[gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Robin H. Johnson]

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Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
questions to put on a new user survey.

For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
don't know' should be available in most questions.

I don't have the original questions on hand right now (but i'm trying to
get them), so used some classical census questions. Some of the ones I
threw in are just what came to mind, I'd love to hear more questions and
more sections.

In the style of census, maybe offering a short form and a long form
questionnaire would be useful too?

Basic demographics - a bunch of this should probably be optional but recommended
- Gender (M, F, and the various other forms here)
- Year of birth
- # of children??
- How many years have you been using computers?

Sociocultural information (again, optional stuff):
- Location (country, and free-form city)
- Level of education?
- Job? (type coding this one is hard, and I'd prefer not to have it)
- Income level

Computer-general questions:
- Do you program?
- Checkboxes for some programming languages

Usage of Gentoo:
- Home
- School
- Work
- Other

(usage spawns the following set of questions)

Home/School/Work/Other systems:
- # of server/desktop/laptop/embedded systems?
- Language of system
- What arches, stable/testing keywords?
- Time spent weekly administering your $TYPE systems
- Sync frequency
- Do you share your portage tree between systems
- Do you share your distfiles between systems
- Do you share your binpkgs between systems
- Window Manager
- Kernel
- System specs (maybe follow the Value surveys for some questions)
- Distro breakdowns (folks that don't have exclusively Gentoo systems)
- Ask about existence and usage of digital camera, web cam, media
  player, printer, scanner etc with Gentoo (need a list, maybe see the
  Linux Foundation survey)
(Work specific)
- How many other users of Gentoo does your organization have?
- Name of organization (coupled with the previous question to weed out
  dupes)

Release-related questions:
- Should CD media be released at a different rate than stage tarballs?
- Desired release frequency for minimal/livecd/GRP/stages (annual,
  bi-annual, quarterly, monthly, weekly?)
- Do you use the installer or install by hand? (need an other field here)
- How often do you use the media?
- How often do you install Gentoo (using the stage tarballs or the
  installer)?
- Do you use GRP? 
- Would you like to use GRP in future?
- Binhost questions maybe?
- Do you use the portage snapshot associated with the release or the
  latest available snapshot or other?
- Do you use a Gentoo derivative? (give a list with an other option)

Portage-related questions:
(portage team, maybe you can help here?)

Distro-related questions (these two are from the original survey, but i
added more choices):
- Why choose Gentoo
	- package manager
	- package repository
	- customization
	- optimization
	- community
	- free as in beer
	- free as in speech
	- other (fill-in)
- Distro needs (with a justification text area)
	- Installer progress
	- Enterprise-level systems (slow-moving tree)
	- Embedded linux systems
	- More/less packages
	- Hardware support

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Rémi Cardona]

Robin H. Johnson a écrit :
> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.

[snip]

Your survey summed up pretty well all the questions we came up with this 
morning. Thanks for putting it all in ink :)

Cheers,

Rémi
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Santiago M. Mola]

On Jan 14, 2008 1:33 PM, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.

An interesting question would be "Which package manager do you use?".

-- 
Santiago M. Mola
Jabber ID: cooldwind@gmail.com
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Richard Freeman]

Santiago M. Mola wrote:
> On Jan 14, 2008 1:33 PM, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
>> questions to put on a new user survey.
> 
> An interesting question would be "Which package manager do you use?".
> 

Along those lines I'd be curious as to what people are using to handle 
etc-update-like tasks.

Knowing what our users use tells us what we should or shouldn't bother 
supporting.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Robert Buchholz]

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On Monday, 14. January 2008, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.
>
> For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
> simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
> probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
> don't know' should be available in most questions.
>
> I don't have the original questions on hand right now (but i'm trying to
> get them), so used some classical census questions. Some of the ones I
> threw in are just what came to mind, I'd love to hear more questions and
> more sections.

Just some ideas:

Usage of Gentoo Services
 (could be differentiated between "read only" and "have an account")
 - Forums
 - Bugzilla
 - Planet Larry
 - Mailing Lists (more differentiated)

 (for read-only)
 - Planet Gentoo
 - Gentoo *ly Newsletter
 - Handbook
 - Other Docs
 - Security Announcements (GLSA)
   -- maybe: If so, how? (Forums, Website, RSS, Announce List, glsa-check)

 - External Gentoo-related sites:
  - Gentoo-Wiki.com
  - ...?

* Do you use overlays? (If so, which?)

Robert

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 04:33 -0800, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Release-related questions:
> - Should CD media be released at a different rate than stage tarballs?
> - Desired release frequency for minimal/livecd/GRP/stages (annual,
>   bi-annual, quarterly, monthly, weekly?)
> - Do you use the installer or install by hand? (need an other field here)

This question would be interesting, though a little moot.  With future
releases, we're making the Installer binary-only.  The reason is simple,
there are too many possible failure opportunities in the live tree or
when building from source.  The number of "installer bugs" that are
simply compilation bugs (many of which are already fixed in newer
versions/revisions in the tree) is overwhelming compared to the actual
number of bugs in the Installer.  By making it binary only, we only
allow the Installer to use known-good input for producing a user's
system.  All networked installs will be manual, and will follow the
Handbook.  I've thought of producing a simple "default source-based"
install script that allows someone to still use a source-based and
current installation, without having to type in a bunch of commands.  I
don't know how well this would be received, but it could be something
that you could ask here.

> - How often do you use the media?

Which media do you use? (minimal, universal, livecd, livedvd)

Which version do you use? (So many people tell me things like, "I still
use a $version CD, so I think it would be useful...)

