[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".

So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of
his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I
fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more
important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately
those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of
course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as
suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal.

I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've
been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position
of QA lead and eroyf  joined them. This can be documented on way too
many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a
good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for
the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm
pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be
concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years,
we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right.

Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
"discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender
in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way
we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could
endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that.

Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
your limbo),

For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry,
no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772
[2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519
[3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm
[4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790
[5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852

--

Jakub Moc
Email: jakub.moc@gmail.com
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Luca Barbato]

Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the
form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2
weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue.

> I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> could ever possibly be to this project.

Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler
and saner way...

Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those
2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair
this treatment had been.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 07:43 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the
> form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2
> weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue.
> 
> > I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> > folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> > could ever possibly be to this project.
> 
> Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler
> and saner way...
> 
> Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those
> 2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair
> this treatment had been.
> 
Jakub,

Luca is exactly right here.  The suspension is meant to be a cooling off
period, not a message that says "please resign".  So please, both for
yourself and for Gentoo, reconsider your resignation and use the two
weeks to cool off, relax, or whatever.  I believe your work is most
important, and I'd hate to lose it over this rather small matter.

If you wish, please contact me privately.  I'll discuss anything you
like.
> lu
> 
> -- 
> 
> Luca Barbato
> 
> Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
> 
Regards,
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Rob C]

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On 17/04/07, Jakub Moc <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.
>
> I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
> by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
> devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".
>
> So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of
> his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I
> fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more
> important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately
> those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of
> course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as
> suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal.
>
> I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've
> been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position
> of QA lead and eroyf  joined them. This can be documented on way too
> many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a
> good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for
> the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm
> pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be
> concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years,
> we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right.
>
> Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
> the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
> devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
> if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
> before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
> "discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
> the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
> months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
> devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender
> in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way
> we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could
> endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that.
>
> Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
> address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
> bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
> and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
> you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
> your limbo),
>
> For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry,
> no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
> appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing.
>
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
>
> [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772
> [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519
> [3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm
> [4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790
> [5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852
>
> --
>
> Jakub Moc
> Email: jakub.moc@gmail.com
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
You are one of the most productive devs we have (had...). You've helped me
on more than on occasion.

While I'm sure anybody could build a "the world hates me" case from
selecting a few particular bugzie entries I'm also pretty sure that peoples
personalities will have caused more of an issue here than their actions...

Good luck in the future, enjoy having some free time!

-Rob
-- 
/**
  * Gentoo Linux Developer
  * GPG : 0x2217D168
  */

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Alin Năstac]

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Jakub Moc wrote:
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
Sorry to see you go, man! You were one of the most hard working devs out
there.
Your contribution will not be forgotten.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 06:01:46AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> 
> Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
> address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
> bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
> and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
> you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
> your limbo),
> 
This policy have recently changed as part of an overhaul on retirement
procedures. You'll have to create a new user account and watch the
jakub@gentoo.org as documented in
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/retire-process.xml (See
'Retire Bugzilla account' part).

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/17/07, Bryan Østergaard <kloeri@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 06:01:46AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> >
> > Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
> > address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
> > bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
> > and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
> > you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
> > your limbo),
> >
> This policy have recently changed as part of an overhaul on retirement
> procedures. You'll have to create a new user account and watch the
> jakub@gentoo.org as documented in
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/retire-process.xml (See
> 'Retire Bugzilla account' part).

Oh, wonderful. Thanks so much, really helps and makes a lot of sense
to nuke people from the bugs they've themselves filed.

Bye.

--

Jakub Moc
Email: jakub.moc@gmail.com
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Petteri Räty]

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Jakub Moc kirjoitti:
> On 4/17/07, Bryan Østergaard <kloeri@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 06:01:46AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> >
>> > Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
>> > address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
>> > bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
>> > and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
>> > you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
>> > your limbo),
>> >
>> This policy have recently changed as part of an overhaul on retirement
>> procedures. You'll have to create a new user account and watch the
>> jakub@gentoo.org as documented in
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/retire-process.xml (See
>> 'Retire Bugzilla account' part).
> 
> Oh, wonderful. Thanks so much, really helps and makes a lot of sense
> to nuke people from the bugs they've themselves filed.
> 
> Bye.

You can still set a watch to jakub@gentoo.org.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Luca Barbato]

Petteri Räty wrote:
> 
> You can still set a watch to jakub@gentoo.org.

Better:

you can take your account back in 2 weeks, in the mean time please have
a vacation, think about ways to not get too annoyed by people in dummy
mode (like me and others from time to time) and please don't be angry
because of this forced cool down time =)

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen]

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On Tuesday 17 April 2007 06:01, Jakub Moc wrote:
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
I'm sad to see you go but I can't say that I don't understand you. It has been 
great having you shove security bugs our way when needed.

Thank you for your work and best of luck with your future endeavours.

-- 
Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen (Jaervosz)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Christopher Sawtell]

On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the 
message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment 
about it?

I don't think I can be receiving all messages posted to this list.

Thanks.

-- 
CS
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Christopher Sawtell <csawtell@paradise.net.nz>:

> On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any
> > more. I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of
> the message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal
> judgment about it?

 It was posted on -core, so you probably won't be able to read it.

