From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IBcqz-0000aK-4U for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:44:05 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6JKgLR1026160; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:42:21 GMT Received: from siemen.orkz.net (atwork-180.r-212.178.119.atwork.nl [212.178.119.180]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6JKdK3w021838 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:39:20 GMT Received: (qmail 29262 invoked by uid 98); 19 Jul 2007 20:38:56 -0000 Received: from 192.168.1.220 by siemen.orkz.net (envelope-from , uid 89) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.88.4/1763. spamassassin: 3.1.4. Clear:RC:1(192.168.1.220):. Processed in 0.023099 secs); 19 Jul 2007 20:38:56 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: jer@gentoo.org via siemen.orkz.net X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.25 (Clear:RC:1(192.168.1.220):. Processed in 0.023099 secs) Received: from unknown (HELO epia.jer-c2.orkz.net) (192.168.1.220) by siemen.orkz.net with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 19 Jul 2007 20:38:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:39:32 +0200 From: Jeroen Roovers To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols) Message-ID: <20070719223932.5158f0b5@epia.jer-c2.orkz.net> In-Reply-To: References: <469F1C56.6070600@gentoo.org> <469F372A.9060107@gentoo.org> <469F3A9F.7030004@gentoo.org> <46A0DE7B.6030009@gentoo.org> <469F9271.9080908@gentoo.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.10.0 (GTK+ 2.10.11; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 6b16b6c7-2d2d-4205-9fc3-3d4c316d3bf7 X-Archives-Hash: 9389ea421a4ddee6b0429e202da295f9 On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:36:34 +0100 Steve Long wrote: > Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: > > Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such > > Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't > > need to go and annoy upstream. In #gentoo we *regularly* send users upstream. We tend *not* to refer them to #upstream when it's a matter of installation, which would always be Gentoo's turf and therefore our responsibility. We only suggest users seek help upstream when they are grappling with runtime configuration issues or issues that are too complex to handle in a busy channel. > > Associate an irc-channel with each package. Associate how? Sounds like a lot of work at the least and a lot of cruft at the worst. > > Most packages have a herd associated with them which can > > belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the > > relevant developers could be found and which can put common > > problems in its topic. That is the way things are now. Formalising this seems redundant. > > Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be > > #gentoo. #gentoo is and always has been the fallback. :) > > Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to > > know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or > > #$upstream. No problem. Just come and help out in #gentoo. Lots of users giving lots of other users helpful suggestions as to how and where they can get their problems solved. We don't need metastructures, just people talking to each other. > I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each > herd/ package. At least from the IRC side, it just doesn't work that way. You can open channels all you like and find that nobody ever goes there, and instead everybody turns up in the same channel. :) What most people do is drop a question in #gentoo. If an issue might take too much time to resolve in #gentoo, we suggest other channels to ask in, mainly those mentioned in [1]. > Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is busier > than #gentoo-kde. You could have asked in #gentoo. :) > The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions > about changing ebuilds, imo. The current fallback is #gentoo and I cannot see how you could ever change that. You cannot force people to (not) use certain channels and you cannot force them to use/follow whatever link it is you are putting in place. The solution to the problem of upstream only wanting to talk about compile time configuration issues with people who know sufficiently well what they are doing, i.e. developers, is not a technical one, but a social one. If you want to help solve this problem, just talk to people, help out in #gentoo, and educate both users and upstream about the way Gentoo (Linux) and Portage work, and more generally, how to find the information you need without pissing everybody off. :) Kind regards, JeR [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list