> - How often do you install Gentoo (using the stage tarballs or the
>   installer)?
> - Do you use GRP? 
> - Would you like to use GRP in future?
> - Binhost questions maybe?
> - Do you use the portage snapshot associated with the release or the
>   latest available snapshot or other?
> - Do you use a Gentoo derivative? (give a list with an other option)

What features do you think are lacking on Gentoo install media? (free
form)

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Donnie Berkholz]

On 04:33 Mon 14 Jan     , Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.
> 
> For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
> simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
> probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
> don't know' should be available in most questions.

A lot of the suggested questions are hard facts. Some of them will 
indicate usage to suggest where we might focus, but they mostly won't 
indicate opinions. This means, for example, that people might say 
they're using Gentoo for a server but they won't be able to express how 
well it works.

I would like to see a lot more ratings and scales, for example:

How well does Gentoo as a whole meet your needs?
	Perfectly
	Extremely well
	Fairly well
	Not that well
	Poorly

Rate the following, on a 1-10 scale (or a perfect to poor scale)

	Gentoo's official documentation

	Unofficial documentation (forums, wiki, etc)
		Forums
		Wiki

	Are you able to find solutions for Gentoo-related issues on Google
	or other search engines?
		Always
		Usually
		Sometimes
		Rarely
		Never

Robert Buchholz said we should ask about services usage. I also think we 
should ask people to rate those services.


Other questions, that might address issues like our future goals as a 
distribution and will probably involve open-ended portions?

	What do you think of Gentoo's future?
		"It looks bright" to "I'm installing Ubuntu right now"
	What is Gentoo best at right now?
	What should Gentoo be best at?
	What is Gentoo worst at right now?
	What should Gentoo stop focusing on?
	What hurts Gentoo the most?


Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey; releng related

[Brent Baude]

If the topic of frequent releases is put onto the survey, I would like 
to know what users anticipate as part of the new releases because new 
releases are based on the tree itself.  It has been a while since I have 
used a binary distribution, but when I did, I looked forward to new 
releases because new versions of X and Y were generally tied to it; 
which is not usually the case with Gentoo except where profiles dictate 
that.  Is the motivation for more releases in part the expectation of 
more features?  If so, also collecting their suggestions for a features 
list would be helpful. 

Also helpful would be making sure the user input on releases reflected 
all archs he/she uses.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey; releng related

[Iain Buchanan]

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 16:30 -0600, Brent Baude wrote:
> If the topic of frequent releases is put onto the survey, I would like 
> to know what users anticipate as part of the new releases because new 
> releases are based on the tree itself.  It has been a while since I have 
> used a binary distribution, but when I did, I looked forward to new 
> releases because new versions of X and Y were generally tied to it; 
> which is not usually the case with Gentoo except where profiles dictate 
> that.  Is the motivation for more releases in part the expectation of 
> more features?  If so, also collecting their suggestions for a features 
> list would be helpful. 

There is a thread on gentoo-user currently.  It started out about the
GWN, but it's been hijacked to talk about the install CD.  If you want
to know what / why users want the install CD, then read some of the
comments from here on:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/192742

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

Bob Barker: "Which one of these lovely womanoids will take home atomic tiara?" 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[likewhoa]

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Here are some questions I would like answered.

Do you use gentoo at home or office?
> Home
> Office
> Both
> I don't use gentoo

What percentage of your business is running gentoo?
> 10%
> 25%
> 50%
> 75%
> 100%
> none of the above or 0%

How often would you like releases?
> every six months
> every 3 months
> once a year
> whenever

Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
provided?
> Kde
> Xfce
> Fluxbox
> E16
> Fvwm
> Gnome
> Other

How often do you emerge --sync?
> every day
> once a week
> once a month
> every six months
> none of the above

How often do you update your system & world packages?
> every day
> once a week
> once a month
> every six months
> none of the above

How often do you housekeeping on your system i.e revdep-rebuild,--deepcleanetc?
> every day
> once a week
> once a month
> every six months
> none of the above

Who would you recommend gentoo to?
> Friend
> Colleague
> Business partner
> Clients
> Everybody!
> Nobody

Do you consider yourself to be a?
> Advance Gentoo user.
> Novice
> Intermediate
> Noob
> Troll
> None of the above

What GPU are you using with Gentoo?
> ATI
> Nvidia
> Other

What aspect of gentoo would you like see improved?
> Multimedia
> Graphics
> Video
> Security
> Network & Services
 <http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO#Networks_.26_Services>> Gaming
> Emulators
> Kernel
> Developer Community
> Other

What platform do you run gentoo on?
> AMD64
> X86
> Sparc
> ARM
> Alpha
> Hppa
> Ia64
> Mips
> PPC

Do you dual-boot if so with what OS?
> Windows XP
> Windows 98
> Windows 2000
> Windows NT
> BSD
> Unix
> OSX
> Other

How did you come across gentoo?
> Friend told me
> Business collegue
> Distrowatch
> Forums
> Article
> Little blue bird told me
> Other

Do they use grp packages?
> Yes
> No
> What is grp?
> Sometimes
> Never

Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
> Gentoo livecd-2007.0
> Sabayon livecd
> Sysresccd
> Knoppix
> My own
> Other

Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
> Yes
> No
> Why not
> Never!
> in unofficial overlay
> Dunno

When did you start using gentoo?
> 2002
> 2003
> 2004
> 2005
> 2006
> 2007
> Yesterday
> Just Now

How often should GWN be updated?
> once a week
> everyday
> every month
> every six months
> what is GWN?

