[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Tim Yamin]

All,

I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer
tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months
the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been
eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions,
staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence.

It transpires that from the recent barrage of developers leaving, the
disquiet and increasing lack of congruence of the developer (and to
some extent also the user) communities that something is inherently
wrong. I'm leaving it as an exercise to the reader to explore exactly
what (if anything) is wrong.

Seeing as we have failed to address these challenges over the course
of many months and as a result of continuous recent discussions (which
half the time end up being totally redundant due to miscommunication)
both on -core and on -dev, it is evident that something is wrong with
the core management (or lack thereof, depending on your point of view).

I no longer have the commitment or desire to follow the road in
solving the above challenges. I'm not really sure whether there even
is a solution. I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed my time in
the past three years working with Gentoo and helping to contribute to
the then vibrant and dynamic community.

Lately however, the "fun" and the motivation just hasn't been there
for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and
I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally
come for me.

I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.

So long, and thanks for all the fish...

Tim.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Stuart Herbert]

Hi Tim,

On 10/7/06, Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
> all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.

All the very best with whatever you do next.  It's been a real
pleasure working with you on Gentoo, and at the Gentoo UK conferences,
and you'll be sorely missed.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Andrew Gaffney]

Tim Yamin wrote:
> I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
> all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.
> 
> So long, and thanks for all the fish...

I can't say this was unexpected, but I'm sorry to see you go. Are you going to 
continue to contribute to various projects you've worked on such as gk4?

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
Today's lesson in political correctness:      "Go asphyxiate on a phallus"
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.10.07 22:19, Tim Yamin wrote:
> All,
> 
[snip]
> 
> So long, and thanks for all the fish...
> 
> Tim.
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 
Tim,

I'm sorry to see you depart.
Good luck for the future, see you around on irc.

Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Peter Weller]

Tim Yamin wrote:
> So long, and thanks for all the fish...
>
> Tim.
>   

Well, I've already given you my best wishes for the future, but it can't 
hurt to do it twice :P
Have fun doing whatever it is you'll be doing with yourself

Take care,
Peter Weller
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Tom Wesley]

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On Sat, Oct 07, 2006 at 09:19:14PM +0000, Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> All,
> 
> I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer
> tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months
> 

Sorry to see you leave.
Good luck.


tomaw.

> 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Danny van Dyk]

Hi Tim,

Am Samstag, 7. Oktober 2006 23:19 schrieb Tim Yamin:
> I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer
> tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months
> the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been
> eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad
> decisions, staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence.

I'm sorry to see you go, but i cannot agree with you here.
More below.

> It transpires that from the recent barrage of developers leaving, the
> disquiet and increasing lack of congruence of the developer (and to
> some extent also the user) communities that something is inherently
> wrong. I'm leaving it as an exercise to the reader to explore exactly
> what (if anything) is wrong.
Honestly, i think you're showing a weak shell here, but that's my 
personal opinion. QA and council asked you to do something you didn't 
like to do, and i still don't understand your reasoning.
Please think about this decision over a week or so.

Kloeri: Please don't file a retirement bug immediately.

> Seeing as we have failed to address these challenges over the course
> of many months and as a result of continuous recent discussions
> (which half the time end up being totally redundant due to
> miscommunication) both on -core and on -dev, it is evident that
> something is wrong with the core management (or lack thereof,
> depending on your point of view).
>
> I no longer have the commitment or desire to follow the road in
> solving the above challenges. I'm not really sure whether there even
> is a solution. I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed my time in
> the past three years working with Gentoo and helping to contribute to
> the then vibrant and dynamic community.

As have I while working with you, especially and mainly in release 
engineering.

> Lately however, the "fun" and the motivation just hasn't been there
> for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and
> I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally
> come for me.
As longas you stay away from microphones ;-)


> I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to
> thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so
> enjoyable.
Thank you very much

> So long, and thanks for all the fish...
I think you oughta know that I'm feeling very depressed :-(

Danny, who hopes to see you again next year!
-- 
Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Tim Yamin wrote:
> Lately however, the "fun" and the motivation just hasn't been there
> for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and
> I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally
> come for me.
> 
> I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
> all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.

Tim,

Thanks for all of the hard work you've put into Gentoo. I know it isn't
always appreciated, so I want to make sure you know how valuable you've
been.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Steve Dibb]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Tim Yamin wrote:
> 
>>Lately however, the "fun" and the motivation just hasn't been there
>>for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and
>>I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally
>>come for me.
>>
>>I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank
>>all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable.
> 
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Thanks for all of the hard work you've put into Gentoo. I know it isn't
> always appreciated, so I want to make sure you know how valuable you've
> been.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Good luck with everything.

Steve
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Wernfried Haas]

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Seeing you go under these circumstances really worries me. Perhaps you
want to reconsider it - if not: All the best!

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Shyam Mani]

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Tim Yamin wrote:

> So long, and thanks for all the fish...

Tim,

I'm very sad to see you leave Gentoo. All the best for your future
endeavors and do keep in touch.

Regards,

-- 
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
devrel     | http://devrel.gentoo.org
GPG Key    | 0xFDD0E345


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer]

Tach Tim,                                  0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID)

Tim Yamin schrieb:
> So long, and thanks for all the fish...

 Even I hope you rethink it...

V-Li

-- 
Fingerprint: 68C5 D381 B69A A777 6A91 E999 350A AD7C 2B85 9DE3
http://www.gnupg.org/
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jason Huebel]

On Saturday 07 October 2006 4:19 pm, Tim Yamin wrote:
> All,
>
> I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer
> tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months
> the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been
> eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions,
> staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence.

