[gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Ferris McCormick]

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I think nominations are open.  I nominate
rane
welp
zlin

I think I've spelt all of them correctly and that all three are are
qualified.

Regards,
Ferris
- -- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel, Userrel, Trustees)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I think nominations are open.  I nominate
> rane
> welp
> zlin

Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
alphabetical order:
amne
betelgeuse
dberkholz
flameeyes
jokey
lu_zero
vapier

Denis.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Josh Saddler]

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Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
> alphabetical order:
> amne
> betelgeuse
> dberkholz
> flameeyes
> jokey
> lu_zero
> vapier

Seconded.

(Also...it's voting time already? Can't believe it's already been a year.)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Josh Saddler wrote:
> Denis Dupeyron wrote:
>> Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
>> alphabetical order:
>> amne
>> betelgeuse
>> dberkholz
>> flameeyes
>> jokey
>> lu_zero
>> vapier
> 
> Seconded.
> 
Thirded
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Łukasz Damentko]

2008/6/3 Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org>:
> I think nominations are open.

Not yet.
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Duncan]

Josh Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> posted 4844ED2D.4030009@gentoo.org,
excerpted below, on  Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:05:17 -0700:

> (Also...it's voting time already? Can't believe it's already been a
> year.)

It hasn't been... but rather than bring politics into the discussion 
here, I'll simply refer you to the council and/or project groups/lists.

Or was that missing the <sarcasm> or <joke> tags. =8^)

-- 
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Alex Howells]

2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
> Thirded

Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Richard Brown]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Alex Howells <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> nominate or support nominations?
>
> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> gets a second.

Someone can clarify, but don't you need nominations to be open to
nominate people?
--
Richard Brown
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Łukasz Damentko]

2008/6/3 Richard Brown <mynamewasgone@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Alex Howells <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>> nominate or support nominations?
>>
>> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
>> gets a second.
>
> Someone can clarify, but don't you need nominations to be open to
> nominate people?

Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
will have nominate again after we open if for real.

-- 

Łukasz Damentko

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Alex Howells wrote:
> 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
>> Thirded
> 
> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> nominate or support nominations?
> 
> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> gets a second.

Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:

>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>> nominate or support nominations?
>> 
>> [...]

> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.

GLEP 39 says something else:

| * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
|   once per year.

Ulrich
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Ferris McCormick wrote:
|
| I think nominations are open.  I nominate
| rane
| welp
| zlin
|
| I think I've spelt all of them correctly and that all three are are
| qualified.
|
| Regards,
| Ferris
éí¢‡^¾X¬¶È\x1ežÚ(¢¸&j)bž	bst==

As Łukasz replied, the election process hasn't started yet. There will
be an official announcement about it, before nominations will be accepted.
We will clarify all rules for the voting until then.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:
> 
>>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>>> nominate or support nominations?
>>>
>>> [...]
> 
>> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
> 
> GLEP 39 says something else:
> 
> | * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
> |   once per year.
> 
> Ulrich

Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
6.  Voting Process

     * Council elections generally happen once a year
<snip>
     * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

I have voted in the previous 3 elections, 2 of my nominations accepted 
in 2006 :)

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-nominees.xml
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:46:53 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
> 6.  Voting Process
> 
>      * Council elections generally happen once a year
> <snip>
>      * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

Maybe the Council should address that. Who is "anyone"? Developers,
Gentoo staff or _really_ anyone?

Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
been a developer for six months. Thoughts?


Kind regards,
     JeR
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> been a developer for six months. Thoughts?

You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:17:05 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> > developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> > been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
> 
> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules.

I'm not confusing anything. I said I would have thought there was such
a requirement, which isn't the same as saying I thought there was such
a requirement. What I meant to say was - I think there should be such a
requirement.


     JeR
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Ryan Hill]

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On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:46:53 +0100
> George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:
> > 
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
> > 6.  Voting Process
> > 
> >      * Council elections generally happen once a year
> > <snip>
> >      * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
> 
> Maybe the Council should address that. Who is "anyone"? Developers,
> Gentoo staff or _really_ anyone?

AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user
alike.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Donnie Berkholz]

On 12:07 Tue 03 Jun     , Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
> weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
> will have nominate again after we open if for real.