Should gentoo have it's own WIKI?
> Yes
> No
> Merge gentoo-wiki instead.

Which package manager are you currently testing?
> Paludis
> Pkgcore

Which package manager are you using instead of portage?
> Paludis
> Pkgcore
> I <3 Portage!!!

Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
> Yes
> No
> Never heard of it

How well in-touch do you think dev's are with users?
> Very Good
> Not so Good
> Not at all
> No connection
> None of the above

Well that's all the questions I can come up with and that others
recommended, they are not sorted in any particular way either. I hope this
helps and I would appreciate respectable feedback and criticism instead of
flames and bighead comments.

Thank you.
Fernando a.k.a likewhoa
9188B8D8

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Qian Qiao]

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likewhoa wrote:
> Here are some questions I would like answered.
> 
> Do you use gentoo at home or office?
>> Home
>> Office
>> Both
>> I don't use gentoo
> 
> What percentage of your business is running gentoo?
>> 10%
>> 25%
>> 50%
>> 75%
>> 100%
>> none of the above or 0%
> 
> How often would you like releases?
>> every six months
>> every 3 months
>> once a year
>> whenever
> 
> Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
> provided?
>> Kde
>> Xfce
>> Fluxbox
>> E16
>> Fvwm
>> Gnome
>> Other
> 
> How often do you emerge --sync?
>> every day
>> once a week
>> once a month
>> every six months
>> none of the above
> 
> How often do you update your system & world packages?
>> every day
>> once a week
>> once a month
>> every six months
>> none of the above
> 
> How often do you housekeeping on your system i.e revdep-rebuild,--
> deepclean etc?
>> every day
>> once a week
>> once a month
>> every six months
>> none of the above
> 
> Who would you recommend gentoo to?
>> Friend
>> Colleague
>> Business partner
>> Clients
>> Everybody!
>> Nobody
> 
> Do you consider yourself to be a?
>> Advance Gentoo user.
>> Novice
>> Intermediate
>> Noob
>> Troll
>> None of the above
> 
> What GPU are you using with Gentoo?
>> ATI
>> Nvidia
>> Other
> 
> What aspect of gentoo would you like see improved?
>> Multimedia
>> Graphics
>> Video
>> Security
>> Network & Services
> <http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO#Networks_.26_Services>
>> Gaming
>> Emulators
>> Kernel
>> Developer Community
>> Other
> 
> What platform do you run gentoo on?
>> AMD64
>> X86
>> Sparc
>> ARM
>> Alpha
>> Hppa
>> Ia64
>> Mips
>> PPC
> 
> Do you dual-boot if so with what OS?
>> Windows XP
>> Windows 98
>> Windows 2000
>> Windows NT
>> BSD
>> Unix
>> OSX
>> Other
> 
> How did you come across gentoo?
>> Friend told me
>> Business collegue
>> Distrowatch
>> Forums
>> Article
>> Little blue bird told me
>> Other
> 
> Do they use grp packages?
>> Yes
>> No
>> What is grp?
>> Sometimes
>> Never
> 
> Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
>> Gentoo livecd-2007.0
>> Sabayon livecd
>> Sysresccd
>> Knoppix
>> My own
>> Other
> 
> Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
>> Yes
>> No
>> Why not
>> Never!
>> in unofficial overlay
>> Dunno
> 
> When did you start using gentoo?
>> 2002
>> 2003
>> 2004
>> 2005
>> 2006
>> 2007
>> Yesterday
>> Just Now
> 
> How often should GWN be updated?
>> once a week
>> everyday
>> every month
>> every six months
>> what is GWN?
> 
> Should gentoo have it's own WIKI?
>> Yes
>> No
>> Merge gentoo-wiki instead.
> 
> Which package manager are you currently testing?
>> Paludis
>> Pkgcore
> 
> Which package manager are you using instead of portage?
>> Paludis
>> Pkgcore
>> I <3 Portage!!!
> 
> Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
>> Yes
>> No
>> Never heard of it
> 
> How well in-touch do you think dev's are with users?
>> Very Good
>> Not so Good
>> Not at all
>> No connection
>> None of the above
> 
> Well that's all the questions I can come up with and that others
> recommended, they are not sorted in any particular way either. I hope
> this helps and I would appreciate respectable feedback and criticism
> instead of flames and bighead comments.
> 
> Thank you.
> Fernando a.k.a likewhoa
> 9188B8D8

Here's another:

How often do you get asked not to post in HTML in mailing lists because
some people happenened to use clients that don't like HTML?
> Once a day
> Once every 3 days
> Once a week
> Once a month
> Once a year
> Fxxk others, I don't give a s**t, I post HTML because I can, I won't
give a rat's a** whether you can read it.
> What is html?

- -- Joe

- --
A computer scientist is someone who, when told "go to hell", considers
the "go to" harmful rather than the destination.