V-Li

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Christopher Sawtell]

On Tuesday 17 April 2007 22:32:34 Christian Faulhammer wrote:
> Christopher Sawtell <csawtell@paradise.net.nz>:
> > On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> > > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any
> > > more. I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> >
> > I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of
> > the message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal
> > judgment about it?
>
>  It was posted on -core, so you probably won't be able to read it.
Correct. I was mystified as to why Jakub had received this treatment. During 
the relatively short time I have been on this list I have read almost all 
the postings. While some ofJakub's postings have certainly been somewhat 
acerbic, I do not recall any which I would  classify as 'objectionable'.

I just hope we are not going to get overly 'precious' about this CoC thing, 
which btw, I note contains the colloquial phrase 'If you screw up ...'. 
That sort of lazy slang language has no place in the official document set 
of any self-respecting organisation. Might I suggest it be replaced by 
something akin to 'If you discover you have made as mistake ...'.
Also I noticed a simple typo: s/noone/no one/ in the previous paragraph.

-- 
CS
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 11:35:01PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote:
> I just hope we are not going to get overly 'precious' about this CoC thing, 
> which btw, I note contains the colloquial phrase 'If you screw up ...'. 
> That sort of lazy slang language has no place in the official document set 
> of any self-respecting organisation. Might I suggest it be replaced by 
> something akin to 'If you discover you have made as mistake ...'.
> Also I noticed a simple typo: s/noone/no one/ in the previous paragraph.

Thanks for the input, the council already asked us to go over it and
do some rewording/a more positive approach/etc. We'll keep your
suggestions in mind, too.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Christopher Sawtell]

On Tuesday 17 April 2007 23:42:36 Wernfried Haas wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 11:35:01PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote:
> > I just hope we are not going to get overly 'precious' about this CoC
> > thing, which btw, I note contains the colloquial phrase 'If you screw
> > up ...'. That sort of lazy slang language has no place in the official
> > document set of any self-respecting organisation. Might I suggest it be
> > replaced by something akin to 'If you discover you have made as mistake
> > ...'. Also I noticed a simple typo: s/noone/no one/ in the previous
> > paragraph.
>
> Thanks for the input, the council already asked us to go over it and
> do some rewording/a more positive approach/etc. We'll keep your
> suggestions in mind, too.

You might find reading the Debian, and particularly, the Ubuntu Code of 
Conduct a worth-while execise.
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

I find it interesting that the mainstream media have also started publishing 
Codes of Conduct for their comment blogs.

-- 
CS
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 11:54:31PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote:
> You might find reading the Debian, and particularly, the Ubuntu Code of 
> Conduct a worth-while execise.
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Yeah, that one has already been mentioned in the discussion about the
CoC. :-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 10:28:21PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the 
> message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment 
> about it?
> 
There's no such thing as it's based on general bad behaviour and not
just a single incident.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Raúl Porcel]

Sad to see you go. In my pov you really did a good job.

I hope the ones in charge of bugzilla come with a solution to this.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Steve Long]

Jakub Moc wrote:

> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
OMG NO! Please reconsider.

> I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
> by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
> devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".
> 
Man first you devs think it's your god-given right to behave nastily to any
usr, then you get all sensitive about Jakub on bugzilla. That is lame, imo.
Maybe there should be something about requiring a thick skin to be a dev,
since you so clearly require it of usrs.

> 
> Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
> the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
> devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
> if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
> before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
> "discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
> the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
> months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
> devrel.
>
So who watches the watchmen? IOW who does one take a complaint about devrel
to, and will there be any action?

The classic answer was always "We watch each other," but that's clearly not
working if you are left out of a discussion regarding yourself for 9
months.

/me eyes sourceMage in desperation.


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 01:34:02PM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> 
> > I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> > folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> > could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
> > by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
> > devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".
> > 
> Man first you devs think it's your god-given right to behave nastily to any
> usr, then you get all sensitive about Jakub on bugzilla. That is lame, imo.
> Maybe there should be something about requiring a thick skin to be a dev,
> since you so clearly require it of usrs.
> 
On the contrary we warn people about not behaving badly and if that
doesn't help despite many warnings and complaints being filed we finally
take to firmer action which is exactly what have happened in this case.
> >
> So who watches the watchmen? IOW who does one take a complaint about devrel
> to, and will there be any action?
Complaints about devrel actions should be sent to the Gentoo Council as
I've said several times before regarding this and other devrel
decisions.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Bryan Østergaard wrote:
<snip>
> On the contrary we warn people about not behaving badly and if that
> doesn't help despite many warnings and complaints being filed we finally
> take to firmer action which is exactly what have happened in this case.
<snip>
> Regards,
> Bryan Østergaard

Sorry, I am going to have to call bullshit.  The only part of that 
statement that is remotely true is the last line of that paragraph.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Grant Goodyear]

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Steev Klimaszewski wrote: [Tue Apr 17 2007, 08:58:59AM CDT]
> Bryan Østergaard wrote:
> <snip>
> >On the contrary we warn people about not behaving badly and if that
> >doesn't help despite many warnings and complaints being filed we finally
> >take to firmer action which is exactly what have happened in this case.
> <snip>
> >Regards,
> >Bryan Østergaard
> 
> Sorry, I am going to have to call bullshit.  The only part of that 
> statement that is remotely true is the last line of that paragraph.