That sounds like pointless bureaucracy ... is there any reason?

Thanks,
Donnie
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Duncan]

Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on  Tue, 03
Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:

> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.

Which does make sense.  Giving the community nomination power gives them 
some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential, since 
they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do.  As with any nominee, if 
the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone else.  No harm 
done unless the devs consent to it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Richard Freeman]

Duncan wrote:
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
> 20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on  Tue, 03
> Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:
> 
>> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.
> 
> Which does make sense.  Giving the community nomination power gives them 
> some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential, since 
> they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do.  As with any nominee, if 
> the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone else.  No harm 
> done unless the devs consent to it.
> 

Agreed, but since there is a trend towards taking everything literally 
these days I do want to point out that this opens up a DoS attack - you 
could end up with a ballot 40 miles long if people use throwaway email 
addresses to make and second and accept nominations.

Normally I'd just assume that if this were to happen common sense would 
prevail and these nominations would be excluded, but since there is a 
trend towards policy-trumps-sense perhaps the policy should be that 
anybody can nominate, but only devs can second a nomination?  After all, 
if not even one dev supports a nomination what is the point of putting 
it on a ballot that only devs vote on?  We could call the policy 
G:ACNBDMS (Gentoo: Anybody can nominate but devs must second) in tribute 
to another project where ability to quote policy is becoming more 
important than ability to add value...  :)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Richard Freeman wrote:
| Duncan wrote:
|> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
|> 20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on
|> Tue, 03
|> Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:
|>
|>> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.
|>
|> Which does make sense.  Giving the community nomination power gives
|> them some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential,
|> since they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do.  As with any
|> nominee, if the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone
|> else.  No harm done unless the devs consent to it.
|>
|
| Agreed, but since there is a trend towards taking everything literally
| these days I do want to point out that this opens up a DoS attack - you
| could end up with a ballot 40 miles long if people use throwaway email
| addresses to make and second and accept nominations.
|

Richard,

you're forgetting that only devs can be nominated and that one has to
accept a nomination to be part of the ballot. At most, you could have
the total number of devs on the ballot and that is something you can't
prevent.

| Normally I'd just assume that if this were to happen common sense would
| prevail and these nominations would be excluded, but since there is a
| trend towards policy-trumps-sense perhaps the policy should be that
| anybody can nominate, but only devs can second a nomination?  After all,
| if not even one dev supports a nomination what is the point of putting
| it on a ballot that only devs vote on?  We could call the policy
| G:ACNBDMS (Gentoo: Anybody can nominate but devs must second) in tribute
| to another project where ability to quote policy is becoming more
| important than ability to add value...  :)

No need to complex rules here. See above point.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> Alex Howells wrote:
> > 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
> >> Thirded
> > 
> > Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> > nominate or support nominations?
> > 
> > Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> > gets a second.
> 
> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.

Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
Foundation.

There are similar stipulations for time on board, etc before one can
vote in either Foundation or Council elections/votes. But they are
different. One needs to only be a developer, that has met time
requirements, to vote for Council. Pretty sure same stipulations apply
to running for Council position.

At this time Foundation Membership has nothing do with developer status,
or qualifications to vote in Council elections. In fact I believe a
current Gentoo Developer could elect to not be a member of the
foundation. They would still retain all status and rights as a
developer. Including voting rights on any vote or election put forth by
any entity Council, etc other than the Foundation to it's members.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 18:17 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> > developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> > been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
> 
> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
> aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
> doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.

IMHO the Council should be written into the Foundation Bylaws. Replacing
and deprecating GLEP 39.

Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.

Unlike GLEP 39 Put in a legal document, giving the Council legal power.
Not just power per some GLEP or other unofficial doc, being used for a
purpose other than it's intention. Much less make it easier to see and
understand the structure of Gentoo to an outsider.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Richard Freeman]

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
> in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
> project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
> Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
> rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.
> 

Would this run into any kinds of legal issues?  Essentially you're 
creating a non-profit corporation whose governance is subject to what is 
effectively a board of directors that is very loosely defined/ elected/ 
etc.  I'd think that this would run into issues legally, but I suppose 
that being a non-public company it might not be an issue.  If you're not 
already familiar with such things you might want to talk to a lawyer.

