[gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Andrey Grozin]

Hello *,

Wouldn't it be nice to move scipy from sci-libs to dev-python? All similar 
and related packages live in dev-python: numeric, scientificpython, 
matplotlib... I know that moving packages is a major pain in the #$$, but 
the present situation seems illogical (I would never guess to search for 
this package in sci-libs if I didn't know it's there).

Andrey
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 917 bytes --]

On 02:59 Tue 08 Jul     , Andrey Grozin wrote:
> Wouldn't it be nice to move scipy from sci-libs to dev-python? All 
> similar and related packages live in dev-python: numeric, 
> scientificpython, matplotlib... I know that moving packages is a major 
> pain in the #$$, but the present situation seems illogical (I would never 
> guess to search for this package in sci-libs if I didn't know it's 
> there).

Why would you be searching by looking in categories anyway? There are 
tons of dedicated search tools.

I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be 
categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented 
in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category 
moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Joe Peterson]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be 
> categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented 
> in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category 
> moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.

Do you mean it is pointless because categories are pointless, or because
it is not worth the trouble of doing the move?  I assume we inherited
the category idea from fbsd ports.

Since we have categories (and assuming we'll keep them), I think that
things should be categorized as correctly as possible (perhaps it's not
the highest priority, but better to have it right than not, eventually).

If it is better to have scipy in sci-libs rather dev-python, then
perhaps other dev-python packages (like you said) should be moved
elsewhere to be consistent.  A quick look at the fbsd ports shows that
scipy is in "science" and numpy is in "math" (for example), so that
agrees with your feeling that neither belong in dev-python.

					-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1238 bytes --]

On 21:51 Mon 07 Jul     , Joe Peterson wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be 
> > categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented 
> > in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category 
> > moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.
> 
> Do you mean it is pointless because categories are pointless, or because
> it is not worth the trouble of doing the move?  I assume we inherited
> the category idea from fbsd ports.

I meant moves were largely pointless, although categories are to a 
lesser extent. Tags would be a lot better, since nothing can be 
categorized perfectly into a single place.

> Since we have categories (and assuming we'll keep them), I think that
> things should be categorized as correctly as possible (perhaps it's not
> the highest priority, but better to have it right than not, eventually).

I don't think it's worth losing track of the CVS history just so we can 
have something in a different place that ultimately is hardly useful to 
anyone.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Andrey Grozin]

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be
> categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented
> in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category
> moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.
Then this particular case belongs to the other 10% :-)
It is not really important for a user if a library is written in C or 
fortran, because he can call it from his own programs written in any 
language. But python modules are only useful for somebody who is going to 
write his own python code and import them.

sci-libs/scipi and dev-python/scientificpython are two competing projects 
which have practically identical aims and descriptions. Do you think this 
is logical?

Andrey
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Alec Warner]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Joe Peterson <lavajoe@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be
>> categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented
>> in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category
>> moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.
>
> Do you mean it is pointless because categories are pointless, or because
> it is not worth the trouble of doing the move?  I assume we inherited
> the category idea from fbsd ports.

It is pointless because we should probably have tags; not categories.
It is akin to the Section[1] header in a debian control file.

[1] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections

>
> Since we have categories (and assuming we'll keep them), I think that
> things should be categorized as correctly as possible (perhaps it's not
> the highest priority, but better to have it right than not, eventually).

Have you moved a package between categories before?

It is not simple to do correctly which is why no one likes to do them
unless they
are 'necessary'.

'epkgmove' invokes bad memories for many ;)

>
> If it is better to have scipy in sci-libs rather dev-python, then
> perhaps other dev-python packages (like you said) should be moved
> elsewhere to be consistent.  A quick look at the fbsd ports shows that
> scipy is in "science" and numpy is in "math" (for example), so that
> agrees with your feeling that neither belong in dev-python.
>
>                                        -Joe
> --
> gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Joe Peterson]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> I meant moves were largely pointless, although categories are to a 
> lesser extent. Tags would be a lot better, since nothing can be 
> categorized perfectly into a single place.

Yes, I can see the benefit of a tag paradigm.  I, myself, find it more
trouble than benefit to have the extra directory level.  I often do "cd
/usr/portage/*/foo" to get to the foo package, and it often gets a hit
in licenses or elsewhere that trips up this practice...

> I don't think it's worth losing track of the CVS history just so we can 
> have something in a different place that ultimately is hardly useful to 
> anyone.

Ah yes, CVS would present a problem here.  I suppose if/when the whole
tree is converted to svn, at that point moves would be more practical.
Too bad, though, that this has become a barrier to the ability to change
a category easily and without losing the history.