Which is all the more reason to stay on and work toward being in a position to 
change things.  If all the competent people leave, then who's left to run 
things?

Although I've stayed in the background for some time now, I have been watching 
the direction that Gentoo is taking.  I'm not at the point where I think 
Gentoo (as a community) is a lost cause. Far from it. But I do think that the 
Gentoo community has lacked some focus and direction in the past couple of 
years.  Certainly, individual projects have focused on the core goals they 
have. And that's a great thing. But it seems that there a lack of cohesive 
strategy at higher levels.  Gentoo management has become watered down and 
less effective.

Here's where I'm probably going to draw out the typically trolls who think 
it's their way or the highway, but let me preface my next comment by saying 
that I have the utmost respect for those who are working within the current 
management framework. However, I think the Gentoo council-- as the top level 
of the management structure-- consistently fails the Gentoo community in the 
area of focus and vision.  A project the size of Gentoo needs a leader, not 
just a governing council.  Someone who embodies the vision of the 
distribution and provides management focus.  While some of you may disagree, 
I believe the Gentoo community had that focus under drobbins.  I'm not saying 
that we install Daniel as the supreme dictator of Gentoo. I'm just saying 
that /someone/ should be elected as "the buck stops here" guy (or girl). A 
person who decides what the goals are for the distribution and (at a high 
level) manages the development to that end.  Someone who has the authority to 
say "no". The council would act as an advising board to that person, but this 
leader would have the power to decide what the priorities are in Gentoo.

Of course, that person should be someone who is well respected within the 
community and active on a daily basis with development. So obviously, I'm not 
nominating myself. :-) I think the 2006 Gentoo Council results[1] represent a 
really good cross-section of people who would do a fine job. However, I think 
the Gentoo lead should be a seperate entity.

Thoughts, comments? This is not an attempt to start an argument or flamewar. 
These are frank, sincere comments from a concerned developer.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see you go plasmaroo. I can understand your frustration. 
But it's a shame that good developers feel that their only recourse is to 
resign.

-- 
Jason Huebel
Gentoo Developer

GPG Public Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9BA9E230

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."
Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677)

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-results.txt
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Caleb Cushing]

I agree. what we're seeing is a failure of democracy. at first it
works. then people have opinions. then bickering starts. and no one
has the power to stamp there foot down and say this is our direction.
It doesn't work very well. at the least we need a president like
figure. of course I'm not against a supreme dictator as long as they
keep looking forward, and doing good.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Nathan Sullivan]

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I could see that kinda working IMO Caleb...

a president-like figure to run things, elected id say would be best, maybe 1
year terms or something, cannot be overruled but elections can be called
early if some overly high percentage of council/others express concerns
about the person... otherwise their word is final, see that would at least
give things direction, and the person is removable but only with some kinda
concensus among devs... id also think this person should be independent of
groups such as the council/devrel/etc if so...

just my 0.02 :)

Nathan.

On 10/14/06, Caleb Cushing <xenoterracide@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree. what we're seeing is a failure of democracy. at first it
> works. then people have opinions. then bickering starts. and no one
> has the power to stamp there foot down and say this is our direction.
> It doesn't work very well. at the least we need a president like
> figure. of course I'm not against a supreme dictator as long as they
> keep looking forward, and doing good.
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Olivier Fisette]

Hi,

It is time for me to resign as a Gentoo developer. I no longer contribute 
enough to the project to warrant developer status, and that is not likely to 
change anytime soon. With new hobbies and projects in my life, I no longer 
find the free time and motivation combination that used to make me contribute 
to Gentoo on a regular basis.

I wish to thank everyone I had the pleasure to work with. I learned a lot from 
you, and being part of the development team was a great experience. I plan to 
contribute on Bugzilla from time to time, and I might try to come back to 
devhood in the future...

With kind regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier Fisette (ribosome)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Scientific applications

[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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No, not from Gentoo.

After some thought, for personal reasons I resign from devrel.  It's
been enjoyable, and all my best to the devrel team.

Regards,
Ferris
--
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Davide Italiano]

Good luck, dude.

-- 
Davide "dav_it" Italiano
Gentoo Gnu/Linux Developer

[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".

So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of
his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I
fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more
important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately
those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of
course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as
suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal.

I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've
been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position
of QA lead and eroyf  joined them. This can be documented on way too
many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a
good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for
the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm
pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be
concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years,
we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right.

Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
"discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender
in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way
we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could
endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that.

Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
your limbo),

For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry,
no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772
[2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519
[3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm
[4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790
[5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852

--

Jakub Moc
Email: jakub.moc@gmail.com
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Luca Barbato]

Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the
form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2
weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue.

> I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> could ever possibly be to this project.

Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler
and saner way...

Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those
2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair
this treatment had been.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 07:43 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the
> form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2
> weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue.
> 
> > I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> > folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> > could ever possibly be to this project.
> 
> Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler
> and saner way...
> 
> Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those
> 2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair
> this treatment had been.
> 
Jakub,

Luca is exactly right here.  The suspension is meant to be a cooling off
period, not a message that says "please resign".  So please, both for
yourself and for Gentoo, reconsider your resignation and use the two
weeks to cool off, relax, or whatever.  I believe your work is most
important, and I'd hate to lose it over this rather small matter.

