[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically the
2nd Thursday once a month), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @
irc.freenode.net) !

If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.

Keep in mind that every *re*submission to the council for review must
first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum) before
being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days before the
meeting.  Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be notified at
least 14 days before the meeting itself.

For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stephen Bennett]

On 01 Jul 2006 07:34:49
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> Gentoo dev list to see.

GLEP 42. Noone on the list raised any objections last time it was sent
out, so I'd like to send it off to the Council, so to speak.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP42 for Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Saturday 01 July 2006 08:10, Stephen Bennett wrote:
> On 01 Jul 2006 07:34:49
>
> Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> > vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> > Gentoo dev list to see.
>
> GLEP 42. Noone on the list raised any objections last time it was sent
> out, so I'd like to send it off to the Council, so to speak.

can we make sure we get some peeps from the portage team to show up
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Hi,

Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still lacking.

Thanks,
Stefan

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:23 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
> feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still lacking.

What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?  It is not an official
project anymore, so the council really has no bearing on it.  I'm
guessing you would like for it to become an official project.  If I were
asked, some of the things I would bring up are:

What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?

I think you fail to see that for something like Sunrise to prove itself
as a viable Gentoo project, it has to actually accomplish some of its
stated goals.

That being said, if the council wants to discuss it, they're more than
welcome to.  I just personally feel it wouldn't be time well spent.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?
Evaluating our progress with hashing out the details etc.

> It is not an official 
> project anymore, so the council really has no bearing on it.  I'm
> guessing you would like for it to become an official project.
correct.

> If I were 
> asked, some of the things I would bring up are:

> What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?
- We have formed a #gentoo-sunrise channel with an atmosphere of help and
friendliness
- We are teaching many people how to write ebuilds correctly and how to use
repoman to check for QA problems, etc.

> What new packages 
> are now in the tree because of it?
For example I have added a fix for ftpd and libvc to the tree. I also bumped
media-video/dvd-slideshow. Markus Ullman added net-analyzer/wireshark from
a sunrise contributor, drchandra, to portage.

> What new developers have been 
> recruited because of it?
Recruiting is a long-term goal. We already have a two people that have done
the ebuild quiz, one other is working on it. It is like release work: they
will be released as developers when they are ready. I do not
want "alpha-developers" on the tree. And no, we will not reveal the release
date ;)

> What packages that were previously without 
> maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
I mentioned a few packages above where I fixed bugs because of sunrise
people, that does not mean they found maintainers, but people care about it
and I can commit their fixes if needed.

> I think you fail to see that for something like Sunrise to prove itself
> as a viable Gentoo project, it has to actually accomplish some of its
> stated goals.
Looking up the "stated goals" in the cvs log:
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/sunrise/index.xml?hideattic=0&view=markup
> encourage users to write ebuilds
> find new recruits
> make maintainer-wanted ebuild access and development easier
> work with users on new ebuilds and explain them what they can do better
We have only found potential recruits but at least those four have been
reached.

> That being said, if the council wants to discuss it, they're more than
> welcome to.  I just personally feel it wouldn't be time well spent.
Not discussing is not a solution either. The last userrel-meeting about
sunrise was very successfull. If you want we can make another meeting and
talk about it together before the council meeting? I would love that, to
hear some more about your ideas for the "stated goals" of Sunrise and get
issues sorted out without (perceivedly) offensive mails on the developer
mailing list.