I'm torn on this.  In theory the council and trustees/foundation should 
be well-coordinated and they're really just two parts of a single 
effort.  However, for legal reasons the money-handling parts of the 
distro are subject to a lot of controls that need not apply to 
everything else.  If we mix them we either need to formalize more of 
what happens, or potentially risk running into legal issues.

If a lawyer doesn't see this as a problem then just disregard everything 
above.  A little more formality might not kill the project, but on the 
other hand we don't want to create too many barriers to council members 
who are volunteers.  In a more significant corporation like the Red 
Cross I suspect that board members would be paid to attend meetings.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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Speaking more officially, less personal opinion.

On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 18:49 -0400, Richard Freeman wrote:
>
> Would this run into any kinds of legal issues?

Should prevent any.

> If you're not 
> already familiar with such things you might want to talk to a lawyer.

As it pertains we will likely have counsel review the final Bylaws. We
will also solicit advice from counsel when needed regarding future
Bylaws revisions or other matters.

> I'm torn on this.  In theory the council and trustees/foundation should 
> be well-coordinated and they're really just two parts of a single 
> effort. 

That's the idea. Two heads, thinking doing different things
uncoordinated on same body? :)

> If we mix them we either need to formalize more of 
> what happens, or potentially risk running into legal issues.

Really it's a paper formality. Daily operations do not change. Just
clarification of duties and separation on paper. In one document :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:52, Ferris McCormick wrote:
> I think nominations are open.

I'd like to nominate:

Ingmar
ColdWind

- ferdy
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
>> Alex Howells wrote:
>>> 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
>>>> Thirded
>>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>>> nominate or support nominations?
>>>
>>> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
>>> gets a second.
>> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
> 
> Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
> believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
> Foundation.

Sorry, my bad. I presumed he was talking about the council
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Łukasz Damentko]

2008/6/4 Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org>:
> On 12:07 Tue 03 Jun     , Łukasz Damentko wrote:
>> Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
>> weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
>> will have nominate again after we open if for real.
>
> That sounds like pointless bureaucracy ... is there any reason?
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
> --
> gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

You are right. We've decided to accept those nominations that were
filed prior to us officially opening the process. To fullfill
formality, I will just renominate everybody who was nominated too
early:

So, I (re-)nominate:

welp
zlin
Ingmar
ColdWind

and ... myself, since I was nominated too. And I officially decline to
run in this election.

Regards,

Łukasz Damentko

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Samuli Suominen]

Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> I think nominations are open.  I nominate

Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)

flameeyes
vapier
dberkholz
aballier
ingmar
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Ryan Hill]

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > 
> > I think nominations are open.  I nominate
> 
> Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
> 
> flameeyes
> vapier
> dberkholz
> aballier
> ingmar

just picking a random mail to reply to.

gentoo-project people!  this is why it exists.

</analretentive>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Patrick Börjesson]

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On 2008-06-05 15:34, Ryan Hill uttered these thoughts:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
> Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> > Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
> > > 
> > > I think nominations are open.  I nominate
> > 
> > Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
> > 
> > flameeyes
> > vapier
> > dberkholz
> > aballier
> > ingmar
> 
> just picking a random mail to reply to.
> 
> gentoo-project people!  this is why it exists.
> 
> </analretentive>

Actually, it was stated in the originating mail (starting the nomination
period) that "All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing
list."

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations for council

[Ryan Hill]

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:08:24 +0200
Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> wrote:

> > just picking a random mail to reply to.
> > 
> > gentoo-project people!  this is why it exists.
> > 
> > </analretentive>
> 
> Actually, it was stated in the originating mail (starting the
> nomination period) that "All nominations must be sent to the
> gentoo-dev mailing list."

