Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

[Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org>]

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On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:13:53 -0400
Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org> wrote:

So I should cut it, but I'm leaving it so you see what I'm responding
to.
Seemant, thanks.

> On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 10:33 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> > *sigh*
> 
> It seems impossible to have any sort of discussion with you (unless one
> is in agreement with you, of course, and then one is "clear headed")
> without eliciting a *sigh* -- I don't think it's particularly the
> healthiest way to have one.  If you simply don't like disagreement, then
> please be clear about that.
> 
> > Why is it that everyone always assumes everything the Council does is
> > "out to get Ciaran" rather than something we see as a good global
> > solution to our current problems?
> 
> Well, it would be great if the council can clearly outline what exactly
> our current problems are.  Maybe if you presented those problems and
> then presented the proposed solutions to them, things would be easier to
> understand?
> 
> 
> > Here's a little hint for all of you conspiracy theorists out there.
> > 
> > If all we wanted was to get rid of Ciaran, we'd just have a fucking vote
> > to get rid of Ciaran and make all of this *SO* much simpler on
> > ourselves.
> 
> This is again a disparaging and unhealthy way to have a discussion.  I'm
> going to request that if you will respond to my notes, please do so with
> some modicum of civility and respect.  If you find yourself unable to do
> so, then please do not respond to me at all.
> 
> > We're trying to solve the problem of people, *ALL* people, treating each
> > other like complete crap on our lists.  The "problem" has been an issue
> > of discipline.  We've simply got too many people who are too scared to
> > take any actions to resolve these problems.  Why do you think Developer
> > Relations has all of these procedures and policies for retiring
> > developers?  Is it because we need all of that to determine if someone
> > has crossed the line?  No.  It's because we have a large number of
> > developers (or possibly even just a very vocal minority) who complain
> > about every single damn thing anyone ever does and it has been much
> > simpler to make up these ridiculous guidelines and rules to follow in an
> > attempt to curb the dissenters than it is to just deal with them.
> 
> Well, your own method of responding to my note is a good example of
> treating others like crap.  How do we solve that?  The problem with
> moderation is that nobody censors speech with which they agree, but
> quick to censor that with which they don't.
> 
> So, here we have an example of one of the possible problems that you
> alluded to earlier: a vocal minority unable to pick its battles, and
> which engages in endless nitpicking.  Why not just have the "fucking
> vote to get rid of [them] and make all of this *SO* much simpler on
> ourselves" then? Why should the vast majority of people on this list
> have to pay for what is, evidently, a minority?
> 
> If, on the other hand, it's not a minority, then doesn't that indicate
> that the issue is on a deeper level?  And if so, wouldn't it be more
> prudent to try and solve that one, instead?
> 
> 
> > I say drop the rules to something simple that makes sense, boot the
> > troublemakers, and ignore the dissenters.  I'll gladly help anyone make
> > up any procmail recipes they need to filter their mail.  Let's get back
> > to developing and leave the politics to Obama and Hillary.
> 
> This is a little worrisome, you know.  Perhaps you didn't mean this set
> of statements to sound as all-encompassing as all that.  Isn't dissent
> and disagreement the result of differing points of view, which could
> actually benefit Gentoo?
> 
> My thought is this: everyone should try and evaluate their own behaviour
> on this list, and the method in which they treat others.  If each of us
> actually thought about the effects of our attitudes, this discussion
> might well be moot.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Seemant
> 
> 
> 

Regards,
- -- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel)
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