Best regards,
Stefan

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 02 July 2006 10:10, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-07-01 at 19:23 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > Can we have another Sunrise discussion please? I would love to have some
> > feedback about Sunrise, about our progress and where we are still
> > lacking.
>
> What exactly is there to "discuss" about this?

the answer to this is really quite obvious

> What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?

why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a project 
for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been given real time 
yet to actually accomplish them
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> 
> why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a project 
> for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been given real time 
> yet to actually accomplish them

Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
there to discuss?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 08:06, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> >
> > why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a
> > project for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been
> > given real time yet to actually accomplish them
>
> Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
> discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
> hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
> there to discuss?

the project was suspended because developers were severely unhappy with it

the issues are whether said developers feel all of their grievances have been 
addressed ... so far it would appear so

debating whether the project has/is will accomplish things is out of scope/off 
topic
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 08:30:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 08:06, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 15:26 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > > What has the existence of Sunrise done for Gentoo?  What new packages
> > > > are now in the tree because of it?  What new developers have been
> > > > recruited because of it?  What packages that were previously without
> > > > maintainers in the tree have found maintainers due to Sunrise?
> > >
> > > why do any of these matter at this point of time ?  you cant kill a
> > > project for failing to accomplish any of its goals when it hasnt been
> > > given real time yet to actually accomplish them
> >
> > Nor was I trying to in any way.  Instead, I don't see any point in
> > discussing something that still needs time to mature.  The project
> > hasn't been around long enough to accomplish anything, so again, what is
> > there to discuss?
> 
> the project was suspended because developers were severely unhappy with it
> 
> the issues are whether said developers feel all of their grievances have been 
> addressed ... so far it would appear so
> 
> debating whether the project has/is will accomplish things is out of scope/off 
> topic
> -mike

No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
official capacity. This should be clear from the meeting [1] that was
held between sunrise (jokey and genstef), userrel (represented by
christel), brix and myself.

Instead brix suggested a different solution to the problem, namely a
"proxy maintainer" project that everybody seemed to be happy about at
the meeting. However, while brix sees the proxy maintainer project as a
replacement for the current sunrise project jokey and genstef sees it as
a welcome addition.

In any case it's not true that everybody is happy with sunrise yet.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard

1. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 09:50, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
> official capacity.

then he needs to voice his concerns

we've had a few threads calling for people to list their problems so they can 
be addressed and i dont recall anyone piping up that hasnt been addressed
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 02:43:32PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 09:50, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> > No, brix is certainly not happy with a overlay like sunrise in any
> > official capacity.
> 
> then he needs to voice his concerns
> 
> we've had a few threads calling for people to list their problems so they can 
> be addressed and i dont recall anyone piping up that hasnt been addressed

I have no problem with Project Sunrise being an unofficial project,
which is why I haven't responded to those mails.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 14:47, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> I have no problem with Project Sunrise being an unofficial project,
> which is why I haven't responded to those mails.

the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns to that 
sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
> to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo

Really? According to who?

We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
project.

Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

Regards,
Brix

PS: There is no need to CC: me on replies. Please use reply-to-list.
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
> > to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
>
> Really? According to who?

presumably the Sunrise guys considering they started the thread

> We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
> Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
> project.

Stefan would have to comment on this then

> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

maybe, but ignoring constant requests for feedback isnt helping anyone
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Stefan Schweizer]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 03, 2006 at 03:04:55PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> > the entire point of these threads is to address developer concerns
>> > to that sunrise can be folded back into Gentoo
>>
>> Really? According to who?
> 
> presumably the Sunrise guys considering they started the thread
> 
Yeah, this is right. Sunrise is meant to be Gentoo.

>> We only just had the userrel + sunrise meeting where the people behind
>> Project Sunrise said they would continue the project as an unofficial
>> project.
> 
> Stefan would have to comment on this then
> 
Yeah, we got frequent problems with offical/unofficial/suspended or not so
much suspended. Consequently to sort out this issue we came to the
conclusion to make it fully unofficial in the meeting. It works this way
but it is not how I wish Sunrise to operate. It needs to have approval and
that is why we discuss Sunrise and improve it constantly.

>> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
>> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.
> 
> maybe, but ignoring constant requests for feedback isnt helping anyone
> -mike

Agreed, and waiting does not help Sunrise either.