D'oh.  My mistake. ;)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Doug Goldstein]

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 18:17 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
>> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>     
>>> Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
>>> developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
>>> been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
>>>       
>> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
>> aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
>> doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.
>>     
>
> IMHO the Council should be written into the Foundation Bylaws. Replacing
> and deprecating GLEP 39.
>
> Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
> in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
> project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
> Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
> rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.
>
> Unlike GLEP 39 Put in a legal document, giving the Council legal power.
> Not just power per some GLEP or other unofficial doc, being used for a
> purpose other than it's intention. Much less make it easier to see and
> understand the structure of Gentoo to an outsider.
>
>   
The Gentoo Foundation and the Gentoo Council are two different entities. 
For further reference please refer to the FreeBSD Foundation and the 
FreeBSD Project. What you're implying is that the Gentoo Foundation is 
over/owns the Gentoo Council. Which is completely and categorically wrong.
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:35 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:
> 
> The Gentoo Foundation and the Gentoo Council are two different entities. 

But the one Gentoo

Two heads one body. Usually doesn't work for most animals or humans. One
ends up being a parasite to the other.

> For further reference please refer to the FreeBSD Foundation and the 
> FreeBSD Project.

Ok

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml

"The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
to supporting the FreeBSD Project."

It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.

"The FreeBSD Foundation will support both the development and the
popularization of FreeBSD, the world's best open source operating
system"

More so when in that page it goes into things like

"Development of software for FreeBSD to benefit the user and developer
community, including contract development of critical system
infrastructure, porting of closed source applications such as Java(TM)."

IMHO I would like the council to have say over matters like that with
trustees/the foundation only being a liaison.

>  What you're implying is that the Gentoo Foundation is 
> over/owns the Gentoo Council.

That is a issue of power, which has no bearings on what I am talking
about. I am implying the two area attached to the same body. Thus the
they should work together as a whole unit/single organization.

Not this two entities crap, one body.

>  Which is completely and categorically wrong.

Provide facts to prove that.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[Donnie Berkholz]

On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun     , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
> 
> "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
> 
> It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.

I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the 
documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything 
related to how the project itself is governed. It's very much a 
boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and 
that's about it."

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 14:13 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun     , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
> > 
> > "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> > to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
> > 
> > It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> > I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.
> 
> I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the 
> documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything 
> related to how the project itself is governed.

So we would be different from BSD in this regard. Are we trying to be
like others? Our current structure is unlike any others. Our entire
distro is unlike any other. So why are we trying to compare apples to
oranges?

Where is BSD's GLEP 39? Or where is their council talked about or
mentioned?

>  It's very much a 
> boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and 
> that's about it."

Instead of all this speculation. Would you all like me to open a dialog
with the BSD folks and get details from within? With regard to how their
foundation and project relate to each other.

As for their Bylaws, if they aren't cover things we are. Is that reason
for us to omit those things from ours?

The BSD foundation doesn't seem to be accounting for sponsors services
and etc. Does that mean we should not either? Possibly but that
particular decision should be made by a Certified Public Accountant.
Which I don't think any Gentoo Developer is currently.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[Donnie Berkholz]

On 17:55 Fri 06 Jun     , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 14:13 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun     , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
> > > 
> > > "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> > > to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
> > > 
> > > It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> > > I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.
> > 
> > I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the 
> > documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything 
> > related to how the project itself is governed.
> 
> So we would be different from BSD in this regard. Are we trying to be
> like others? Our current structure is unlike any others. Our entire
> distro is unlike any other. So why are we trying to compare apples to
> oranges?

Like comparing Gentoo to a single-brained animal with multiple heads? No 
comparisons are perfect, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to learn 
from them because we're so unique.

> Where is BSD's GLEP 39? Or where is their council talked about or
> mentioned?

Some related pages:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/index.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/model-orgstruct.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/sect-hats.html#ROLE-CORE
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/process-core-election.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/process-reactions.html

> >  It's very much a 
> > boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and 
> > that's about it."
> 
> Instead of all this speculation. Would you all like me to open a dialog
> with the BSD folks and get details from within? With regard to how their
> foundation and project relate to each other.
> 
> As for their Bylaws, if they aren't cover things we are. Is that reason
> for us to omit those things from ours?
> 
> The BSD foundation doesn't seem to be accounting for sponsors services
> and etc. Does that mean we should not either? Possibly but that
> particular decision should be made by a Certified Public Accountant.
> Which I don't think any Gentoo Developer is currently.

It might be part of restricted income contributions on the profit & loss 
report.

Thanks,
Donnie
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gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:23 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>
> Like comparing Gentoo to a single-brained animal with multiple heads?