This sort of e-mail isn't particularly helpful.  In essence, you've 
baldly called somebody a liar in public, while providing no evidence
to support your allegation.  You might get better results if you at
least pretend that you might not have all of the relevant facts (even
if you're sure that you do) and ask for clarification based on what you
think you know.  Here's an example: "That last paragraph doesn't seem to
agree with what I've observed, where ....  Could you explain where the
discrepancy arises?"  

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear	
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0  9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Duncan]

Grant Goodyear <g2boojum@gentoo.org> posted
20070417203355.GK4949@feynman.corp.halliburton.com, excerpted below, on 
Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:33:55 -0500:

> This sort of e-mail isn't particularly helpful[.] You might get better
> results if you [...] ask for clarification based on what you
> think you know.  Here's an example: "That last paragraph doesn't seem to
> agree with what I've observed, where ....  Could you explain where the
> discrepancy arises?"

+1  Words of wisdom.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Dan Meltzer]

On 4/17/07, Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> Jakub Moc wrote:
>
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> >
> OMG NO! Please reconsider.
>
> > I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> > folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> > could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
> > by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
> > devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".
> >
> Man first you devs think it's your god-given right to behave nastily to any
> usr, then you get all sensitive about Jakub on bugzilla. That is lame, imo.
> Maybe there should be something about requiring a thick skin to be a dev,
> since you so clearly require it of usrs.

Please do some research before spouting off.  Watch the bug-wranglers@
alias for a few weeks (its too late now) to see that jakub tended to
yell and scream and make a bigger mess than he resolved a lot of the
time when it came to bug wrangling.
>
> >
> > Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
> > the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
> > devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
> > if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
> > before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
> > "discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
> > the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
> > months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
> > devrel.
> >
> So who watches the watchmen? IOW who does one take a complaint about devrel
> to, and will there be any action?
>
> The classic answer was always "We watch each other," but that's clearly not
> working if you are left out of a discussion regarding yourself for 9
> months.
>
> /me eyes sourceMage in desperation.
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Steve Long]

Dan Meltzer wrote:
>> >
>> Man first you devs think it's your god-given right to behave nastily to
>> any usr, then you get all sensitive about Jakub on bugzilla. That is
>> lame, imo. Maybe there should be something about requiring a thick skin
>> to be a dev, since you so clearly require it of usrs.
> 
> Please do some research before spouting off.  Watch the bug-wranglers@
> alias for a few weeks (its too late now) to see that jakub tended to
> yell and scream and make a bigger mess than he resolved a lot of the
> time when it came to bug wrangling.

That's your opinion, which you're perfectly entitled to express. Others
clearly disagree, so there isn't consensus by any stretch of the
imagination. Mine is that the issues he raised should have been dealt with
so that he didn't need to shout, and more importantly that QA was improved.
Which was why he was shouting.

And I'm not spouting off: if you expect us to deal with rude devs, they
should at least be able to accept criticism from the best bug-wrangler you
guys have. If it means someone needs to translate occasionally, so what?
spanky did that pretty well in the cases where I needed help.

>>
>> The classic answer was always "We watch each other," but that's clearly
>> not working if you are left out of a discussion regarding yourself for 9
>> months.
>>
Devrel==HR/Personnel imo.

The real point is that bug-wranglers has lost over 50% of it's
effectiveness, again imo. jakub and spanky are the two main guys, and it's
not just the loss of jakub's prodigious work-rate, which kept a lot bugs
from even reaching devs, but the loss of his influence on QA which is a
complete disaster for gentoo.


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:29:29 +0200
"Ioannis Aslanidis" <aslanidis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The real point is that bug-wranglers has lost over 50% of it's
> > effectiveness, again imo. jakub and spanky are the two main guys,
> > and it's not just the loss of jakub's prodigious work-rate, which
> > kept a lot bugs from even reaching devs, but the loss of his
> > influence on QA which is a complete disaster for gentoo.
> 
> Add +1 to that.

Alright, since the hyperbole won't stop...

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167285#c11
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160328
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96893#c12
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_142226.xml
http://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=116232604808191&w=2

...does anyone want another few pages of that kind of thing? Devrel has
for once gotten something more or less right. Perhaps people should be
thanking them instead.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Steve Long]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:29:29 +0200
> "Ioannis Aslanidis" <aslanidis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The real point is that bug-wranglers has lost over 50% of it's
>> > effectiveness, again imo. jakub and spanky are the two main guys,
>> > and it's not just the loss of jakub's prodigious work-rate, which
>> > kept a lot bugs from even reaching devs, but the loss of his
>> > influence on QA which is a complete disaster for gentoo.
>> 
>> Add +1 to that.

<snip examples of bad behaviour>
> ...does anyone want another few pages of that kind of thing? Devrel has
> for once gotten something more or less right. Perhaps people should be
> thanking them instead.
>
You're ignoring the point made about the amount of bugs Jakub kept away from
devs, and the loss of his influence on QA. Quoting examples of his bad
bahaviour doesn't change the fact that it is unacceptable for devrel to
discuss his case without involving him.

Please note this is not the same as discussing a complaint with the
complainant, prior to discussing a dev's behaviour as a team. And no, I
don't want pages more; I agree Jakub can be difficult. But at least he is
difficult in the cause of achieving something real and positive for gentoo. 

And from the comments of others, *he gets the result*.

It's not just me that thinks there haven't been any major b0rkages for
nearly a year. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the development process
has actually worked /better/ since you were forcibly retired?


