From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IBde5-0005Hl-JQ for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:34:50 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6JLXqkf029129; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:33:52 GMT Received: from smtp.ferdyx.org (170.Red-213-96-222.staticIP.rima-tde.net [213.96.222.170]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6JLVu8h026840 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:31:56 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.ferdyx.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D467D8D34B for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:26:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.ferdyx.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tungsteno [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20770-07 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:25:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from snowflake (82-41-57-20.cable.ubr08.edin.blueyonder.co.uk [82.41.57.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.ferdyx.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893878D305 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:25:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:31:39 +0100 From: Ciaran McCreesh To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols) Message-ID: <20070719223139.540d6697@snowflake> In-Reply-To: <469FD60B.7030206@gmail.com> References: <469F1C56.6070600@gentoo.org> <469F372A.9060107@gentoo.org> <469F3A9F.7030004@gentoo.org> <46A0DE7B.6030009@gentoo.org> <469F9271.9080908@gentoo.org> <469FC366.8020304@gmail.com> <20070719212506.09a52e94@snowflake> <469FCD7A.1090506@bellsouth.net> <20070719215933.014b21cd@snowflake> <469FD60B.7030206@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2 (GTK+ 2.10.11; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_TNqqSbks9mWb75Z=vEHB1pa"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ferdyx.org X-Archives-Salt: 09075ee3-c401-429b-b348-14ea6d904c42 X-Archives-Hash: a12d5cd920fc1d10663cb21b25e1f5a2 --Sig_TNqqSbks9mWb75Z=vEHB1pa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100 George Prowse wrote: > > Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not > > see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question > > and take time to respond are highly atypical. >=20 > If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers > you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo > has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their system breaks and they try to find out why. > >> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums > >=20 > > That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you > > what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, > > not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo > > has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. > > Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who > > respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have > > time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. >=20 > Ahhhhh, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users > is the reason why it shouldn't be done No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design decisions is why it shouldn't be done. > >> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to > >> go in. > >=20 > > I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, > > guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any > > package from source using my configuration of choice in under > > fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo > > deliver that? >=20 > Irrelevant conclusion Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of impossible goals. > >> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but > >> most of the gripers don't vote. > >=20 > > Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it > > would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with > > the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of > > the majority". > > It would make a difference in the relations between users and > developers. Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told "sorry, we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for". > Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all. --=20 Ciaran McCreesh --Sig_TNqqSbks9mWb75Z=vEHB1pa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGn9g796zL6DUtXhERAq1SAJ9HnypClmpCu+GilfXllmfrvvQ5jQCgyGAu eMplMiJ5k3RWafKz6kyDMzo= =EEQa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_TNqqSbks9mWb75Z=vEHB1pa-- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list