[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically the
2nd Thursday once a month), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @
irc.freenode.net) !

If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.

Keep in mind that every *re*submission to the council for review must
first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum) before
being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days before the
meeting.  Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be notified at
least 14 days before the meeting itself.

For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stephen Bennett]

On 01 Jul 2006 07:34:49
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> Gentoo dev list to see.

GLEP 42. Noone on the list raised any objections last time it was sent
out, so I'd like to send it off to the Council, so to speak.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP42 for Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Saturday 01 July 2006 08:10, Stephen Bennett wrote:
> On 01 Jul 2006 07:34:49
>
> Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> > vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> > Gentoo dev list to see.
>
> GLEP 42. Noone on the list raised any objections last time it was sent
> out, so I'd like to send it off to the Council, so to speak.

can we make sure we get some peeps from the portage team to show up
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Hi,

Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still lacking.

Thanks,
Stefan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:23 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
> feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still lacking.

What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?  It is not an official
project anymore, so the council really has no bearing on it.  I'm
guessing you would like for it to become an official project.  If I were
asked, some of the things I would bring up are:

What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?

I think you fail to see that for something like Sunrise to prove itself
as a viable Gentoo project, it has to actually accomplish some of its
stated goals.

That being said, if the council wants to discuss it, they're more than
welcome to.  I just personally feel it wouldn't be time well spent.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?
Evaluating our progress with hashing out the details etc.

> It is not an official 
> project anymore, so the council really has no bearing on it.  I'm
> guessing you would like for it to become an official project.
correct.

> If I were 
> asked, some of the things I would bring up are:

> What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?
- We have formed a #gentoo-sunrise channel with an atmosphere of help and
friendliness
- We are teaching many people how to write ebuilds correctly and how to use
repoman to check for QA problems, etc.

> What new packages 
> are now in the tree because of it?
For example I have added a fix for ftpd and libvc to the tree. I also bumped
media-video/dvd-slideshow. Markus Ullman added net-analyzer/wireshark from
a sunrise contributor, drchandra, to portage.

> What new developers have been 
> recruited because of it?
Recruiting is a long-term goal. We already have a two people that have done
the ebuild quiz, one other is working on it. It is like release work: they
will be released as developers when they are ready. I do not
want "alpha-developers" on the tree. And no, we will not reveal the release
date ;)

> What packages that were previously without 
> maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
I mentioned a few packages above where I fixed bugs because of sunrise
people, that does not mean they found maintainers, but people care about it
and I can commit their fixes if needed.

> I think you fail to see that for something like Sunrise to prove itself
> as a viable Gentoo project, it has to actually accomplish some of its
> stated goals.
Looking up the "stated goals" in the cvs log:
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/sunrise/index.xml?hideattic=0&view=markup
> encourage users to write ebuilds
> find new recruits
> make maintainer-wanted ebuild access and development easier
> work with users on new ebuilds and explain them what they can do better
We have only found potential recruits but at least those four have been
reached.

> That being said, if the council wants to discuss it, they're more than
> welcome to.  I just personally feel it wouldn't be time well spent.
Not discussing is not a solution either. The last userrel-meeting about
sunrise was very successfull. If you want we can make another meeting and
talk about it together before the council meeting? I would love that, to
hear some more about your ideas for the "stated goals" of Sunrise and get
issues sorted out without (perceivedly) offensive mails on the developer
mailing list.

Best regards,
Stefan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 02 July 2006 10:10, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:23 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
> > feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still
> > lacking.
>
> What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?

the answer to this is really quite obvious

> What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?

why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a project 
for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been given real time 
yet to actually accomplish them
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> 
> why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a project 
> for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been given real time 
> yet to actually accomplish them

Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
there to discuss?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 08:06, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> >
> > why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a
> > project for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been
> > given real time yet to actually accomplish them
>
> Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
> discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
> hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
> there to discuss?

the project was suspended because developers were severely unhappy with it

the issues are whether said developers feel all of their grievances have been 
addressed ... so far it would appear so

debating whether the project has/is will accomplish things is out of scope/off 
topic
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 08:30:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 08:06, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > > > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > > > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > > > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> > >
> > > why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a
> > > project for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been
> > > given real time yet to actually accomplish them
> >
> > Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
> > discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
> > hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
> > there to discuss?
> 
> the project was suspended because developers were severely unhappy with it
> 
> the issues are whether said developers feel all of their grievances have been 
> addressed ... so far it would appear so
> 
> debating whether the project has/is will accomplish things is out of scope/off 
> topic
> -mike

No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
official capacity. This should be clear from the meeting [1] that was
held between sunrise (jokey and genstef), userrel (represented by
christel), brix and myself.

Instead brix suggested a different solution to the problem, namely a
"proxy maintainer" project that everybody seemed to be happy about at
the meeting. However, while brix sees the proxy maintainer project as a
replacement for the current sunrise project jokey and genstef sees it as
a welcome addition.

In any case it's not true that everybody is happy with sunrise yet.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard

1. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 09:50, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
> official capacity.

then he needs to voice his concerns

we've had a few threads calling for people to list their problems so they can 
be addressed and i dont recall anyone piping up that hasnt been addressed
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 02:43:32PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 09:50, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> > No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
> > official capacity.
> 
> then he needs to voice his concerns
> 
> we've had a few threads calling for people to list their problems so they can 
> be addressed and i dont recall anyone piping up that hasnt been addressed

I have no problem with Project Sunrise being an unofficial project,
which is why I haven't responded to those mails.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 14:47, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> I have no problem with Project Sunrise being an unofficial project,
> which is why I haven't responded to those mails.

the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns to that 
sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
> to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo

Really? According to who?

We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
project.

Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

Regards,
Brix

PS: There is no need to CC: me on replies. Please use reply-to-list.
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
> > to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
>
> Really? According to who?

presumably the Sunrise guys considering they started the thread

> We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
> Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
> project.

Stefan would have to comment on this then

> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

maybe, but ignoring constant requests for feedback isnt helping anyone
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> > the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
>> > to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
>>
>> Really? According to who?
> 
> presumably the Sunrise guys considering they started the thread
> 
Yeah, this is right. Sunrise is meant to be Gentoo.

>> We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
>> Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
>> project.
> 
> Stefan would have to comment on this then
> 
Yeah, we got frequent problems with offical/unofficial/suspended or not so
much suspended. Consequently to sort out this issue we came to the
conclusion to make it fully unofficial in the meeting. It works this way
but it is not how I wish Sunrise to operate. It needs to have approval and
that is why we discuss Sunrise and improve it constantly.

>> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
>> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.
> 
> maybe, but ignoring constant requests for feedback isnt helping anyone
> -mike

Agreed, and waiting does not help Sunrise either.

Best regards,
Stefan

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[gentoo-dev] open Sunrise concerns

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

so are you going to offer up some of your complaints so they can be 
addressed ?  the sunrise guys have pretty clearly stated their intentions
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Saturday 01 July 2006 03:34, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically the
> 2nd Thursday once a month), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @
> irc.freenode.net) !

we're pushing this to the 3rd due to it being a better time for some of us 
(blame me :P)
-mike

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