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 11:36:09AM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> It's not just me that thinks there haven't been any major b0rkages for
> nearly a year. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the development process
> has actually worked /better/ since you were forcibly retired?

Can you *please* stop writing such nonsense here?

- ferdy

-- 
Fernando J. Pereda Garcimartín
20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:36:09 +0100
Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> <snip examples of bad behaviour>
> > ...does anyone want another few pages of that kind of thing? Devrel
> > has for once gotten something more or less right. Perhaps people
> > should be thanking them instead.
> >
> You're ignoring the point made about the amount of bugs Jakub kept
> away from devs and the loss of his influence on QA

Jakub's influence on QA is best summed up by the likes of
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160328 and
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167285#c11 ...

> It's not just me that thinks there haven't been any major b0rkages for
> nearly a year. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the development
> process has actually worked /better/ since you were forcibly retired?

Please stop that nonsense... You've already repeatedly been asked to
stop turning everything into random attacks upon unrelated parties...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Please stop that nonsense... You've already repeatedly been asked to
> stop turning everything into random attacks upon unrelated parties...
> 

Pot? Kettle?
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 11:36:09AM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:29:29 +0200
> > "Ioannis Aslanidis" <aslanidis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > The real point is that bug-wranglers has lost over 50% of it's
> >> > effectiveness, again imo. jakub and spanky are the two main guys,
> >> > and it's not just the loss of jakub's prodigious work-rate, which
> >> > kept a lot bugs from even reaching devs, but the loss of his
> >> > influence on QA which is a complete disaster for gentoo.
> >> 
> >> Add +1 to that.
> 
> <snip examples of bad behaviour>
> > ...does anyone want another few pages of that kind of thing? Devrel has
> > for once gotten something more or less right. Perhaps people should be
> > thanking them instead.
> >
> You're ignoring the point made about the amount of bugs Jakub kept away from
> devs, and the loss of his influence on QA. Quoting examples of his bad
> bahaviour doesn't change the fact that it is unacceptable for devrel to
> discuss his case without involving him.
Devrel have warned him numerous times to behave properly and stop
attacking other devs and users. How is that not involving him?
> 
> Please note this is not the same as discussing a complaint with the
> complainant, prior to discussing a dev's behaviour as a team. And no, I
> don't want pages more; I agree Jakub can be difficult. But at least he is
> difficult in the cause of achieving something real and positive for gentoo. 
He's also difficult in marking several valid bugs INVALID, refusing to
reopen them and refusing to assign them to the maintainers in several
cases.

Besides I'd like to remind everybody that spending a lot of time on
Gentoo, getting lots of things done, having a tough job etc. doesn't in
any way justify bad behaviour. If you're having a tough time and
starting to react badly it's time to ask ombudsman, proctors or maybe
even devrel to help solve the problem or maybe even take a vacation from
Gentoo. Failing to do so is quite often just going to make things worse
and ultimately result in suspensions or even forced retirement.
> 
> And from the comments of others, *he gets the result*.
Sure, he gets things done. And it would be much better if he worked
together with other devs in a friendly way and stopped getting in the
way of maintainers as he has done on many occasions.
> 
> It's not just me that thinks there haven't been any major b0rkages for
> nearly a year. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the development process
> has actually worked /better/ since you were forcibly retired?
That's completely unrelated to the current discussion and there's
absolutely no need for such attacks.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Stephen P. Becker]

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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:36:09 +0100
Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> And from the comments of others, *he gets the result*.

Incidentally, many tried to make that same argument about Ciaran.

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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This thread is not going anywhere useful, and does not belong on -dev.
There was a request to move it to gentoo-devrel if there was any need to
continue it.  Please do that.

Me, I don't see that there's much new ground to cover at this point.

Regards,
Ferris

-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 11:36 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> And from the comments of others, *he gets the result*.

So what?

We are a community.  We cannot allow poisonous attitudes to flourish in
our community, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CONTRIBUTION.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Poison (Was: Re: Re: Re: Resignation)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:22:23 -0400
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> We are a community.  We cannot allow poisonous attitudes to flourish
> in our community, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CONTRIBUTION.

Mmm, I must say, though, that the whole "dismiss something as being
poisonous rather than providing a reasoned justification" thing is
itself extremely poisonous. Whereas previously people were expected to
come up with something at least vaguely resembling a reason, now it
appears sufficient to yell "POISON!" in much the same way that certain
politicians like to yell "TERRORIST!"...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 4/19/07, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 11:36 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> > And from the comments of others, *he gets the result*.
>
> So what?
>
> We are a community.  We cannot allow poisonous attitudes to flourish in
> our community, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CONTRIBUTION.
>

I would mark Jakub's attitude as poisonous, rather the opposite, but
anyway, let's indeed take this conversation away from here.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Alec Warner]

As I see it most people have a couple of roads here:

You want more information regarding the issue surrounding the suspension
 of Jakub or you have a problem with the manner in which the issue was
handled/executed.  You can reach devrel at devrel@gentoo.org and on
their mailing list, gentoo-devrel@gentoo.org

You disagree with the suspension and want to do something about it.
Please contact your local council member at username@gentoo.org, or
council@gentoo.org, or gentoo-council@gentoo.org (the last is a mailing
list).

Note that gentoo-dev@gentoo.org was not mentioned once, since it is for
development.  I'd love for people to actually read this ML again, which
means I get to nag people about taking their issues to the appropriate
people.