						-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1496 bytes --]

On 04:03 Tue 08 Jul     , Andrey Grozin wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> I actually object to having crap in dev-python, because things should be
>> categorized functionally instead of by the language they're implemented
>> in. 90% of the time you don't care about the language. But category
>> moves are pretty much pointless, so I don't normally bring it up.
> Then this particular case belongs to the other 10% :-)
> It is not really important for a user if a library is written in C or  
> fortran, because he can call it from his own programs written in any  
> language. But python modules are only useful for somebody who is going to 
> write his own python code and import them.

Right, sure. Here's the way I see it: chances are that someone realizes 
they want to write a scientific application, and then look to see what 
libraries are available to write it with, instead of deciding they want 
to write some sort of library for an unknown purpose using Python and 
then say, "Hey, I think I'll do something scientific."

> sci-libs/scipi and dev-python/scientificpython are two competing projects 
> which have practically identical aims and descriptions. Do you think this 
> is logical?

Logical? Not particularly. Does it matter, when considering the costs of 
moving packages in CVS and how search tools work? Not particularly.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Joe Peterson wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> I meant moves were largely pointless, although categories are to a 
>> lesser extent. Tags would be a lot better, since nothing can be 
>> categorized perfectly into a single place.
> 
> Yes, I can see the benefit of a tag paradigm.  I, myself, find it more
> trouble than benefit to have the extra directory level.  I often do "cd
> /usr/portage/*/foo" to get to the foo package, and it often gets a hit
> in licenses or elsewhere that trips up this practice...
> 
>> I don't think it's worth losing track of the CVS history just so we can 
>> have something in a different place that ultimately is hardly useful to 
>> anyone.
> 
> Ah yes, CVS would present a problem here.  I suppose if/when the whole
> tree is converted to svn, at that point moves would be more practical.

I suppose you mean git. Since it tracks content and not files, moves are
trivial. Git actually finds your moves for you, after you've moved content
around; such as when doing a bump.

> Too bad, though, that this has become a barrier to the ability to change
> a category easily and without losing the history.
> 
> 						-Joe

Marijn

- --
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkhzlyYACgkQp/VmCx0OL2wQhACfa+iXqTwStNuVC26R9IylNq4r
QKMAnjisaTHaqe/Mbu6vMt/waElHgVRb
=97k+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Joe Peterson]

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> I suppose you mean git. Since it tracks content and not files, moves are
> trivial. Git actually finds your moves for you, after you've moved content
> around; such as when doing a bump.

Even better!

	-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 516 bytes --]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:34:46 +0200
"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I suppose you mean git. Since it tracks content and not files, moves
> are trivial. Git actually finds your moves for you, after you've
> moved content around; such as when doing a bump.

Ever tried git on an ebuild repository? Ebuilds are sufficiently
similar to each other that it quite often gets this horribly wrong. And
to make matters worse, there's no way of overriding it when it does.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:34:46 +0200
> "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I suppose you mean git. Since it tracks content and not files, moves
>> are trivial. Git actually finds your moves for you, after you've
>> moved content around; such as when doing a bump.
> 
> Ever tried git on an ebuild repository? Ebuilds are sufficiently
> similar to each other that it quite often gets this horribly wrong. And
> to make matters worse, there's no way of overriding it when it does.

Yes, we have a git overlay. I haven't noticed it getting it wrong yet.

Marijn

- --
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkh0jcwACgkQp/VmCx0OL2xA6QCeIgh+/CyZXnGmW5+wNirR+Rao
NnEAnRvj9/dIE7WTfG3a/R3TmWFbFaVM
=xuwQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] sci-libs/scipy -> dev-python/scipy ?

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1297 bytes --]

On 12:07 Wed 09 Jul     , Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:34:46 +0200
> > "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> I suppose you mean git. Since it tracks content and not files, moves
> >> are trivial. Git actually finds your moves for you, after you've
> >> moved content around; such as when doing a bump.
> > 
> > Ever tried git on an ebuild repository? Ebuilds are sufficiently
> > similar to each other that it quite often gets this horribly wrong. And
> > to make matters worse, there's no way of overriding it when it does.
> 
> Yes, we have a git overlay. I haven't noticed it getting it wrong yet.

I suspect the problematic case might be two pretty basic template 
ebuilds of different packages. This would most likely be a problem when 
one is added and another is removed in the same commit, although that's 
the wrong workflow. I'm not sure whether it would also be a problem with 
multiple commits. I suppose you'd see the problem when you were trying 
to track the passage of certain code blocks across multiple commits 
(pickaxe).

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]