From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JmZ9t-0001JR-Kt for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:48:33 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 30507E0673; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from s15216962.onlinehome-server.info (s15216962.onlinehome-server.info [217.160.22.205]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FE9E0673 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by s15216962.onlinehome-server.info (8.13.3/8.13.3) with UUCP id m3HImUId003101 for gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:48:30 +0200 Received: (from weigelt@localhost) by nibiru.metux.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) id m3HIljZX013016 for gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:47:45 +0200 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:47:45 +0200 From: Enrico Weigelt To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] PostgreSQL Status Message-ID: <20080417184745.GG31409@nibiru.local> References: <4807115C.6090904@gentoo.org> <20080417164003.GB31409@nibiru.local> <8b4c83ad0804170952s5728a968v60f04f30a66e3a25@mail.gmail.com> <20080417170753.GE31409@nibiru.local> <8b4c83ad0804171029v2e37bb06i98431e96dce2876c@mail.gmail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8b4c83ad0804171029v2e37bb06i98431e96dce2876c@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Terror: bin laden, kill bush, Briefbombe, Massenvernichtung, KZ, X-Nazi: Weisse Rasse, Hitlers Wiederauferstehung, 42, X-Antichrist: weg mit schaeuble, ausrotten, heiliger krieg, al quaida, X-Killer: 23, endloesung, Weltuntergang, X-Doof: wer das liest ist doof X-Archives-Salt: 5d554859-2e2d-4d2b-aaac-89af48d85ef6 X-Archives-Hash: 4ae25d55a87b10e8cb0273276ed54dc8 * Nirbheek Chauhan schrieb: > > Would be different if you'd said "we don't need to split since we > > have useflags" or "we want to stay as near to upstream as possible" > > instead of "we're not debian". Being different, just to be > > different is really too pubertal for me ;-o > > > > The person you were replying to is a Gentoo Council member, elected by > the very devs that run Gentoo. I believe one should try and look > deeper in the meaning of such a man's words before labelling them as > "pubertal". Well, this is my personal feeling, and this is totally independent from his position. I've just got headaches with this "we're not debian" argumentation. Surely there are technical reasons to do certain things different than other distros, and so we should talk about exactly about these points. (problem -> analyis -> solution). Just insisting on being different isn't a technical reason, just an pubertal behaviour (well, there are good reasons for this behaviour in that that age, eg. becoming independent from the parent generation). This reminds me on the "anti-fascist" folks here in Germany, who tend to define themselves on being "against fascists" and declaring everyone with different opponions to be one (note that Germany never had noticable fascist movements - we had national socialists, but that's very different ;-O) > The words of a veteran usually aren't written in blind emotion or with > prejudice. Might be. But in this case, I really feel different. Please let's talk about concepts and practises of other distros objectively, leaving out personal antipathies. Every one has different views and needs, and technical decisions should derive them them, not from personal taste. So for example the splitting issue has to be decided for each package. As we're currently talking about PostgreSQL, we have to look at the possible ways to do (or not to do) so with it and weight the pros and cons of the different options. This decision process should be individual to each package - there is no (good) universal answer. If you try to declare an universal answer to everyone, you get religious ;-P > > Right, binary distros have a much bigger presure on that, but this > > doesn't mean that splitting is always bad. > > There are specific use-cases where splitting is good, such as with > gstreamer, gtk-sharp, gnome-python{,-desktop,-extras} which are > essentially dependencies of other packages, and where built_with_use > checks are horrid to use. Yes, and there a lots of them. Classical example: language bindings for certain libs. They really should be different packages. But, of course, the fault mostly comes from the upstream and individual distros aren't the right place to fix this (again, one of the reasons why I founded the OSS-QM project). > I personally have no opinion about the -base and -server split, since > I do not know enough about it. But I am firmly against the -docs split > since the doc USE flag is for this use-case, and I see no reason why > not to use it. Historically, the manuals (actually, electronic books - printed out about 1k pages) have been an separate package from upstream. And this for a good reason: they an different entitiy (even maintained by different people), quite large and (un)related to the rest of PQ just like an programming book to an invidiual compiler (note that it's also contains of the most complete posix-SQL references in the OSS world). > Just stick a USE=doc on -base and be done with it This has an major drawback: requires to do an complete rebuild/reinstall of the whole package if you just need the manual. When setting up an new server, you normally don't need the complete manual installed (assuming you're already confident w/ PQ), but you need it someday later when you have to look up something and other media (web access or printed out) are not convenient/available. I, personally, don't *need* it at all, but having an separate package makes it more convenient. And I don't see any reasons against that split as long as people are willing to maintain it. cu -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list