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Duncan]

likewhoa <weboperative@gmail.com> posted
dad717940801141453k6a2f903aj77f810d3533e513a@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:53:38 +0000:

> How often do you update your system & world packages?
>> every day
>> once a week
>> once a month
>> every six months
>> none of the above

Make these time based ones "once or more", so there's no holes between 
the ranges (altho they'll technically overlap).  Otherwise, those of us 
doing system upkeep 2-3 times a <period> will have a hard time trying to 
figure out what to mark. =8^)

(BTW, agree with the no HTML thing already mentioned...)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[likewhoa]

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yea I didn't mean to send HTML but i agree on the "once or more" suggestion
:)
thanks,

Fernando


On Jan 15, 2008 12:05 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> likewhoa <weboperative@gmail.com> posted
> dad717940801141453k6a2f903aj77f810d3533e513a@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
> below, on  Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:53:38 +0000:
>
> > How often do you update your system & world packages?
> >> every day
> >> once a week
> >> once a month
> >> every six months
> >> none of the above
>
> Make these time based ones "once or more", so there's no holes between
> the ranges (altho they'll technically overlap).  Otherwise, those of us
> doing system upkeep 2-3 times a <period> will have a hard time trying to
> figure out what to mark. =8^)
>
> (BTW, agree with the no HTML thing already mentioned...)
>
> --
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +0000, likewhoa wrote:
> Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
> provided?
> > Kde 
> > Xfce 
> > Fluxbox
> > E16
> > Fvwm 
> > Gnome
> > Other

Can I suggest that we not ask anything that we likely won't change?  I
have a strong feeling that KDE would win out here, but there's *NO WAY*
that we can fit KDE on a LiveCD with the other stuff.  When we were
planning 2007.1, we had decided to switch to Xfce, simply because of the
space savings.  Cramming a lot of useful stuff onto 700MB is *not* an
easy task.  Space is our biggest enemy here.  Were we to drop the LiveCD
fully in favor of the LiveDVD, then I could see this as (somewhat)
valid, as all of those Window Managers/Desktop Environments are already
shipped on the LiveDVD (except FVWM).  I'm not too interested in
people's opinions for the defaults on a media set that includes them all
and each is only a click or two away, though, as it doesn't really add
anything to what we provide.  If it weren't for the size constraints,
I'd love to know what people prefer on the CD, so I don't want anyone to
think that we don't care.  We do.  We just are limited by a hard size
limit than we cannot do anything about and have to act accordingly.

> Do they use grp packages?
> > Yes
> > No
> > What is grp?
> > Sometimes
> > Never

Definitely word this in a manner so people know what you're referring
to.  I would say something more along the lines of "Do you use the
Installer in Networkless mode or GRP packages when installing your
system?"

> Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
> > Gentoo livecd-2007.0
> > Sabayon livecd
> > Sysresccd
> > Knoppix
> > My own
> > Other

Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
media people are using.  I would also add something like "an older
Gentoo CD" to the mix.

> Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
> > Yes
> > No
> > Why not
> > Never!
> > in unofficial overlay
> > Dunno

Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
this as one of those "religious" issues that is best left alone, like
emacs versus vi.

> How often should GWN be updated?
> > once a week
> > everyday
> > every month
> > every six months
> > what is GWN?

Again, you're asking something that I don't think that we should be
asking.  We couldn't get content even though we begged and pleaded for
it.  No offense meant to anyone, but I don't care if people want a daily
newsletter.  If we cannot get enough content, we cannot get enough
content.  No survey is going to change that, and asking a question like
this gives the impression that the user's opinion will make a
difference, when it likely will not.  I'd much rather not ask questions
that the users are going to feel like they were "ignored" than ask them
and not make any changes based on the answers.  Of course, if you're
volunteering to pick up the slack and write any necessary articles to
make it happen at the interval decided by our users, well, I completely
welcome it, then... ;]

> Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
> > Yes
> > No
> > Never heard of it

I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
fun to ask.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[likewhoa]

On Jan 15, 2008 12:16 AM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +0000, likewhoa wrote:
> > Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
> > provided?
> > > Kde
> > > Xfce
> > > Fluxbox
> > > E16
> > > Fvwm
> > > Gnome
> > > Other
>
> Can I suggest that we not ask anything that we likely won't change?  I
> have a strong feeling that KDE would win out here, but there's *NO WAY*
> that we can fit KDE on a LiveCD with the other stuff.  When we were
> planning 2007.1, we had decided to switch to Xfce, simply because of the
> space savings.  Cramming a lot of useful stuff onto 700MB is *not* an
> easy task.  Space is our biggest enemy here.  Were we to drop the LiveCD
> fully in favor of the LiveDVD, then I could see this as (somewhat)
> valid, as all of those Window Managers/Desktop Environments are already
> shipped on the LiveDVD (except FVWM).  I'm not too interested in
> people's opinions for the defaults on a media set that includes them all
> and each is only a click or two away, though, as it doesn't really add
> anything to what we provide.  If it weren't for the size constraints,
> I'd love to know what people prefer on the CD, so I don't want anyone to
> think that we don't care.  We do.  We just are limited by a hard size
> limit than we cannot do anything about and have to act accordingly.

I totally agree with you on that and when I asked that question I only
wanted to see what people prefer and I don't expect users to demand a
change based on the survey question responce. I for one love to have
the livecd run on a WM vs a DE, but again I start the livecd with
'gentoo nox' most times. Maybe the livecd should run a WM and the
liveDVD can run the rest this would free up the livecd and give it
more room for other packages that are missing on the livecd, these
packages could be stuff like wifi tools,system rescue tools, benchmark
etc.

>
>
>
> > Do they use grp packages?
> > > Yes
> > > No
> > > What is grp?
> > > Sometimes
> > > Never
>
> Definitely word this in a manner so people know what you're referring
> to.  I would say something more along the lines of "Do you use the
> Installer in Networkless mode or GRP packages when installing your
> system?"

Good way to put it, I was gonna add "GRP - Gentoo Release Packages" myself.