If you wish, please contact me privately.  I'll discuss anything you
like.
> lu
> 
> -- 
> 
> Luca Barbato
> 
> Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
> 
Regards,
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Rob C]

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On 17/04/07, Jakub Moc <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.
>
> I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
> folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
> could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
> by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
> devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".
>
> So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of
> his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I
> fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more
> important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately
> those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of
> course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as
> suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal.
>
> I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've
> been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position
> of QA lead and eroyf  joined them. This can be documented on way too
> many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a
> good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for
> the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm
> pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be
> concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years,
> we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right.
>
> Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
> the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
> devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
> if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
> before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
> "discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
> the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
> months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
> devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender
> in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way
> we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could
> endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that.
>
> Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
> address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
> bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
> and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
> you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
> your limbo),
>
> For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry,
> no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
> appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing.
>
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
>
> [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772
> [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519
> [3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm
> [4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790
> [5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852
>
> --
>
> Jakub Moc
> Email: jakub.moc@gmail.com
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
You are one of the most productive devs we have (had...). You've helped me
on more than on occasion.

While I'm sure anybody could build a "the world hates me" case from
selecting a few particular bugzie entries I'm also pretty sure that peoples
personalities will have caused more of an issue here than their actions...

Good luck in the future, enjoy having some free time!

-Rob
-- 
/**
  * Gentoo Linux Developer
  * GPG : 0x2217D168
  */

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Alin Năstac]

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Jakub Moc wrote:
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
Sorry to see you go, man! You were one of the most hard working devs out
there.
Your contribution will not be forgotten.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen]

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On Tuesday 17 April 2007 06:01, Jakub Moc wrote:
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
I'm sad to see you go but I can't say that I don't understand you. It has been 
great having you shove security bugs our way when needed.

Thank you for your work and best of luck with your future endeavours.

-- 
Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen (Jaervosz)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Christopher Sawtell]

On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the 
message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment 
about it?

I don't think I can be receiving all messages posted to this list.

Thanks.

-- 
CS
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 10:28:21PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the 
> message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment 
> about it?
> 
There's no such thing as it's based on general bad behaviour and not
just a single incident.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Raúl Porcel]

Sad to see you go. In my pov you really did a good job.

I hope the ones in charge of bugzilla come with a solution to this.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jeffrey Gardner]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jakub Moc wrote:
> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
big a deal.


- --
Jeffrey Gardner
Gentoo Developer
Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23
hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu
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-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 09:04 -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
> sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
> But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
> remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
> big a deal.
> 
> 
Small correction, just for accuracy's sake:  Suspension is under devrel
policy, not CoC.  Otherwise, I fully agree with your last sentence.

> - --
> Jeffrey Gardner
> Gentoo Developer
> Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23
> hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu
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> =bOk8
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Regards,
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 09:04:39AM -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Jakub Moc wrote:
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get
> sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time.
> But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can
> remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should.
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that
> big a deal.
> 
Ok, I'm going to quote something I wrote on the -core mailing list that
will hopefully help to clear up this misunderstanding about the decision
being based on the new code of conduct.

"Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned CoC at all since it seems to confuse a
few people.

We're not suspending jakub based on CoC but based on a long string of
bad behaviour. That behaviour certainly violates the code of conduct in
many cases but the suspension isn't based on CoC as such but rather the
numerous devrel complaints and warnings he's already received."

In short, the suspension is based on repeated bad behaviour during a
long period of time and despite warning him several times there's been
no improvement in his behaviour. That's why we're calling for a timeout
with this suspension and hoping that jakub will reconsider his
behaviour.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Samuli Suominen]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
"Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:

> So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
them.. 

Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.

- Samuli Suominen
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Peter Weller]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:31:00 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
> "Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any
> > more. I'm therefore resigning from this project.
> 
> I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
> reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
> developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
> the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
> them.. 
> 
> Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.
> 
> - Samuli Suominen

++
/me cries

Even if you do go through with the retirement, you'll still provide me
with milk, right? ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Charlie Shepherd]

On 17/04/07, Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200
> "Jakub Moc" <jakub.moc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So....  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
> > brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
> > I'm therefore resigning from this project.
>
> I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to
> reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain
> developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of
> the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about
> them..
>
> Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done.


I was going to write a reply to this effect but you've written it a
lot better than I ever could. Jakub, I'll miss you.


-- 
-Charlie
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Stefan Schweizer]

To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,

Sunrise is about contributing ebuilds and getting feedback and review while
doing so. The main resource this currently happens for is the Gentoo User
Overlay of Sunrise and second come ebuilds that get into portage afterwards

In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
the overlay:

- we currently have 154 ebuilds in 58 categories in the overlay
  not counting the ebuilds that got into portage and were removed again

- we have 8 developers, 4 trusted committers who have taken the ebuild quiz
  and 26 users committing to the overlay

The basic project concept of creating a social workspace has been reached.
#gentoo-sunrise is an active IRC channel where users usually find help
quickly and it also forms a friendly community.

Best regards,
Stefan

[1]     http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20060720-summary.txt
        http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20060720.txt
Other useful resources:
Project page http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/sunrise/
svn reviewed http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/svn/reviewed/
cia page     http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/sunrise/

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users,

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,
> 
> In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
> no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
> the overlay:

Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer.

Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two
years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll
miss you guys and gals.

I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux
among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there.

I can be reached at henrik@brixandersen.dk should anybody have any
questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the
ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present
hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them.

I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration
howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step
up and finish it.