Best regards,
Stefan

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] open Sunrise concerns

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 03 July 2006 15:41, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> Even if they have changed their minds about this, I think it is too
> early to re-evaluate the project for inclusion.

so are you going to offer up some of your complaints so they can be 
addressed ?  the sunrise guys have pretty clearly stated their intentions
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Saturday 01 July 2006 03:34, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically the
> 2nd Thursday once a month), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @
> irc.freenode.net) !

we're pushing this to the 3rd due to it being a better time for some of us 
(blame me :P)
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically
the 2nd Thursday at 2000 UTC / 1600 EST), same bat channel
(#gentoo-council @ irc.freenode.net) !

If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.

Keep in mind that every GLEP *re*submission to the council for review
must first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum)
before being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days
before the meeting.  Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be
notified at least 14 days before the meeting itself.

For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 05:30 +0000, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically
> the 2nd Thursday at 2000 UTC / 1600 EST), same bat channel
> (#gentoo-council @ irc.freenode.net) !
> 
> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> Gentoo dev list to see.
> 

This is delicate.  I have asked for two items on the agenda for the next
meeting, but so far they are on mail aliases only.  I can post them
here, and I want them public.  Please advise.

> Keep in mind that every GLEP *re*submission to the council for review
> must first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum)
> before being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days
> before the meeting.  Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be
> notified at least 14 days before the meeting itself.
> 
> For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/

Regards,
Ferris
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis]

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2008-07-01 07:30:01 Mike Frysinger napisał(a):
> This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically
> the 2nd Thursday at 2000 UTC / 1600 EST), same bat channel
> (#gentoo-council @ irc.freenode.net) !
> 
> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> Gentoo dev list to see.

Please vote on my proposition of default LDFLAGS if they aren't introduced
until Council meeting.

-- 
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> Gentoo dev list to see.

Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's 
unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an 
agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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People who need to take action
==============================
Non-council members who need to do something.

araujo [Document of being an active developer]
vapier [Slacker arches]
antarus [as-needed by default]
cardoe [GLEP 56]
fmccor [Extent of Code of Conduct enforcement]


Updates to last month's topics
==============================

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20080612-summary.txt


Document of being an active developer
-------------------------------------
Requested attendees: araujo

Preparation: araujo needs to post progress, an updated certificate and 
any new requests to the gentoo-council or gentoo-project list 4+ hours 
before the meeting.

Goal: Suggest changes. This should happen on-list. No discussion 
expected.


Slacker arches
--------------
Preparation: vapier needs to send the post 4+ hours before the meeting. 
(Mike, is this ever going to happen?)

Goal: Suggest changes. This should happen on-list. No discussion 
expected.


Can the council help fewer bugs get ignored by arm/sh/s390 teams? 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Preparation: Someone on an undermanned arch team needs to describe their 
workflow on-list 4+ hours before the meeting. Any volunteers?

Goal: Suggest changes. This should happen on-list. No discussion 
expected.


New topics
==========

Appeals of spb, rbrown, & philantrop
------------------------------------
Preparation: Reach decisions.

Goal: Announce decisions no later than July 10 via personal emails and 
on-list to avoid disrupting the meeting.


Meeting frequency & time
------------------------
Do we want biweekly meetings that last one hour each?

Here are the time slots we found using whenisgood.net:
	2000-2100 UTC Thursday
	1600-1800 UTC Sunday (conflicts: flameeyes, jokey)

Preparation: Respond to the ongoing thread regarding your opinion on 
biweekly meetings.

Goal: Vote on time & frequency on the council alias no later than July 
10.


as-needed by default
--------------------
antarus requested that we vote on whether to add it to the default 
LDFLAGS.

Preparation: Antarus will post a deployment plan to -dev for discussion. 
We can vote on it on -council as soon as it solidifies. (Alec, please do 
this by July 17.)

Goal: Status check with antarus.


GLEP 54
-------
Preparation: Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "A few 
questions to our nominees" 4+ hours before the meeting.