-Alec
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Larry Lines]

On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 08:52 -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> As I see it most people have a couple of roads here:
> 
> You want more information regarding the issue surrounding the suspension
>  of Jakub or you have a problem with the manner in which the issue was
> handled/executed.  You can reach devrel at devrel@gentoo.org and on
> their mailing list, gentoo-devrel@gentoo.org
> 
> You disagree with the suspension and want to do something about it.
> Please contact your local council member at username@gentoo.org, or
> council@gentoo.org, or gentoo-council@gentoo.org (the last is a mailing
> list).
> 
> Note that gentoo-dev@gentoo.org was not mentioned once, since it is for
> development.  I'd love for people to actually read this ML again, which
> means I get to nag people about taking their issues to the appropriate
> people.
> 
> -Alec

I propose a new mailing list called gentoo-dev-flamewars@gentoo.org.
That way we can just subscribe to the fight or not.

-Larry

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

I'm afraid to inform you that this was already proposed and was not
taken seriously! :)

On 4/19/07, Larry Lines <larry@twistedpop.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 08:52 -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> > As I see it most people have a couple of roads here:
> >
> > You want more information regarding the issue surrounding the suspension
> >  of Jakub or you have a problem with the manner in which the issue was
> > handled/executed.  You can reach devrel at devrel@gentoo.org and on
> > their mailing list, gentoo-devrel@gentoo.org
> >
> > You disagree with the suspension and want to do something about it.
> > Please contact your local council member at username@gentoo.org, or
> > council@gentoo.org, or gentoo-council@gentoo.org (the last is a mailing
> > list).
> >
> > Note that gentoo-dev@gentoo.org was not mentioned once, since it is for
> > development.  I'd love for people to actually read this ML again, which
> > means I get to nag people about taking their issues to the appropriate
> > people.
> >
> > -Alec
>
> I propose a new mailing list called gentoo-dev-flamewars@gentoo.org.
> That way we can just subscribe to the fight or not.
>
> -Larry
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Alec Warner]

Larry Lines wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 08:52 -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
>> As I see it most people have a couple of roads here:
>>
>> You want more information regarding the issue surrounding the suspension
>>  of Jakub or you have a problem with the manner in which the issue was
>> handled/executed.  You can reach devrel at devrel@gentoo.org and on
>> their mailing list, gentoo-devrel@gentoo.org
>>
>> You disagree with the suspension and want to do something about it.
>> Please contact your local council member at username@gentoo.org, or
>> council@gentoo.org, or gentoo-council@gentoo.org (the last is a mailing
>> list).
>>
>> Note that gentoo-dev@gentoo.org was not mentioned once, since it is for
>> development.  I'd love for people to actually read this ML again, which
>> means I get to nag people about taking their issues to the appropriate
>> people.
>>
>> -Alec
> 
> I propose a new mailing list called gentoo-dev-flamewars@gentoo.org.
> That way we can just subscribe to the fight or not.
> 
> -Larry
> 

See but that joke has been done like 1000 times; my comment was not
meant in jest.  The whole point is that people can whine all they want
but no one will actually do anything about it; hence my request to step
up and take action if everyone really cares so much.  It's not like we
don't have existing routes to voice issues.  It's just that no one uses
them.

-Alec
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Larry Lines]

On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 09:11 -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> Larry Lines wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 08:52 -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> >> As I see it most people have a couple of roads here:
> >>
> >> You want more information regarding the issue surrounding the suspension
> >>  of Jakub or you have a problem with the manner in which the issue was
> >> handled/executed.  You can reach devrel at devrel@gentoo.org and on
> >> their mailing list, gentoo-devrel@gentoo.org
> >>
> >> You disagree with the suspension and want to do something about it.
> >> Please contact your local council member at username@gentoo.org, or
> >> council@gentoo.org, or gentoo-council@gentoo.org (the last is a mailing
> >> list).
> >>
> >> Note that gentoo-dev@gentoo.org was not mentioned once, since it is for
> >> development.  I'd love for people to actually read this ML again, which
> >> means I get to nag people about taking their issues to the appropriate
> >> people.
> >>
> >> -Alec
> > 
> > I propose a new mailing list called gentoo-dev-flamewars@gentoo.org.
> > That way we can just subscribe to the fight or not.
> > 
> > -Larry
> > 
> 
> See but that joke has been done like 1000 times; my comment was not
> meant in jest.  The whole point is that people can whine all they want
> but no one will actually do anything about it; hence my request to step
> up and take action if everyone really cares so much.  It's not like we
> don't have existing routes to voice issues.  It's just that no one uses
> them.
> 
> -Alec

Sorry for the repetition.  I wasn't around for the original jokes and I
definitely don't want to diminish your message which seems appropriately
placed.  I am trying to get a sense of how development works in the
community, but I spend a lot of time deleting email that has nothing to
do with development.

-Larry

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Jan Kundrát]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167285#c11

Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.

> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160328

Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.

> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96893#c12

Back when we were asked to try bugstest.gentoo.org, the original 
announcement didn't explicitly mention that SSL and name-based vhosts 
suck when used together. When we hit https://bugstest.gentoo.org/, we 
were hitting the real bugzilla. Infra added a note about it later. I was 
one of those that modified real content by accident. Jakub was another, 
probably trying to test post length enforcement in this case, and he 
explained what happened at http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=133844#c4.

So, show me name calling and/or insulting behavior, please.

> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_142226.xml

Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.