So long and thank you for all the fish,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Josh Saddler]

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Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users,
> 
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
>> To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,
>>
>> In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
>> no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
>> the overlay:
> 
> Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer.
> 
> Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two
> years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll
> miss you guys and gals.
> 
> I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux
> among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there.
> 
> I can be reached at henrik@brixandersen.dk should anybody have any
> questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the
> ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present
> hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them.
> 
> I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration
> howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step
> up and finish it.
> 
> So long and thank you for all the fish,
> Brix
i'll miss you greatly, brix. You made my laptop and wireless (madwifi) worlds
much much happier places. i'm on devaway, but when I'm back, if no one else has
done it, i'll xmlify your pcmciautils doc -- you were the one who took the time
to explain to me that -utils wouldn't bite this longterm -cs user. :)

good luck in all your future endeavors. hope i see you around irc.
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-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:31:28PM -0700, Josh Saddler wrote:
> i'll miss you greatly, brix. You made my laptop and wireless (madwifi) worlds
> much much happier places. i'm on devaway, but when I'm back, if no one else has
> done it, i'll xmlify your pcmciautils doc -- you were the one who took the time
> to explain to me that -utils wouldn't bite this longterm -cs user. :)

It's already XMLified - it just needs someone to write a few sentences :)

> good luck in all your future endeavors. hope i see you around irc.

Thank you.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Doug Goldstein]

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Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users,
> 
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
>> To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,
>>
>> In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
>> no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
>> the overlay:
> 
> Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer.
> 
> Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two
> years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll
> miss you guys and gals.
> 
> I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux
> among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there.
> 
> I can be reached at henrik@brixandersen.dk should anybody have any
> questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the
> ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present
> hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them.
> 
> I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration
> howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step
> up and finish it.
> 
> So long and thank you for all the fish,
> Brix

Brixy!! You can't leave. Who else will I ramble to on IRC after coming
back from the bars? Who else will fix my wireless adapter?

I feel so cold and alone!!

But seriously, you'll be missed. :(

-- 
Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org>
http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 08:53:00PM -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:
> Brixy!! You can't leave. Who else will I ramble to on IRC after coming
> back from the bars? Who else will fix my wireless adapter?

You can still ramble to me on IRC - it's not like I'm dropping off the
face of the Earth. As for your wireless adapter... if you want me to
help with that you'd have to change your operating system ;)

> I feel so cold and alone!!

Got dumped again, eh? ;)

> But seriously, you'll be missed. :(

Thank you.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Friday 28 July 2006 06:02, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote:
> > Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation
> > to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to.
>
> How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project
> whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial
> project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the
> devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this?

as the thread on gentoo-dev was named:
	sunrise, a temporary compromise
looks to me like most people (rightly) thought of the meeting as resulting in 
a temporary solution

> I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered
> taking Project Sunrise on as an official project.

complete garbage

if you arent reading the e-mails on the gentoo-dev list which were in reply to 
your own postings, then that is simply your own fault ... i was cc-ing you to 
make sure you saw those e-mails, and your reaction was:
PS: There is no need to CC: me on replies. Please use reply-to-list.

> > Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to
> > speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive.
>
> Same as above - had I known

same as above, complete garbage

> that you guys actually intended to revert 
> your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus
> reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to
> raise my concerns.

reverting a temporary suspension ?  what a crazy idea

there were many threads asking for people to look at the latest Sunrise state 
and comment/complain/whatever with no more negative responses ... if 
developers arent posting negative feedback and issues appear to be resolved 
on gentoo-dev, then what else would you expect the Council to do ?
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 17:51:09 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| then what else would you expect the Council to do ?

Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. The
council is, after all, supposed to serve as the last line of defence
against people pushing through bad changes. Council members are
supposed to be able to judge proposals based upon their merits, not the
persistence of those trying to have them pushed through without
following the proper process.

There's no pawning the blame for this one off on arbitrary developers.
Most of them don't have time to keep up with the kind of dirty tricks
being used here.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 30 July 2006 18:07, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently.

hard to address any sort of concerns here, so i guess i'll just regurgitate 
the council log to you

it's hard for users to get involved in our development process ... i imagine 
some consider that a feature, but it leaves a large portion of our community 
out in the cold

sunrise is attempting to fill that gap via some controversial methods ... in 
review, we deemed that the many concerns raised were pretty much addressed 
and any more requests for criticism and useful critiques either went 
unanswered or people piped up saying that they were happy with the latest 
state

i (nor anyone else) cannot say whether this venture will succeed, only time 
will prove out the project ... sitting around and clamoring for more openness 
while killing every attempt at it gets us nowhere

we take a risk with this project (like every single other project) ... if 
sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we kill it, no big deal
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| we take a risk with this project (like every single other
| project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we
| kill it, no big deal

How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
considered to "suck and cause problems"?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Giacomo Cariello]

Roy Bamford wrote:
> Sunrise attempts to provide the next part of the school system down.
A school system should have a well defined syllabus, explicit
educational targets and an objective evaluation system. If Gentoo is
going to run a Gentoo School with courses for developers, that sounds
cool (and may relieve some burden from the developers mentors). Probably
its objectors just want the project to formalize its methods before
official launch.

In regard to the "rule of thumb" you suggest to verify average quality,
I wouldn't consider a reliable way to assess quality. I suppose that
part of responsibility of Gentoo towards their users consist in "using
caution" in their choices. Caution suggest that you cannot suppose the
long-term effects by measuring the current, limited, 150-ebuilds version
of this project. Also, it's better to debate this path now, rather than
wait until we realize Gentoo cannot handle at least minimal safety of a
100000-ebuilds user-contributed overlay used by hundreds/thousands of
people and throw it in the dustbin with a "we said that if it doesn't
work, we kill it" quote. It would be a lack of respect towards the
efforts of users that contributed to it.

- Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.07.31 12:01, Giacomo Cariello wrote:
> Roy Bamford wrote:
> > Sunrise attempts to provide the next part of the school system  
> down. A school system should have a well defined syllabus, explicit
> educational targets and an objective evaluation system. If Gentoo is
> going to run a Gentoo School with courses for developers, that sounds
> cool (and may relieve some burden from the developers mentors).

Agreed.

> Probably its objectors just want the project to formalize its methods  
> before official launch.

Possibly.

> 
> In regard to the "rule of thumb" you suggest to verify average
> quality,
> I wouldn't consider a reliable way to assess quality. I suppose that
> part of responsibility of Gentoo towards their users consist in  
> "using caution" in their choices. Caution suggest that you cannot  
> suppose the long-term effects by measuring the current, limited,  
> 150-ebuilds version of this project.

You can only examine now, what exists now. The long term effects can be  
assessed by repeated examinations, much like holders of ISO 9000 (a  
quality standard) undergo to retain their accreditation.
Going off on a wild tangent for a moment perhaps sunrise and other  
overlays could be accredited by Gentoo using such a system of regular  
and surprise checks.

> Also, it's better to debate this path now, rather
> than wait until we realize Gentoo cannot handle at least minimal  
> safety of a 100000-ebuilds user-contributed overlay used by  
> hundreds/thousands of people and throw it in the dustbin with a "we  
> said that if it doesn't work, we kill it" quote.
This in not a realistic claim - look at the way the official portage  
tree has grown with time and that changes made to cope with that  
growth. Your statement implies that sunrise starts out badly, gets  
worse but nobody notices for a long time. That's simply not realistic.
Sunrise will evolve - like any other OSS project.

I would expect sunrise to spawn both devs and ebuilds and to see the  
more popular ebuilds moved into the official tree as the dev population  
can cope. That's not much different from the present process, where  
ebuilds are in b.g.o. However b.g.o doesn't interactively encourage  
would be devs.

> It would be a lack of respect towards the efforts of users that  
> contributed to it.
Yes it would and it won't happen.

> 
> - Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

Regards,

Roy Bamford

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> | we take a risk with this project (like every single other
> | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we
> | kill it, no big deal
> 
> How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
> considered to "suck and cause problems"?

I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise.  I know of only
one developer who left.  He left in a huff, in an emotional "I'm taking
toys, because I don't like them" way, without actually raising any
issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA.
Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting
place.



-- 
Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a
| starting place.

-!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise]
-!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs
staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK
SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis 

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Brett I. Holcomb]

I am only a user and have been keeping out of this debate but I feel I need to 
at least express my thoughts.  I have been folllowing the Sunrise thread(s) 
since it started.  I have done a couple of ebuilds a long time ago and 
would love to have been able to contribute to Gentoo but due to time 
constraints - not enough of it <G> - I just can't. 

I have been a longtime Gentoo user and have loved it because A) it had no
rpms (I had to write them for Caldera), B).  It allowed me to configure a 
system for me quickly that ran well without bloat C) It was easy to keep 
updated - no hassling with Yast, yum, apt-get, etc. and D). it was 
dependable - you could download the x86 and know it would work with very few 
issues.

However, I am going to be building a new system from scratch and this sunrise 
mess is causing me to revevaluate my choice of distro.  My concerns - first 
for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost 
anything with no QA.  It's a BMG that's offical!  My concern - for users - is 
that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when 
they don't  - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer.

Gentoo provides a means for people to participate on several levels.   They 
can do as I did and do a few ebuild and submit them to bugzilla - if there's 
enough demand then they'll eventually get in portage.  They can also take a 
quiz and do ebuilds on a more official level.  Or they can work to be a 
developer.  All of these paths ensure that we have proper QA and control.

The sunrise people seem bent out of shape that ebuilds sit in bugzilla and 
don't get in the tree.  One comment was that it's discouraging. Well, tough - 
the user who submitted it can get over it and realize that the application 
that is so precious to him is not that wonderful to anyone else.  I did with 
mine - I understood that I did them to accomplish something I needed and I 
put them in bugzilla just in case anyone else had a need but I had no 
expectation of them going into portage.  In fact one of my ebuilds was based 
on another ebuild someone put in portage for the same reason - the author had 
a need, wrote an ebuild and then shared it.  If a user really wants his 
ebuild in portage he'll take the quiz and become a more official part of 
Gentoo - but he will have been tested and checked out.

I administer systems (mainly Windows  but also AIX and LInux - and Linux is my 
main home system!) at my job in IT Operations.  Some of my systems can 
shutdown the business if I mess up.  That's why I do things like run upgrades 
on test systems or use VMware to test out before I turn the changes 
loose.  At home I also need my system to run and work.  I won't be 
downloading Sunrise stuff but I UNDERSTAND the consequences - most users will 
not understand as they figure "It's gentoo so it works".  Look at the 
confusion with ~arch vs arch.  People go with ~arch and then get upset when 
it breaks.   

I know I'm only one user but I'm really disappointed that the Council turned 
sunrise official.  It gives me serious concern a bout Gentoo's reliablity and 
their reputation.

On Sunday July 30 2006 23:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
>
> wrote:
> | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a
> | starting place.
>
> -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise]
> -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs
> staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK
> SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh
> Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk

-- 

Brett I. Holcomb

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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Seemant Kulleen]

OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the
ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay?

If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my
system is running perfectly fine.

Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat...



-- 
Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Brett I. Holcomb]

My concern is beyond me.  As I  stated I know enough about what to expect IF I 
use sunrise.  But many do not and with it becoming official people figure 
it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers.  Gentoo has a reputation as a 
good solid, stable distro.  As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why 
couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG.  Why does it have to be 
official?  Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the 
same.

I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine 
and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on 
my part.



On Sunday July 30 2006 23:42, Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the
> ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay?
>
> If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my
> system is running perfectly fine.
>
> Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat...
>
>
>
> --
> Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
> Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

-- 

Brett I. Holcomb
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
> My concern is beyond me.  As I  stated I know enough about what to expect IF I 
> use sunrise.  But many do not and with it becoming official people figure 
> it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers.  Gentoo has a reputation as a 
> good solid, stable distro.  As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why 
> couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG.  Why does it have to be 
> official?  Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the 
> same.

BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community.  I
always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo
projects and become what Sunrise is today.  The way I read you, your
fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown
number of people.  Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and
re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site
and their commit histories and changesets?  They're not exactly
dawdling.

As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it
characterised that way :)  If it has that reputation, then it will
actually take a lot to break that.  I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't
already break it.   I agree that the official portage tree is a QA
nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date
-- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're
grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the
outset, instead of as an afterthought.

> I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine 
> and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on 
> my part.

It's an exchange of ideas, there shouldn't be hard feelings on anyone's
part.


-- 
Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Christian Andreetta]

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Hash: SHA1

Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
>> My concern is beyond me.  As I  stated I know enough about what to expect IF I 
>> use sunrise.  But many do not and with it becoming official people figure 
>> it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers.  Gentoo has a reputation as a 
>> good solid, stable distro.  As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why 
>> couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG.  Why does it have to be 
>> official?  Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the 
>> same.

It has just to be put clear that in this case "official" doesn't mean
"solid", "right", "tested by our best QA", but simply "preferred". That
is, I think we're not speaking of "official", but "_basically_ revised"
and "encouraged".

Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
have other choices* but

1) an endless wait for an open bug
2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
latest patches/revision bumps?

Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this
"statistically".

> BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community.  I
> always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo
> projects and become what Sunrise is today.  The way I read you, your
> fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown
> number of people.  Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and
> re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site
> and their commit histories and changesets?  They're not exactly
> dawdling.
> 
> As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it
> characterised that way :)  If it has that reputation, then it will
> actually take a lot to break that.  I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't
> already break it.   I agree that the official portage tree is a QA
> nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date
> -- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're
> grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the
> outset, instead of as an afterthought.

I'm just adding another good point to sunrise (or whatever will be a
revised "preferred centralized repo of packages not officially
supported"): you have another way to benefit of retired devs who just
don't have the time to be responsible for the bugs of a package in an
arch they don't know, but have the interest and the competence to add
packages to an unofficial overlay.

I'll be soon one of those devs: maybe some of the packages I maintain
will finish as "maintainer-wanted". And, in this case, they could
eventually end up in the sunrise overlay: a way for the users to help users.


Just my 2 euro c
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote:
> 
> Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
> Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
> have other choices* but
> 
> 1) an endless wait for an open bug
> 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
> 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
> efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
> latest patches/revision bumps?
4) Bash devs to add your ebuild
5) Use proxy maintaining (as been suggested several times)

Proxy maintaining already happens but some people claims not enough
users and devs use this. Personally I'd love to see proxy maintaining
advertised which would probably help proxy maintaining take off and
offer a way for users to (fairly easy) contribute to the tree and be
sure their ebuilds ends up in the tree.

> 
> Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this
> "statistically".
> 
See above. I'd love for more users to end up at 5).

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 31 July 2006 14:53, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote:
> > Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
> > Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
> > have other choices* but
> >
> > 1) an endless wait for an open bug
> > 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
> > 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
> > efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
> > latest patches/revision bumps?
>
> 4) Bash devs to add your ebuild

Which one exactly. The point is that it is not on a dev's turf.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 08:49:31AM +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Monday 31 July 2006 14:53, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote:
> > > Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
> > > Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
> > > have other choices* but
> > >
> > > 1) an endless wait for an open bug
> > > 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
> > > 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
> > > efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
> > > latest patches/revision bumps?
> >
> > 4) Bash devs to add your ebuild
> 
> Which one exactly. The point is that it is not on a dev's turf.
> 
Many ebuilds sitting in bugzie naturally falls under one herd or
another. And if you can't find any developer that should (likely) be
maintaining the ebuild you can always ask in the irc channels geared
towards users (#gentoo-bugs, #gentoo-dev-help, even #gentoo) or ask on
gentoo-dev ML. Lots of ways to get developers attentions imo.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 31 July 2006 13:01, Christian Andreetta wrote:
> Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
> >> My concern is beyond me.  As I  stated I know enough about what to
> >> expect IF I use sunrise.  But many do not and with it becoming official
> >> people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers.  Gentoo has
> >> a reputation as a good solid, stable distro.  As user and big fan of
> >> Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like
> >> BMG.  Why does it have to be official?  Gentoo can choose to do what it
> >> feels is right and I will do the same.
>
> It has just to be put clear that in this case "official" doesn't mean
> "solid", "right", "tested by our best QA", but simply "preferred". That
> is, I think we're not speaking of "official", but "_basically_ revised"
> and "encouraged".