>
>
>
> > Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
> > > Gentoo livecd-2007.0
> > > Sabayon livecd
> > > Sysresccd
> > > Knoppix
> > > My own
> > > Other
>
> Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
> LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
> the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
> it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
> media people are using.  I would also add something like "an older
> Gentoo CD" to the mix.
>
>
>
> > Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
> > > Yes
> > > No
> > > Why not
> > > Never!
> > > in unofficial overlay
> > > Dunno
>
> Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
> about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
> are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
> originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
> this as one of those "religious" issues that is best left alone, like
> emacs versus vi.

Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
if it's decided not to included in the user survey.

>
>
>
> > How often should GWN be updated?
> > > once a week
> > > everyday
> > > every month
> > > every six months
> > > what is GWN?
>
> Again, you're asking something that I don't think that we should be
> asking.  We couldn't get content even though we begged and pleaded for
> it.  No offense meant to anyone, but I don't care if people want a daily
> newsletter.  If we cannot get enough content, we cannot get enough
> content.  No survey is going to change that, and asking a question like
> this gives the impression that the user's opinion will make a
> difference, when it likely will not.  I'd much rather not ask questions
> that the users are going to feel like they were "ignored" than ask them
> and not make any changes based on the answers.  Of course, if you're
> volunteering to pick up the slack and write any necessary articles to
> make it happen at the interval decided by our users, well, I completely
> welcome it, then... ;]
>
>
> > Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
> > > Yes
> > > No
> > > Never heard of it
>
> I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
> everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
> or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
> opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
> think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
> fun to ask.

I for one never used it so I can't really love or hate it but from
what people who have used it tells me to stay away from it because
I'll eventually hate it.
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
> Games Developer
>

Thanks for the great feedback Chris Gianelloni
Fernando
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 00:34 +0000, likewhoa wrote:
> > > Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
> > > > Yes
> > > > No
> > > > Why not
> > > > Never!
> > > > in unofficial overlay
> > > > Dunno
> >
> > Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
> > about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
> > are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
> > originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
> > this as one of those "religious" issues that is best left alone, like
> > emacs versus vi.
> 
> Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
> that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
> if it's decided not to included in the user survey.

I look at it very differently.  One of the main advantages to Gentoo is
being source-based.  This allows us to ship "packages" in our repository
for binary and commercial packages that would otherwise be impossible in
a binary distribution.  Remember, we don't actually ship the commercial
software.  We ship a bash script (essentially) that tells how to install
the software.  As much as I like to appeal to zealots (hahaha, right), I
don't consider shipping a bash script telling how to install a product
to be *anything* like shipping said product, endorsing it, or anything
else license zealots will try to spout to justify the removal of GPL-2
code from our repository.

Many people don't consider overlays, even Gentoo-run ones, to be of
sufficient quality/support/whatever to be used on production systems.
These are the same systems and people that would most likely utilize
these commercial ebuilds.

Basically, it is removing the *option* to install these packages from
the people who would like to use them for the sake of the people who
*REFUSE* to use the packages and insist on their removal from the tree
simply because they don't like the license under which is was released.
I'm sorry, but if that's not against the idea of a free and open
community, I don't know what is.

You have the right to chose what licenses you wish to support and use
software which agrees with your ideals, but that doesn't give you the
right to *DENY* others to do the same.

Sorry, I just don't see it as a valid question, at all.

> > > Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
> > > > Yes
> > > > No
> > > > Never heard of it
> >
> > I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
> > everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
> > or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
> > opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
> > think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
> > fun to ask.
> 
> I for one never used it so I can't really love or hate it but from
> what people who have used it tells me to stay away from it because
> I'll eventually hate it.

Well, anybody who dislikes it because of bugs or a bad experience, I can
completely understand.  I was really speaking mostly of the people who
dislike the *idea* of an Installer for Gentoo, and then go and bash it
as much as they can without providing any real evidence or reasons,
except for the old faithful "it's against the spirit of Gentoo" reason,
which is a complete fallacy.  Again, Gentoo is about empowering the
users to make their own decisions.  No, I won't say Gentoo is about
choice, because that is *STUPID* in that it gives people an excuse to
argue about even the biggest piece of junk being added to our tree or
supported, as if we have to, to give them the "choice".  Instead, I
prefer the concept of empowering the user to make their own choices,
where they can choose to add anything that they want in their personal
overlay, as we have given them the tools to do so.  Now, if a user wants
to use an Installer and someone wants to write the code, who are you (or
I) to say that they are in the wrong?  After all, isn't it that idea of
empowering the user *really* the spirit of Gentoo?

I think so.

> Thanks for the great feedback Chris Gianelloni

You're totally welcome.  Take what I've said here as my own opinion, of
course.

> Fernando
-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Galevsky]

On Jan 15, 2008 4:05 AM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I was really speaking mostly of the people who
> dislike the *idea* of an Installer for Gentoo, and then go and bash it
> as much as they can without providing any real evidence or reasons,
> except for the old faithful "it's against the spirit of Gentoo" reason,
> which is a complete fallacy.  Again, Gentoo is about empowering the
> users to make their own decisions.  No, I won't say Gentoo is about
> choice, because that is *STUPID* in that it gives people an excuse to
> argue about even the biggest piece of junk being added to our tree or
> supported, as if we have to, to give them the "choice".  Instead, I
> prefer the concept of empowering the user to make their own choices,
> where they can choose to add anything that they want in their personal
> overlay, as we have given them the tools to do so.  Now, if a user wants
> to use an Installer and someone wants to write the code, who are you (or
> I) to say that they are in the wrong?  After all, isn't it that idea of
> empowering the user *really* the spirit of Gentoo?
>
> I think so.