Last month: 
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_c6e4ba8293f50c1e0444e67d59cf85ea.xml
	lu_zero: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_05614741b3942bfdfb21fd8ebb7955e0.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
no later than July 17.


GLEP 55
-------
Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "GLEP 55" 4+ hours 
before the meeting.

Last month:
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_c6e4ba8293f50c1e0444e67d59cf85ea.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
once we're ready.


GLEP 56
-------
Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "[GLEP56] USE flag 
descriptions in metadata" 4+ hours before the meeting. (Cardoe: Did the 
requested updates ever get made?)

Last month:
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_54ee20d2b1d8122370afdd4b3d7aafc9.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
no later than July 17, if requested changes are made.


User Relations authority
------------------------
Ferris asks: Does userrel have the authority to enforce the Code of 
Conduct on users in the same way devrel does for developers?

Preparation: Donnie will start a thread on the -council list. Post your 
opinion there. If everyone's posted in advance of the meeting, status 
check at meeting to see who's ready to vote.

Goal: Reach a decision on-list no later than July 17.


Extent of Code of Conduct enforcement 
-------------------------------------
Ferris asks: Can people be entirely banned from Gentoo (mailing lists, 
IRC channels, etc.)? Who can do it, how's it work, under whose 
authority? Are there any prerequisites? He cites the corner case of 
refusal to accept a security patch.

Ferris, I couldn't make enough sense out of your long email to council@ 
to summarize any more of it reasonably, sorry. Please send a response to 
this that succinctly clarifies any part of your agenda proposals that I 
got wrong.

Preparation: Clarification from Ferris. After that, Donnie will start a 
thread on the -council list. Post your opinion there.

Goal: Reach a decision on-list no later than July 17.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis]

2008-07-09 10:40 Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
>> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
>> Gentoo dev list to see.
>
> Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's
> unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an
> agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.

You forgot about voting on adding some flags to default LDFLAGS.
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57163/focus=57193
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57092/focus=57169

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 01:40 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> > vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> > Gentoo dev list to see.
> 
> Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's 
> unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an 
> agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.

I'll try to clarify my second agenda item on an absolute ban.  Also I
might edit my private request to make it pure vanilla and send it out,
too, so that people may cross check my summary if they wish.  If people
want that, please respond saying so.

1.  Your summary in the agenda is a fair reading of my request.
However, I don't think it's realistic to expect a decision within a week
because I think instituting a policy and procedure allowing a complete
ban forever from Gentoo requires at the least a change to the Code of
Conduct and a review cycle for that.

2.  I can't spell out exactly what people are thinking of when
discussing absolute bans, because I get the sense that different people
have different ideas about just what we would mean by that.  So I think
the first step is for someone who advocates such a procedure needs to
spell out exactly what it would be and why we would do it and under
whose authority, etc.  As probably everyone knows, I am absolutely
opposed to any such thing, so I am not the person to do this.

3.  So, I don't think we can reach a decision on anything until we are
all clear on what we are deciding on.

4.  Here's what I think is meant by a complete ban.  *These are only my
own inferences from reading between the lines and trying to put
different comments together in some coherent fashion.*
     Under some rather unclear conditions, some combination of
     devrel/userrel/trustees/infra could decide to impose a complete,
     permanent ban on a member (user or, I suppose developer) of our
     community.  This would have the following effects:
       a.  The person could post to no gentoo mailing list;
       b.  The person could not post to gentoo bugzilla;
       c.  The person could not participate in #gentoo- IRC
            channels (although this runs into conflict with individual
            channel policy);
       d.   The person could not contribute to gentoo (hence my corner
            case of a security fix) except perhaps through a proxy;
       e.   (Perhaps any upstream projects in which the person banned
            would be notified of the ban??? --- I'm not sure).
Right now, I don't know anymore if what I just described is what is
being proposed or not.