But that it is. You have two entities, that both are related to Gentoo
in some form. Overlapping membership, staff, interests, etc.

>  No comparisons are perfect, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to learn 
> from them because we're so unique.

I agree 100%. My logic is cherry pick what we like from each. Thus ideas
from Gnome Foundation ( paid business bull$hit "advisory" members ),
some from BSD Foundation ( dev travel grants, equipment/infra funding ),
and some from Debian ( Debconf )

> It might be part of restricted income contributions on the profit & loss 
> report.

I believe it has to be accounted for in some form as "in kind"
donations. Non tangible goods and services that still have a value.
Definitely if we receive them on a re-occurring basis. Even more so if
other companies are using that as write off as a charitable expenses.
IRS will want to compare what they are deducting is showing up on the
other end. :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] OT Foundation <-> Council was -> Nominations for council

[Chris Gianelloni]

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Can you take this off-topic thread to the appropriate list?  I'm pretty
tired with hearing the Foundation's self-promotional comments on how
important it is to development on this list.  You guys have your own
list for that crap, as it is.

Thanks,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Santiago M. Mola]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to nominate:
>
> ColdWind
>

ferdy, thanks for the nomination.

astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
convinced me for running for Council.

I decline.

Regards,
-- 
Santiago M. Mola
Jabber ID: cooldwind@gmail.com
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Alex Howells]

2008/6/7 Santiago M. Mola <coldwind@gentoo.org>:
>
> ferdy, thanks for the nomination.
>
> astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
> convinced me for running for Council.

Any time :)  In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
wants that spot on the ticket? ;)  I'd like to nominate him too.
Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
only be a good thing.

Alex
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gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:21:11 +0100
"Alex Howells" <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Any time :)  In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
> wants that spot on the ticket? ;)  I'd like to nominate him too.
> Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
> only be a good thing.

Er, I accept. Thanks.


Kind regards,
     JeR
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On 7 Jun 2008, at 21:21, Alex Howells wrote:

> 2008/6/7 Santiago M. Mola <coldwind@gentoo.org>:
>>
>> ferdy, thanks for the nomination.
>>
>> astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
>> convinced me for running for Council.
>
> Any time :)  In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
> wants that spot on the ticket? ;)  I'd like to nominate him too.
> Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
> only be a good thing.

Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must suck  
being you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)

- ferdy
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Alex Howells]

2008/6/7 Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org>:
> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must suck being
> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)

I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
who'd be bad for the project.  Hopefully that means we get the Council
from last year, with one or two new faces?
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On 8 Jun 2008, at 14:34, Alex Howells wrote:

> 2008/6/7 Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org>:
>> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must  
>> suck being
>> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)
>
> I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
> who'd be bad for the project.  Hopefully that means we get the Council
> from last year, with one or two new faces?

Hopefully everyone would be 'new' and only a couple of people (if not  
less) repeat. This council hasn't really done anything right.

- ferdy

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Chrissy Fullam]

> >> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must
> >> suck being
> >> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)
> >
> > I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
> > who'd be bad for the project.  Hopefully that means we get the Council
> > from last year, with one or two new faces?
> 
> Hopefully everyone would be 'new' and only a couple of people (if not
> less) repeat. This council hasn't really done anything right.

I think we are losing site of the point here, that being council nominations
and soliciting those nominees for their views on matters that any of us find
relevant.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but how we share those opinions
is a privilege not a right. Read: insults, attacks, and abrasive behavior
are not acceptable and DevRel will not tolerate this. I encourage someone to
talk about what they feel the next council could do better, or even list
examples where they feel our current council went wrong, in their eyes; but
do so in a manner that provokes civil discussion so we may all be the better
for it.


Kind regards,
Christina Fullam
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | Gentoo Public Relations 




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[Alexis Ballier]

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > 
> > I think nominations are open.  I nominate
> 
> Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
[..]
> aballier

Thanks, but I decline. Considering all the nominee, I think there are
enough people probably more able than I am to run a council. My habit
of not getting involved in endless discussions would have probably not
helped to get elected anyway ;) Moreover, with all the recent
threads here, I don't think I want to be in the group that will have to
take the decisions.

Regards,

Alexis.

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