I am very pleased to hear from someone who knows the basis of any
opened community rules :)
To deal with the top-priority issues and drive Gentoo to the right
direction, there is the council in charge of helping devs to go where
it needs. But restraining users -or devs- projects is not the right
way.

Gal'
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 14 January 2008, likewhoa wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2008 12:16 AM, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +0000, likewhoa wrote:
> > > Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
> > >
> > > > Gentoo livecd-2007.0
> > > > Sabayon livecd
> > > > Sysresccd
> > > > Knoppix
> > > > My own
> > > > Other
> >
> > Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
> > LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
> > the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
> > it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
> > media people are using.  I would also add something like "an older
> > Gentoo CD" to the mix.
> >
> > > Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
> > >
> > > > Yes
> > > > No
> > > > Why not
> > > > Never!
> > > > in unofficial overlay
> > > > Dunno
> >
> > Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
> > about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
> > are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
> > originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
> > this as one of those "religious" issues that is best left alone, like
> > emacs versus vi.
>
> Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
> that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
> if it's decided not to included in the user survey.

i dont see any basis for "keeping the tree clean" other than personal 
opinions.  if you dont want "these types of packages", then dont emerge them.  
there are people who want them, there are people who need them, there are 
people who hate them, whatever.  the package manager is the tool for the end 
user to decide what to do with their system.  anything else is not the way to 
go.  to borrow a few flavor words from Chris, here in Gentoo land we empower 
the users, we do not force some arbitrary religious thinking on them.  we are 
not the FSF.  if a user does not agree with this, then they're certainly free 
to choose another distribution, and we'll wish them the best of luck (the FSF 
does have a list of "recommended" distributions -- Gentoo of course does not 
appear on that list because our mind set does not match theirs).
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 14 January 2008, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.

*cough* -project *cough*
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Marius Mauch]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:33:48 -0800
"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
> questions to put on a new user survey.
> 
> For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
> simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
> probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
> don't know' should be available in most questions.
> 
> I don't have the original questions on hand right now (but i'm trying to
> get them), so used some classical census questions. Some of the ones I
> threw in are just what came to mind, I'd love to hear more questions and
> more sections.
> 
> In the style of census, maybe offering a short form and a long form
> questionnaire would be useful too?
> 
> Basic demographics - a bunch of this should probably be optional but recommended
> - Gender (M, F, and the various other forms here)
> - Year of birth
> - # of children??
> - How many years have you been using computers?
> 
> Sociocultural information (again, optional stuff):
> - Location (country, and free-form city)
> - Level of education?
> - Job? (type coding this one is hard, and I'd prefer not to have it)
> - Income level

Such questions usually are a reason to not complete a survey for me, and I don't see how they are relevant to us (except for maybe location).

> - Do you share your portage tree between systems
> - Do you share your distfiles between systems
> - Do you share your binpkgs between systems

Those should all be multiple choice or at least be more explicit due to multiple meanings of "share" (and in case of binpkgs a "I don't use binpkgs" option should be present as well in some way)

> Portage-related questions:
> (portage team, maybe you can help here?)

(just brainstorming here)
- what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
(parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync support, gpg verification support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better query tools, interactive user interface)
- do you think that portage has improved significantly over the last 12 months?
- how happy are you with portage in general (scale 1-10)?
- how happy are you with portage documentation (manpages, official online docs, ...)?
- do you use pkgcore/paludis in addition/in place of portage on Gentoo (yes/no/don't know what pkgcore/paludis is)?
- would you be in favor of an automated feedback system to report successful/failed package installations for statistical purposes (yes/opt-out/opt-in/no)?
- how important is backward compability in the user interface for you (e.g. names of commandline options, output format)?

Mind that the survey shouldn't contain too many questions, or many people won't complete it IMHO. I guess 10-30 questions might be the sweet spot, if we have much more we should run multiple surveys for specific topics spread over time. Also can we take measures that such general surveys are repeated at regular intervals (once per year/6 months), as a single survey is a nice snapshot, but the really interesting thing are the trends evolving over time.

Marius
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis]

2008-01-15 15:05 Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> - what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
> (parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync support, gpg verification
> support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better query tools, interactive user interface)

Other features: USE flag dependencies, repository dependencies.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

[Marius Mauch]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:09:20 +0100
"Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis" <arfrever.fta@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2008-01-15 15:05 Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> > - what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
> > (parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync support, gpg verification
> > support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better query tools, interactive user interface)
> 
> Other features: USE flag dependencies, repository dependencies.

I've not listed those (and a few others where we know that they are
critical) on purpose.

Marius
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Ryan Hill]

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Marius Mauch wrote:
> "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Basic demographics - a bunch of this should probably be optional but recommended
>> - Gender (M, F, and the various other forms here)
>> - Year of birth
>> - # of children??
>> - How many years have you been using computers?
>>
>> Sociocultural information (again, optional stuff):
>> - Location (country, and free-form city)
>> - Level of education?
>> - Job? (type coding this one is hard, and I'd prefer not to have it)
>> - Income level
> 
> Such questions usually are a reason to not complete a survey for me, and I don't see how they are relevant to us (except for maybe location).

I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children are a
bit too private.


-- 
fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
wxwindows @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Steve Long]

Ryan Hill wrote:
> I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
> are a bit too private.
> 
++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as relevant
as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a 35 year old
doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all technical. # of kids
isn't relevant.