And that's why it has been announced as the best since sliced bred - urging 
all users to give it a try, but with the option to point with the finger on 
them, laughing "Ha, ha, you should have known dumb nuts.", later. Brett is 
absolutely right with his previous emails.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Richard Fish]

On 8/1/06, Carsten Lohrke <carlo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> And that's why it has been announced as the best since sliced bred - urging
> all users to give it a try, but with the option to point with the finger on
> them, laughing "Ha, ha, you should have known dumb nuts.", later. Brett is
> absolutely right with his previous emails.

Nothing that I have read about sunrise, either in GWN, their project
pages, or the FAQ, has given me the impression that they are "urging
all users to give it a try".  There is certainly some advertising
about it, as would be appropriate for any new Gentoo project.  But
nothing that I would say gives the slightest hint of "pushiness".

-Richard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:50, Richard Fish wrote:
> Nothing that I have read about sunrise, either in GWN, their project
> pages, or the FAQ, has given me the impression that they are "urging
> all users to give it a try".  There is certainly some advertising
> about it, as would be appropriate for any new Gentoo project.  But
> nothing that I would say gives the slightest hint of "pushiness".

Well, as long as there's no big fat warning that there's not support, no 
security team backing it up - and that the overlay is not meant for general 
consumption, it's very problematic. On the contrary, it's written down that 
the overlay is meant to make a wide range of ebuilds easily available - 
without any measures to secure its consumers.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Alex Tarkovsky]

On 7/30/06, Brett I. Holcomb <brettholcomb@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to
> submit almost anything with no QA.

This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Every single
user-authored submission made available in the public overlay was
placed there by existing Gentoo developers who've reviewed and
approved them. When you check out Sunrise using layman for instance,
you are getting what's known as the "reviewed" tree, not the tree that
users commit directly to. If these facts still don't assuage your
concerns then don't use the Sunrise overlay -- it's that simple.

I suspect this myth perpetuates because its supporters haven't
actually bothered to review the Sunrise procedures [2] already in
place and in use. Another source of enlightenment which many, if not
all, of the detractors don't seem to have indulged in is dropping by
#gentoo-sunrise and watching the Sunrise process as it happens in
practice. Please do your homework people, otherwise you're just
spreading FUD.

[1] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq
[2] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/HowToCommit
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 "Alex Tarkovsky"
<alextarkovsky@gmail.com> wrote:
| This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
| developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1].

Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?

Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing
QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four
people can?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Joshua Jackson]

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Hash: SHA1

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 "Alex Tarkovsky"
> <alextarkovsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> | This "no QA" accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo
> | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1].
>
> Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list?
>
> Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing
> QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four
> people can?
>
Really now Ciaran, if you have issues with those people. Take it up
with them. You've yet to state a reason why it concerns you. Its no
better then the people who are saying that it'll be a huge QA issue
but they are not elaborating on it. As some are aware and some are
not, the basic job I do for gentoo is a QA one. I help to ensure the
x86 arch tree is hopefully as stable as possible. So if anything this
will affect me directly. I however want to see what the project can
do. If it does end up as a problem then it can be killed off, but
doing so before it has a chance to fly is part of what has been
keeping us from innovating as a distribution. It means we're maturing,
but we are still a community project and as such should be allowed to
fly with possibly wild idea's when it suits us.

As well, we are all human, as you are Ciaran. This means that we make
mistakes. However, what you are also asking is to NOT trust those
people who are qualified to be part of gentoo to be able to do the
work and perform it in a decent way. I will not begin to doubt any of
the people who have the gentoo flag as part of who they are because of
being human. As has been said as well, we learn more from the mistakes
we make then somehow having avoided it without realizing why.

Thirdly, I know one of the issues with one of the leaders of the
project, is the fact that they are not a ebuild developer. I'd like to
have them take the second quiz simply to prove that they have the
knowledge to be trusted to review the ebuilds. Course with the number
that he's seen I'm sure he's helped take care of things that would
make the rest of us go...how did they think that was ever a good idea.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Denis Dupeyron]

On 7/31/06, Joshua Jackson <tsunam@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Thirdly, I know one of the issues with one of the leaders of the
> project, is the fact that they are not a ebuild developer. I'd like to
> have them take the second quiz simply to prove that they have the
> knowledge to be trusted to review the ebuilds. Course with the number
> that he's seen I'm sure he's helped take care of things that would
> make the rest of us go...how did they think that was ever a good idea.

What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project
volunteered to join it ? It could add some credibility to it and
reduce the number of reasons that some people could shout about. I'm
concerned that those against sunrise will claim that passing the end
quizz doesn't give the sunrise leaders any more experience and
credibility overnight.

Denis.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:08:12 +0200 "Denis Dupeyron"
<calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
| What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project
| volunteered to join it ?

Get a half dozen and I suspect a lot of the concern will be reduced
substantially...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 10:50:31PM -0400, Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> > wrote:
> > | we take a risk with this project (like every single other
> > | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we
> > | kill it, no big deal
> > 
> > How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
> > considered to "suck and cause problems"?
> 
> I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise.  I know of only
> one developer who left.  He left in a huff, in an emotional "I'm taking
> toys, because I don't like them" way, without actually raising any
> issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA.
> Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting
> place.
> 
Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the
reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council
there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and
jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two
other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus).

At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were
and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that
sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were
solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on
this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the
goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people
uneasy with the current sunrise project).

Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the
council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I
haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting.

I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he
purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's
not really my point either.

*This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project
with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not
the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the
problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him
by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no
further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to
leave the project.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard

PS. Sorry genstef about picking at you but I don't know how you managed
to forget everything that was agreed upon on our meeting.