> http://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=116232604808191&w=2

Both jakub's and kloeri's reaction's quality is below standard.

Cheers,
-jkt
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Mike Doty]

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Hash: SHA1

Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167285#c11
> 
> Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.
> 
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160328
> 
> Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.
> 
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96893#c12
> 
> Back when we were asked to try bugstest.gentoo.org, the original
> announcement didn't explicitly mention that SSL and name-based vhosts
> suck when used together. When we hit https://bugstest.gentoo.org/, we
> were hitting the real bugzilla. Infra added a note about it later. I was
> one of those that modified real content by accident. Jakub was another,
> probably trying to test post length enforcement in this case, and he
> explained what happened at
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=133844#c4.
> 
> So, show me name calling and/or insulting behavior, please.
> 
>> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_142226.xml
> 
> Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.
> 
>> http://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=116232604808191&w=2
> 
> Both jakub's and kloeri's reaction's quality is below standard.
> 
> Cheers,
> -jkt
Not on the -dev mailing list; this is for development, not fighting.

- --
=======================================================
Mike Doty                      kingtaco -at- gentoo.org
Gentoo Council
Gentoo Infrastructure
Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:39:47 +0200
Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.

If you want a list of *that*, look at 134852. But we were discussing
Jakub's contributions, not Jakub's bad behaviour.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Steve Long]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Show me name calling and/or insulting behavior.
> 
> If you want a list of *that*, look at 134852. But we were discussing
> Jakub's contributions, not Jakub's bad behaviour.
> 
I think this is a much more representative example of "Jakub's
contributions":
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137665
but we have several times been asked not to post in this forum, so I suggest
interested parties comment here:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-553787.html
>From the current discussion, it looks like Jakub knew about the devrel bug,
since he removed himself from it. That was my only concern, whether the
process of suspension had been carried out properly.
Jakub: please don't resign. Take the time to chill out and realise how much
support you have from devs and users both, and come back to a well-deserved
hero's welcome. Just remember: no drinking that mad beer you love and then
logging into bugzilla ;)


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Resignation

[Wernfried Haas]

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Ciaran, Steve,
I think i made it clear this subthread needs to be left alone here and
moved to a better place (if any) as already explained here:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/48164/focus=48271

So please stop it, both of you.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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[proctors] Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Resignation

[Wernfried Haas]

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I seem to miss a mail or two here, so the reply is not at the exact
starting point of this subthread.
As already pointed out by Mike, Alec, Ferris and probably others, this
thread has degraded far enough and is off topic here. If you still
want to discuss it, do it in a civil way and in the right place (see
the other mails where that may be).

Thanks,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jeffrey Gardner]

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Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
big a deal.


- --
Jeffrey Gardner
Gentoo Developer
Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23
hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 09:04 -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
> sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
> But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
> remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
> big a deal.
> 
> 
Small correction, just for accuracy's sake:  Suspension is under devrel
policy, not CoC.  Otherwise, I fully agree with your last sentence.

> - --
> Jeffrey Gardner
> Gentoo Developer
> Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23
> hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu
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Regards,
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 09:04:39AM -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
> sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
> But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
> remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
> big a deal.
> 
Ok, I'm going to quote something I wrote on the -core mailing list that
will hopefully help to clear up this misunderstanding about the decision
being based on the new code of conduct.

"Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned CoC at all since it seems to confuse a
few people.

We're not suspending jakub based on CoC but based on a long string of
bad behaviour. That behaviour certainly violates the code of conduct in
many cases but the suspension isn't based on CoC as such but rather the
numerous devrel complaints and warnings he's already received."

In short, the suspension is based on repeated bad behaviour during a
long period of time and despite warning him several times there's been
no improvement in his behaviour. That's why we're calling for a timeout
with this suspension and hoping that jakub will reconsider his
behaviour.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Samuli Suominen]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
"Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:

> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
them.. 

Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.

- Samuli Suominen
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Peter Weller]

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Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:31:00 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
> "Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any
> > more. I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
> reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
> developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
> the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
> them.. 
> 
> Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.
> 
> - Samuli Suominen

++
/me cries

Even if you do go through with the retirement, you'll still provide me
with milk, right? ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Charlie Shepherd]

On 17/04/07, Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
> "Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
>
> I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
> reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
> developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
> the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
> them..
>
> Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.


I was going to write a reply to this effect but you've written it a
lot better than I ever could. Jakub, I'll miss you.


-- 
-Charlie
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Tim Yamin]

All,

I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer
tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months
the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been
eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions,
staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence.

It transpires that from the recent barrage of developers leaving, the
disquiet and increasing lack of congruence of the developer (and to
some extent also the user) communities that something is inherently
wrong. I'm leaving it as an exercise to the reader to explore exactly
what (if anything) is wrong.

Seeing as we have failed to address these challenges over the course
of many months and as a result of continuous recent discussions (which
half the time end up being totally redundant due to miscommunication)
both on -core and on -dev, it is evident that something is wrong with
the core management (or lack thereof, depending on your point of view).

I no longer have the commitment or desire to follow the road in
solving the above challenges. I'm not really sure whether there even
is a solution. I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed my time in
the past three years working with Gentoo and helping to contribute to
the then vibrant and dynamic community.

Lately however, the "fun" and the motivation just hasn't been there
for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and
I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally
come for me.

I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.

So long, and thanks for all the fish...