Maybe it's not something you want to ask the users, but it would be more
interesting wrt devs, as would statistics on standard Equal Ops monitoring
(a legal requirement on employers in the UK, even if the person declines to
answer, which is ofc their right.)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
> Ryan Hill wrote:
> > I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
> > are a bit too private.
> > 
> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as relevant
> as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a 35 year old
> doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all technical. # of kids
> isn't relevant.
I put # of kids in there as a lark, perhaps it might be better as 'do
you have children', with an eye to seeing how it affects their package
choices - see games and education packages for kids, plus the previous
USE=offensive debate on the desktop backgrounds with scantily-clad
woman.

> Maybe it's not something you want to ask the users, but it would be more
> interesting wrt devs, as would statistics on standard Equal Ops monitoring
> (a legal requirement on employers in the UK, even if the person declines to
> answer, which is ofc their right.)
Go some good links on that? They might have good question wording we can
borrow?

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Joe Peterson]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
> Ryan Hill wrote:
>> I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
>> are a bit too private.
>>
> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as relevant
> as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a 35 year old
> doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all technical. # of kids
> isn't relevant.

Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have
(or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable.  I know
people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say
most are, but one does not guarantee the other).  And I'd argue that
someone with children does not necessarily have "a lot to show" someone
without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing.

There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose
consciously not to have children.  It is becoming more and more a
*choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part
of life.  It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be
careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity.

						-Joe
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Steve Long]

Joe Peterson wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
>> Ryan Hill wrote:
>>> I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
>>> are a bit too private.
>>>
>> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as
>> relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a
>> 35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all
>> technical. # of kids isn't relevant.
> 
> Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have
> (or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable.  I know
> people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say
> most are, but one does not guarantee the other).  And I'd argue that
> someone with children does not necessarily have "a lot to show" someone
> without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing.
> 
> There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose
> consciously not to have children.  It is becoming more and more a
> *choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part
> of life.  It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be
> careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity.
> 
My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing
not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more
mature than simply drifting into parenthood.

I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo
besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has
a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at
37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal,
as did the earlier process of committing to marriage.

Which is not to denigrate people who chose not to marry; my godchildren's
parents were dead-set about their commitment to each other without a piece
of paper. I guess it's the change between being an individual and feeling a
commitment to someone else. And yeah maybe it's not something we need to
ask anyone, but it is good to consider that there are diverse perspectives
within the group.

In the same vein I asked on project wrt to number of female devs and was
told there are perhaps 3 or 4 iirc.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[George Prowse]

Steve Long wrote:
> Joe Peterson wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
>>> Ryan Hill wrote:
>>>> I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
>>>> are a bit too private.
>>>>
>>> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as
>>> relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a
>>> 35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all
>>> technical. # of kids isn't relevant.
>> Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have
>> (or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable.  I know
>> people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say
>> most are, but one does not guarantee the other).  And I'd argue that
>> someone with children does not necessarily have "a lot to show" someone
>> without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing.
>>
>> There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose
>> consciously not to have children.  It is becoming more and more a
>> *choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part
>> of life.  It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be
>> careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity.
>>
> My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing
> not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more
> mature than simply drifting into parenthood.
> 
> I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo
> besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has
> a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at
> 37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal,
> as did the earlier process of committing to marriage.
> 
> Which is not to denigrate people who chose not to marry; my godchildren's
> parents were dead-set about their commitment to each other without a piece
> of paper. I guess it's the change between being an individual and feeling a
> commitment to someone else. And yeah maybe it's not something we need to
> ask anyone, but it is good to consider that there are diverse perspectives
> within the group.
> 
> In the same vein I asked on project wrt to number of female devs and was
> told there are perhaps 3 or 4 iirc.
> 
> 
For a survey of this kind I think questions about children etc are as 
inappropriate as ones about sexual orientation.

Personally i'd stick to the fundamentals.

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[likewhoa]

I totally agree with not asking such personal questions which really
are not going to help the foundation, what we need to ask are
questions that relate to the distribution, it's developers & user
community as a whole. one question regarding children that I see as
being appropriate is:

Do children in your household use Gentoo?
> Yes
> No
> It's to complicated for them
> Prefer not to answer

Which games-* category need more additions?
> games-puzzles
> games-kids
> games-board
> games-fps
> games-strategy

Other questions regarding personal things, like age,spouses & income
are really for another type of survey, maybe a separate survey that
only developers will fill out, users will feel like you're asking to
much if asked those questions. We need to get questions that can help
identify what will improve Gentoo and it's inner structure.

Thanks,
Fernando a.k.a likewhoa

On Jan 18, 2008 7:41 AM, George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Steve Long wrote:
> > Joe Peterson wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
> >>> Ryan Hill wrote:
> >>>> I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
> >>>> are a bit too private.
> >>>>
> >>> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as
> >>> relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a
> >>> 35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all
> >>> technical. # of kids isn't relevant.
> >> Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have
> >> (or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable.  I know
> >> people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say
> >> most are, but one does not guarantee the other).  And I'd argue that
> >> someone with children does not necessarily have "a lot to show" someone
> >> without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing.
> >>
> >> There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose
> >> consciously not to have children.  It is becoming more and more a
> >> *choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part
> >> of life.  It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be
> >> careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity.
> >>
> > My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing
> > not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more
> > mature than simply drifting into parenthood.
> >
> > I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo
> > besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has
> > a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at
> > 37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal,
> > as did the earlier process of committing to marriage.
> >
> > Which is not to denigrate people who chose not to marry; my godchildren's
> > parents were dead-set about their commitment to each other without a piece
> > of paper. I guess it's the change between being an individual and feeling a
> > commitment to someone else. And yeah maybe it's not something we need to
> > ask anyone, but it is good to consider that there are diverse perspectives
> > within the group.
> >
> > In the same vein I asked on project wrt to number of female devs and was
> > told there are perhaps 3 or 4 iirc.
> >
> >
> For a survey of this kind I think questions about children etc are as
> inappropriate as ones about sexual orientation.
>
> Personally i'd stick to the fundamentals.
>
> George
>
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>
>
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Duncan]

likewhoa <weboperative@gmail.com> posted
dad717940801180820t24149f60h775ab0ff2ef24921@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:20:08 -0500:

> one question regarding children that I see as being appropriate is:
> 
> Do children in your household use Gentoo?
>> Yes
>> No
>> It's to complicated for them
>> Prefer not to answer

s/children/others/, thus including spouses, kids, parents, housemates, 
etc.  That's not so personal and more useful an answer IMO.

But more useful without getting quite so personal in relationship 
implication:

How many others in your household use Gentoo?
> 0
> 1-2
> 3+
> Prefer not to answer

What ages are they (mark all that apply)?
> 0-10
> 11-18
> 19-30
> 30-50
> 51+
> None or prefer not to answer

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[likewhoa]

Your suggestions are ideal and don't get to personal, thanks for the
feedback and corrections.


On Jan 18, 2008 8:54 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> likewhoa <weboperative@gmail.com> posted
> dad717940801180820t24149f60h775ab0ff2ef24921@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
> below, on  Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:20:08 -0500:
>
> > one question regarding children that I see as being appropriate is:
> >
> > Do children in your household use Gentoo?
> >> Yes
> >> No
> >> It's to complicated for them
> >> Prefer not to answer
>
> s/children/others/, thus including spouses, kids, parents, housemates,
> etc.  That's not so personal and more useful an answer IMO.
>
> But more useful without getting quite so personal in relationship
> implication:
>
> How many others in your household use Gentoo?
> > 0
> > 1-2
> > 3+
> > Prefer not to answer
>
> What ages are they (mark all that apply)?
> > 0-10
> > 11-18
> > 19-30
> > 30-50
> > 51+
> > None or prefer not to answer
>
> --
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
>
> --
>
> gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Joe Peterson]

Steve Long wrote:
> My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing
> not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more
> mature than simply drifting into parenthood.

No offense taken, and I agree about the "drifting into" thing.  My
wife's brother asked why we are not having kids, and she asked him, in
turn, why he had kids.  His answer was simply, "Because it's what you
do."  I would have rather he said, "Because I want to be a parent."

> I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo
> besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has
> a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at
> 37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal,
> as did the earlier process of committing to marriage.

Yep, and I'm one of the "older" devs here too (in fact, I've got you
beat at 43!).  Good to have a mix of ages, interests, and types of
people, I think.  And ashame we don't have more women.

					-Joe
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

[Steve Long]

Robin H. Johnson wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +0000, Steve Long wrote:
>> Ryan Hill wrote:
>> > I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and
>> > children are a bit too private.
>> > 
>> ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as
>> relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a
>> 35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all
>> technical. # of kids isn't relevant.
> I put # of kids in there as a lark, perhaps it might be better as 'do
> you have children', with an eye to seeing how it affects their package
> choices - see games and education packages for kids, plus the previous
> USE=offensive debate on the desktop backgrounds with scantily-clad
> woman.
>
Heh yeah, we often get people using inappropriate language in #gentoo-chat
and have to explain that, well some of us have children who can see the
screen. I highly recommend gcompris for anyone with younger kids btw.
 
>> Maybe it's not something you want to ask the users, but it would be more
>> interesting wrt devs, as would statistics on standard Equal Ops
>> monitoring (a legal requirement on employers in the UK, even if the
>> person declines to answer, which is ofc their right.)
> Go some good links on that? They might have good question wording we can
> borrow?
> 
Can I firstly apologise as I appear to have misunderstood (I am not a
lawyer, I'm a coder.) The requirement is on public authorities and, I
think, publically funded organisations. I worked at a Students' Union (as
full-time staff) in the early 90s, and it was impressed upon me (when I sat
on an interview panel) that we had a legal obligation to actively *promote*
Equal Opportunities.

The main organisation in the UK for this now is the new Equality and Human
Rights Commission at http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/

Bradford University's Equality Unit have an excellent site at
http://www.brad.ac.uk/equality/
with policies and summary of relevant legislation at
http://www.brad.ac.uk/admin/equalopp/policies/
The Higher Education Funding Council for England's Equality and diversity
unit has a good site at: http://www.hefce.ac.uk/lgm/divers/

Employers have a duty under the legislation discussed above not to
discriminate. All of this comes under the umbrella term "Equal
Opportunities", best-practise for which comes from the public-sector. It is
harder for larger organisations to defend a discrimination case if they do
not monitor aiui:
"The purpose of monitoring is to enable you to examine how your policy and
action plan are working. If your policy is fully effective and has been in
operation for some time your workforce should be broadly representative of
the population of the geographical area from which it is drawn or
demonstrably moving in that direction. Monitoring enables you to assess
this."
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=828
which is a good link to see what employers are advised to do.

Certainly the term "An Equal Opportunities Employer" has been in use for
years, and implies that there are policies and monitoring in place, as well
as a commitment to the promotion of EOPS.

HTH.


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