5.  I am told that nothing is forever, and that if whatever problems
triggered such a ban were corrected, the ban might be lifted.  I note,
however, that since the banned person could not participate in Gentoo
things, as a practical matter we'd never know if anything was corrected
or not.  (Except through 3rd parties.)

6.  Presumably, all of this would be done in secret and whoever is being
hit by such a ban would have no opportunity to respond before the ban's
imposition.  I suppose there would be a right to appeal to council,
assuming council took no part in deciding on the ban.

7.  [Argument] I view this as a pretty major change in how Gentoo
operates.  So someone needs to clarify my inferences in paragraph 4, and
then we should think very carefully about it before allowing for any
such practice.

8.  [Argument]  I note that we are likely to institute some form of
possible moderation for the gentoo-dev mailing list (presumably based on
Code of Conduct violations), and if we do that, it effectively satisfies
the intent of any absolute ban, but is not nearly so traumatic to the
system.  I note that this is a minority view among those who have
discussed this.

Donnie,
  I don't know if that clarifies anything or just makes things more
confusing.  It's the best I can come up with.

Regards,
Ferris
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 13:07 Wed 09 Jul     , Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> You forgot about voting on adding some flags to default LDFLAGS.
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57163/focus=57193
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57092/focus=57169

There was no real debate about that (the only question was where), and 
Cardoe said this morning that he was just going to commit it. If people 
had any problems, they would've posted them to the thread.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Doug Goldstein]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 13:07 Wed 09 Jul     , Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>   
>> You forgot about voting on adding some flags to default LDFLAGS.
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57163/focus=57193
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/57092/focus=57169
>>     
>
> There was no real debate about that (the only question was where), and 
> Cardoe said this morning that he was just going to commit it. If people 
> had any problems, they would've posted them to the thread.
>
>   
Yep. I actually gave everyone a little bit longer to protest. It seemed 
like everyone was in favor of this move but no one made the commit. It 
now exists in profiles/default/linux/make.defaults. I created a tracker 
for any issues that crop up. [1]

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=231310
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 01:40 Wed 09 Jul     , Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
> > vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
> > Gentoo dev list to see.
> 
> Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's 
> unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an 
> agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.

Here are the items that will actually come up during the meeting instead 
of the overall list of ongoing things including list discussions.

Council members: Remember to post to the GLEP threads if you have 
anything new to say.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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as-needed by default
--------------------
antarus requested that we vote on whether to add it to the default 
LDFLAGS.

Preparation: Antarus will post a deployment plan to -dev for discussion. 
We can vote on it on -council as soon as it solidifies. (Alec, please do 
this by July 17.)

Goal: Status check with antarus.


GLEP 54
-------
Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "A few questions to 
our nominees" 4+ hours before the meeting.

Last month: 
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_c6e4ba8293f50c1e0444e67d59cf85ea.xml
	lu_zero: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_05614741b3942bfdfb21fd8ebb7955e0.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
no later than July 17.


GLEP 55
-------
Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "GLEP 55" 4+ hours 
before the meeting.

Last month:
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_c6e4ba8293f50c1e0444e67d59cf85ea.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
once we're ready.


GLEP 56
-------
Preparation: Post your opinion to the -dev thread "[GLEP56] USE flag 
descriptions in metadata" 4+ hours before the meeting. (Cardoe: Did the 
requested updates ever get made?)

Last month:
	dberkholz: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_54ee20d2b1d8122370afdd4b3d7aafc9.xml

Goal: Status check at meeting to see who's ready to vote. Vote on-list 
no later than July 17, if requested changes are made.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Alec Warner]

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 01:40 Wed 09 Jul     , Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
>> > vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
>> > Gentoo dev list to see.
>>
>> Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's
>> unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an
>> agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.
>
> Here are the items that will actually come up during the meeting instead
> of the overall list of ongoing things including list discussions.

Drop me; I haven't written anything for --as-needed.