"21:56 <@Koon> Have all the reasonable objections been addressed ?
21:56 <@Koon> because you'll never satisfy those who want it dead anyway
21:56 <+genstef> I hope so. If you can point something more out to me I
would love to hear it" <- our meeting ended up with some concerns that
you even agreed to yourself by keeping sunrise unofficial.

[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

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Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
> Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the
> reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council
> there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and
> jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two
> other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus).
> 
> At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were
> and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that
> sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were
> solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on
> this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the
> goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people
> uneasy with the current sunrise project).
> 
> Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the
> council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I
> haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting.
> 
> I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he
> purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's
> not really my point either.
> 
> *This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project
> with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not
> the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the
> problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him
> by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no
> further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to
> leave the project.

Well, huh??? Looks like you've missed the -dev ML thread altogether, as
did brix (despite it was himself who started it, as Mike has already
pointed out). Brix didn't write any proposal and didn't raise any
specific objections when called for, then he goes to leave b/c the
project has been unsuspended? Sorry, I really fail to see how is this
council's fault (or any Sunrise project member's fault for that matter).


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 11:21:17AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
> Well, huh??? Looks like you've missed the -dev ML thread altogether, as
> did brix (despite it was himself who started it, as Mike has already
> pointed out). Brix didn't write any proposal and didn't raise any
> specific objections when called for, then he goes to leave b/c the
> project has been unsuspended? Sorry, I really fail to see how is this
> council's fault (or any Sunrise project member's fault for that matter).
> 
Issues had been raised again and again and all involved parties had
agreed on several issues still not being fixed. At this point I must say
that I no longer care one way or another about Sunrise - it doesn't seem
to make any difference anyway.

But what I wanted to say was that I certainly understand Brix decision
to leave the project. No matter if you think Sunrise is a great idea or
not, I don't think anybody can say that it's been handled in a proper
way.

That's my opinion anyway and from talking to brix about all this I
believe his biggest reason for leaving have been the way Sunrise have
been forced through despite the many complaints raised (and still not
fixed).

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

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Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
 > That's my opinion anyway and from talking to brix about all this I
> believe his biggest reason for leaving have been the way Sunrise have
> been forced through despite the many complaints raised (and still not
> fixed).
> 
> Regards,
> Bryan ?stergaard

Well, such as? That "Oh, it's a horrible idea that will become a QA
nightmare, Sunrise needs to die" that I keep hearing over and over again
is not something that can be addressed, sorry - only time will tell.
Beyond that, I can't see any new *specific* objections raised that
actually *could* be addressed. Neither in the previous thread, nor in
the current one.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jory A. Pratt]

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Hash: SHA1

As most are aware I was only active dev in mozilla herd. I have decided
that it is time to leave gentoo, which leaves herd unmaintained.
Security team can do as they wish, they do not take the user to mind
when they want to make hasty decision, without first attempting to work
the herd to resolve a security issue that is in the tree. Our users have
depreciated over the last year due to devs and just the direction gentoo
has decided to go so I make the move with them.

Good luck to everyone and were ever there ventures might take them..

Later
Jory

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Joshua Jackson]

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Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, Im gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Resignation

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Brian Harring wrote:
> Hola all.
> 
> Been an interesting two some years, but have decided it's time for me 
> to turn in my resignation and wander on to things outside of gentoo.
> 
> If you need to track me down, I'll be checking ferringb@gmail.com .
> 
> So... yeah, so long and thanks for all the fish :)

Best of luck in your future endeavors. Don't think this gets you out of
hanging out with me while you're in Oregon!

Now you only need to find something to do with all the spare time you've
just freed up ...

Thanks,
Donnie



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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Resignation

[Duncan]

Donnie Berkholz posted <44056E87.2080202@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Wed, 01 Mar 2006 01:51:03 -0800:

> Brian Harring wrote:
>> 
>> Been an interesting two some years, but have decided it's time for me 
>> to turn in my resignation and wander on to things outside of gentoo.
>> 
>> If you need to track me down, I'll be checking ferringb@gmail.com .
>> 
>> So... yeah, so long and thanks for all the fish :)
> 
> Best of luck in your future endeavors. Don't think this gets you out of
> hanging out with me while you're in Oregon!

Seeing this news makes me very sad, as ferringb was a name I had
associated with trust and integrity of opinion and developer skills. 
It's certainly a loss for Gentoo, and as Gentoo is now a part of me, a
loss I'll feel personally, as well, but unfortunately, those times do come.

As with Donnie and the others, only user to dev, I wish you well.  May our
paths meet again!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Resignation

[Colin Kingsley]

Duncan wrote:
> Seeing this news makes me very sad, as ferringb was a name I had
> associated with trust and integrity of opinion and developer skills. 
> It's certainly a loss for Gentoo, and as Gentoo is now a part of me, a
> loss I'll feel personally, as well, but unfortunately, those times do come.
> 
> As with Donnie and the others, only user to dev, I wish you well.  May our
> paths meet again!
> 

Wow, Duncan is so sad he only wrote one paragraph!  Seriously man, you 
will be missed.

Colin
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jochen Maes]

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Brian,

you'll be missed... can you at least pop by once and i while? always 
enjoyed humping you...
/me 's list off biatchus is reducing...

good luck in the future mate, may you conquer your fears and reach your 
dreams... don't forget "Ne humanus crede"

-- 
"Defer no time, delays have dangerous ends"
"Ne humanus crede"

Jochen Maes                     
Gentoo Linux
Gentoo Belgium
http://sejo.be
http://gentoo.be
http://gentoo.org


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