Tim.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer]

Tach Tim,                                  0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID)

Tim Yamin schrieb:
> So long, and thanks for all the fish...

 Even I hope you rethink it...

V-Li

-- 
Fingerprint: 68C5 D381 B69A A777 6A91 E999 350A AD7C 2B85 9DE3
http://www.gnupg.org/
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[gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Stefan Schweizer]

To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,

Sunrise is about contributing ebuilds and getting feedback and review while
doing so. The main resource this currently happens for is the Gentoo User
Overlay of Sunrise and second come ebuilds that get into portage afterwards

In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
the overlay:

- we currently have 154 ebuilds in 58 categories in the overlay
  not counting the ebuilds that got into portage and were removed again

- we have 8 developers, 4 trusted committers who have taken the ebuild quiz
  and 26 users committing to the overlay

The basic project concept of creating a social workspace has been reached.
#gentoo-sunrise is an active IRC channel where users usually find help
quickly and it also forms a friendly community.

Best regards,
Stefan

[1]     http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20060720-summary.txt
        http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20060720.txt
Other useful resources:
Project page http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/sunrise/
svn reviewed http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/svn/reviewed/
cia page     http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/sunrise/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> | we take a risk with this project (like every single other
> | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we
> | kill it, no big deal
> 
> How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
> considered to "suck and cause problems"?

I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise.  I know of only
one developer who left.  He left in a huff, in an emotional "I'm taking
toys, because I don't like them" way, without actually raising any
issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA.
Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting
place.



-- 
Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a
| starting place.

-!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise]
-!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs
staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK
SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis 

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Brett I. Holcomb]

I am only a user and have been keeping out of this debate but I feel I need to 
at least express my thoughts.  I have been folllowing the Sunrise thread(s) 
since it started.  I have done a couple of ebuilds a long time ago and 
would love to have been able to contribute to Gentoo but due to time 
constraints - not enough of it <G> - I just can't. 

I have been a longtime Gentoo user and have loved it because A) it had no
rpms (I had to write them for Caldera), B).  It allowed me to configure a 
system for me quickly that ran well without bloat C) It was easy to keep 
updated - no hassling with Yast, yum, apt-get, etc. and D). it was 
dependable - you could download the x86 and know it would work with very few 
issues.

However, I am going to be building a new system from scratch and this sunrise 
mess is causing me to revevaluate my choice of distro.  My concerns - first 
for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost 
anything with no QA.  It's a BMG that's offical!  My concern - for users - is 
that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when 
they don't  - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer.

Gentoo provides a means for people to participate on several levels.   They 
can do as I did and do a few ebuild and submit them to bugzilla - if there's 
enough demand then they'll eventually get in portage.  They can also take a 
quiz and do ebuilds on a more official level.  Or they can work to be a 
developer.  All of these paths ensure that we have proper QA and control.

The sunrise people seem bent out of shape that ebuilds sit in bugzilla and 
don't get in the tree.  One comment was that it's discouraging. Well, tough - 
the user who submitted it can get over it and realize that the application 
that is so precious to him is not that wonderful to anyone else.  I did with 
mine - I understood that I did them to accomplish something I needed and I 
put them in bugzilla just in case anyone else had a need but I had no 
expectation of them going into portage.  In fact one of my ebuilds was based 
on another ebuild someone put in portage for the same reason - the author had 
a need, wrote an ebuild and then shared it.  If a user really wants his 
ebuild in portage he'll take the quiz and become a more official part of 
Gentoo - but he will have been tested and checked out.

I administer systems (mainly Windows  but also AIX and LInux - and Linux is my 
main home system!) at my job in IT Operations.  Some of my systems can 
shutdown the business if I mess up.  That's why I do things like run upgrades 
on test systems or use VMware to test out before I turn the changes 
loose.  At home I also need my system to run and work.  I won't be 
downloading Sunrise stuff but I UNDERSTAND the consequences - most users will 
not understand as they figure "It's gentoo so it works".  Look at the 
confusion with ~arch vs arch.  People go with ~arch and then get upset when 
it breaks.   

I know I'm only one user but I'm really disappointed that the Council turned 
sunrise official.  It gives me serious concern a bout Gentoo's reliablity and 
their reputation.

On Sunday July 30 2006 23:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
>
> wrote:
> | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a
> | starting place.
>
> -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise]
> -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs
> staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK
> SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh
> Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk

-- 

Brett I. Holcomb

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Alex Tarkovsky]

On 7/30/06, Brett I. Holcomb <brettholcomb@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to
> submit almost anything with no QA.

This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Every single
user-authored submission made available in the public overlay was
placed there by existing Gentoo developers who've reviewed and
approved them. When you check out Sunrise using layman for instance,
you are getting what's known as the "reviewed" tree, not the tree that
users commit directly to. If these facts still don't assuage your
concerns then don't use the Sunrise overlay -- it's that simple.

I suspect this myth perpetuates because its supporters haven't
actually bothered to review the Sunrise procedures [2] already in
place and in use. Another source of enlightenment which many, if not
all, of the detractors don't seem to have indulged in is dropping by
#gentoo-sunrise and watching the Sunrise process as it happens in
practice. Please do your homework people, otherwise you're just
spreading FUD.

[1] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq
[2] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/HowToCommit
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 "Alex Tarkovsky"
<alextarkovsky@gmail.com> wrote:
| This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
| developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1].

Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?

Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing
QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four
people can?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ryan Hill]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 "Alex Tarkovsky"
> | This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
> | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1].

> Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?

You know, that was a completely unnecessary personal attack.  God forbid anyone 
take the time to attempt something they think may be beneficial to the 
community.  If you in all your elitist wisdom think you can do better then try 
helping out.  If not, then please fuck off.

> Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing
> QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four
> people can?

If a couple of hundred developers actually paid any attention whatsoever to 
maintainer-wanted ebuilds then there wouldn't have to be any such project in the 
first place.

--de.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:22:33 -0600 Ryan Hill <dirtyepic.sk@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 "Alex Tarkovsky"
| > | This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual
| > | Gentoo developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1].
| 
| > Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?
| 
| You know, that was a completely unnecessary personal attack.  God
| forbid anyone take the time to attempt something they think may be
| beneficial to the community.  If you in all your elitist wisdom think
| you can do better then try helping out.  If not, then please fuck off.

Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
developers. Screwups lose users and developers.

Would you stick a bunch of war evacuees on a plane piloted by Britney
Spears if she said she was doing it because she wanted to be helpful?

| > Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle
| > doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you
| > think four people can?
| 
| If a couple of hundred developers actually paid any attention
| whatsoever to maintainer-wanted ebuilds then there wouldn't have to
| be any such project in the first place.

A couple of hundred developers can barely handle the main tree...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ryan Hill]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:22:33 -0600 Ryan Hill <dirtyepic.sk@gmail.com>
> | Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

> | > Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?
> | 
> | You know, that was a completely unnecessary personal attack.  God
> | forbid anyone take the time to attempt something they think may be
> | beneficial to the community.  If you in all your elitist wisdom think
> | you can do better then try helping out.  If not, then please fuck off.
> 
> Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
> developers. Screwups lose users and developers.
> 
> Would you stick a bunch of war evacuees on a plane piloted by Britney
> Spears if she said she was doing it because she wanted to be helpful?

Britney Spears being the Sunrise Developers and the evacuees being.. a bunch of 
packages that have no relevance whatsoever since they're copies of ebuilds 
already in bugzilla?  When Britney crashes and burns the ebuilds aren't 
vapourized into a fine red mist.  If Sunrise bombs we're back to the status quo 
with nothing lost.

> | > Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle
> | > doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you
> | > think four people can?
> | 
> | If a couple of hundred developers actually paid any attention
> | whatsoever to maintainer-wanted ebuilds then there wouldn't have to
> | be any such project in the first place.
> 
> A couple of hundred developers can barely handle the main tree...

True.  Some of them want to focus on the nastier bits of it though.  Why should 
we stop them?

Hostility aside, do you have any alternate ideas?


--de.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:10:52 -0600 Ryan Hill <dirtyepic.sk@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Britney Spears being the Sunrise Developers and the evacuees being..
| a bunch of packages that have no relevance whatsoever since they're
| copies of ebuilds already in bugzilla?  When Britney crashes and
| burns the ebuilds aren't vapourized into a fine red mist.  If Sunrise
| bombs we're back to the status quo with nothing lost.

...except for users, developers and reputation.

| Hostility aside, do you have any alternate ideas?

I don't have a perfect solution, no. Unfortunately, knowing why one
thing won't work doesn't automatically let you know what will. Having
said that, any solution that's going to get acceptance from the QA
conscious is pretty much going to have to be based around herd-oriented
overlays rather than a huge general mishmash, and is going to have
to be designed based around requirements rather than around what a few
people can shove through before anyone notices...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 31 July 2006 02:21, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> I don't have a perfect solution, no. Unfortunately, knowing why one
> thing won't work doesn't automatically let you know what will.

and knowing what does/doesnt work comes a lot from experience, not solely 
making conjectures about how we think everything will work out
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Simon Stelling]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
> developers. Screwups lose users and developers.

It's really funny to hear such a statement from a person who made several great
developers leave the project.

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:10:45 +0200 Simon Stelling <blubb@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
| > developers. Screwups lose users and developers.
| 
| It's really funny to hear such a statement from a person who made
| several great developers leave the project.

No, what's funny is watching people do nothing when Sunrise really is
making developers leave.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Georgi Georgiev]

maillog: 31/07/2006-09:21:51(+0100): Ciaran McCreesh types
> 
> No, what's funny is watching people do nothing when Sunrise really is
> making developers leave.

Did I miss someone's resignation, or was the plural "developers" an
exaggeration.

-- 
\    Georgi Georgiev   \  Amy: "What about Umbrielle?" Fry: "Well,   \
/     chutz@gg3.net    /  it turned out I loved her, but I wasn't in /
\  http://www.gg3.net/ \  love with her." Amy: "Trouble in bed."     \
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 31 July 2006 10:21, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:10:45 +0200 Simon Stelling <blubb@gentoo.org>
>
> wrote:
> | Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | > Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
> | > developers. Screwups lose users and developers.
> |
> | It's really funny to hear such a statement from a person who made
> | several great developers leave the project.
>
> No, what's funny is watching people do nothing when Sunrise really is
> making developers leave.

Ciaran,

The point is as valid now as it was 3 years ago. We accept that developers 
leave and don't care.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:58:32 +0200 Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| The point is as valid now as it was 3 years ago. We accept that
| developers leave and don't care.

I guess you've not been following Gentoo development as of late.
Current policy is that developers leaving is grounds to try to get
someone fired.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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