-Alec

>
> Council members: Remember to post to the GLEP threads if you have
> anything new to say.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Donnie
>
> Donnie Berkholz
> Developer, Gentoo Linux
> Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com
>
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Doug Goldstein]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 01:40 Wed 09 Jul     , Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>   
>> On 05:30 Tue 01 Jul     , Mike Frysinger wrote:
>>     
>>> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
>>> vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
>>> Gentoo dev list to see.
>>>       
>> Here's the proposed agenda. Please respond if I forgot something, it's 
>> unclear, or you have another suggestion. As before, since we have an 
>> agenda in advance we won't be holding an open floor.
>>     
>
> Here are the items that will actually come up during the meeting instead 
> of the overall list of ongoing things including list discussions.
>
> Council members: Remember to post to the GLEP threads if you have 
> anything new to say.
>
>   
[GLEP56]

I've committed the changes that I made as a result of the feedback 
received. You can see the diff [1] or view the full source [2] or see 
the pretty HTML [3].

Quick highlight of changes:

- All PMS references are gone
  - restrict purely refers to the Gentoo Developer Handbook
  - CP/CPV refers to the Gentoo Developer Manual
- Added backwards compatibility section to detail how we're going to 
maintain compatible.
- No reference to default language, leaving that to the Gentoo Developer 
Handbook


[1] 
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/glep/glep-0056.txt?r1=1.1&r2=1.2

[2] 
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/glep/glep-0056.txt?rev=1.2&view=markup

[3] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0056.html
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Here are quick updates on the topics we didn't discuss in detail during 
the council meeting.

On 01:40 Wed 09 Jul     , Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Appeals of spb, rbrown, & philantrop

We are actively discussing the appeals and will get decisions out ASAP.

> Meeting frequency & time

We're moving to shorter biweekly meetings. The next one will be July 24.

> User Relations authority

Discussion is happening on gentoo-council.

> Extent of Code of Conduct enforcement 

I will post this to gentoo-council tomorrow. I haven't had a chance yet 
to put together a useful summary post for starting the thread.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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[gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

This is your monthly friendly reminder !  Same bat time (typically
the 2nd Thursday at 2000 UTC / 1600 EST), same bat channel
(#gentoo-council @ irc.freenode.net) !

If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know !  Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.

Keep in mind that every GLEP *re*submission to the council for review
must first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum)
before being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days
before the meeting.  Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be
notified at least 14 days before the meeting itself.

For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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here's an item that should be relatively quick to address: fix the typo in 
GLEP 39 where this line is missing (it's been in the council homepage 
forever):
	Only Gentoo developers may be nominated

note that previous councils already decided that they are allowed to modify 
GLEP 39 in place with the normal council voting procedure and if they notify 
the mailing lists with exact changes (see 20070208 summary for an example).
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Tobias Scherbaum]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> here's an item that should be relatively quick to address: fix the typo in 
> GLEP 39 where this line is missing (it's been in the council homepage 
> forever):
> 	Only Gentoo developers may be nominated

I'd like to add that requirement for proxies as well. Varied
interpretations of common sense seems to make that necessary.

- Tobias

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for July

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Thursday 02 July 2009 11:02:45 Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > here's an item that should be relatively quick to address: fix the typo
> > in GLEP 39 where this line is missing (it's been in the council homepage
> > forever):
> > 	Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>
> I'd like to add that requirement for proxies as well. Varied
> interpretations of common sense seems to make that necessary.

i'd keep them as sep topics as the first should go through quickly without 
discussion.  the latter i'm not terribly sold on -- the understanding is that 
a council member should have the good sense to only pick an appropriate proxy.  
the definition of "appropriate" is of course up for grabs.  ignoring the 
tools, there is the possibility of bringing non-devs further into the Gentoo 
fold (assuming the proxy is well versed in the topics at hand and not just 
"another body") ...

then again, looking at the 4 year history, this has never happened, so it's 
doubtful it will happen.  guess the proposal is fine.
-mike

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