just STOP WHINING for more than 10 minutes)[GLEP55, 
> for example - there's about 8 people that want it, but those keep bringing it 
> up at EVERY opportunity. It's still a fundamentally stupid idea that doesn't 
> solve any problems, and the claim that it might solve problems we have in the 
> future is quite asinine because we can do the changes then, _if_ the 
> theoretical problems actually become an issue, without messing up most 
> everything now for some hypothetical gain that has not even conclusively shown 
> ...]

I'd wager there are more than 8 people that want it, but even so, just
because not many people realize its usefulness doesn't mean it's a bad
proposal(unpopular decisions != bad decisions, in other words).

The changes we want are something that we want soon, but there's nothing
we can do until something solving the problem GLEP 55 is solving is
approved.

Also, please stop the "compost heap", "whining" etc. It's tantamount to
a personal attack.

> 
> - We're not in a bad shape, dying or dead. We don't intend to. 

Few empires "intend" to die, but I'd agree that we're not dying/dead ;-).

> 
> - More complex doesn't mean better.
> "Perfection isn't when you cannot add more things but when there are none left 
> to remove" or how that quote went. You know what I mean. Rewriting the init 
> scripts in XML might be what some call progress (now you can verify 'em!), but 
> it doesn't actually add any value and complexifies things in a bad way

I've not seen anything complexifying things for no benefit recently.
Care to mention those?
> 
> - Repeating a lie can make it true, if you repeat it long enough. Worst case 
> you just have to wait until everyone who disagrees dies of old age.
> 

Most things people are calling "lies" I'd call more "opinions that I
disagree with". We really do dramatize and bring too much importance on
disagreements ;-). Also, I imagine you're talking about glep54/glep55
none of which there have been lies spread by their proponents(that I've
seen).

-- 
---------
Thomas Anderson
Gentoo Developer
/////////
Areas of responsibility:
AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council
---------

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