[gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

Hi List

I'm in two minds about something so I'm asking for input :)

baselayout lets all hotplug events through and gives no control over this, 
whereas we can limit coldplug events via the RC_COLDPLUG variable.
RC_COLDPLUG is currently just a pattern list, but used to be a simple yes|no
I'm wondering if it's a bit messy from the users perspective - would something 
like this be clearer or easier?

RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no"
RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no"
RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"

or

RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"
RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"

The reason I'm asking is that the last baselayout patch I did changed from 
yes|no to a pure list match, RC_COLDPLUG="*" and I'm not sure if I like it or 
not.

Thanks for your thoughts :)

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:13:58AM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no"
> RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no"
> RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"

I like this idea much better than the current implementation in
baselayout-1.12_pre19-r1.

I find it unintuitive that I can currently limit coldplug events but
not hotplug events.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

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On Wednesday 03 May 2006 10:33, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:13:58AM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> > RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no"
> > RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no"
> > RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"
>
> I like this idea much better than the current implementation in
> baselayout-1.12_pre19-r1.
>
> I find it unintuitive that I can currently limit coldplug events but
> not hotplug events.

Attached is a patch to pre19-r1 that does this.

Anything else you'ed like to add?

Thanks

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)

[-- Attachment #2: newcoldplug.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 2903 bytes --]

Index: etc/conf.d/rc
===================================================================
--- etc/conf.d/rc	(revision 2022)
+++ etc/conf.d/rc	(working copy)
@@ -16,16 +16,26 @@
 
 RC_INTERACTIVE="yes"
 
+# Do we allow hotplugging? If not, set to RC_HOTPLUG="no"
+
+RC_HOTPLUG="yes"
+
 # Dynamic /dev managers can trigger coldplug events which cause services to
 # start before we are ready for them. If this happens, we can defer these
-# services to start in the boot runlevel. RC_COLDPLUG is a list of services we
-# allow to be coldplugged in this way. Globbing is allowed as is prefixing
-# with ! which means don't coldplug.
-# Example - RC_COLDPLUG="net.wlan !net.* *"
-# This allows net.wlan and any service not matching net.* to coldplug.
+# services to start in the boot runlevel. Set RC_COLDPLUG="no" if you don't
+# want this.
 
-RC_COLDPLUG="*"
+RC_COLDPLUG="yes"
 
+# Some people want a finer grain over hotplug/coldplug. RC_PLUG_SERVICES is a
+# list of services that are matched in order, either allowing or not. By
+# default we allow services through as RC_COLDPLUG/RC_HOTPLUG has to be yes
+# anyway.
+# Example - RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"
+# This allows net.wlan and any service not matching net.* to be plugged.
+
+RC_PLUG_SERVICES=""
+
 # RC_NET_STRICT_CHECKING allows some flexibility with the 'net' service.
 # The following values are allowed:
 #  none  - The 'net' service is always considered up.
Index: sbin/runscript.sh
===================================================================
--- sbin/runscript.sh	(revision 2023)
+++ sbin/runscript.sh	(working copy)
@@ -27,16 +27,12 @@
 # until after rc sysinit has completed so we punt them to the boot runlevel
 if [[ -e /dev/.rcsysinit ]] ; then
 	eerror "ERROR:  cannot run ${SVCNAME} until sysinit completes"
-	[[ "${RC_COLDPLUG}  " == "!* "* ]] && exit 1
-	if [[ "${RC_COLDPLUG}  " != "* "* ]] ; then
-		cd /etc/init.d
-		shopt -s nullglob extglob
-		for x in ${RC_COLDPLUG} ; do
-			[[ ${SVCNAME} == "${x}" ]] && break
-			[[ "!${SVCNAME}" == "${x}" ]] && exit 1
-		done
-		[[ ${SVCNAME} == "${x}" ]] || exit 1
-	fi
+	[[ ${RC_COLDPLUG:-yes} != "yes" ]] && exit 1
+	set -f
+	for x in ${RC_PLUG_SERVICES} ; do
+		[[ ${SVCNAME} == ${x} ]] && break
+		[[ "!${SVCNAME}" == ${x} ]] && exit 1
+	done
 	eerror "${SVCNAME} will be started in the ${BOOTLEVEL} runlevel"
 	if [[ ! -L /dev/.rcboot/"${SVCNAME}" ]] ; then
 		[[ ! -d /dev/.rcboot ]] && mkdir /dev/.rcboot
@@ -45,6 +41,19 @@
 	exit 1
 fi
 
+# Only hotplug if we're allowed to
+if [[ ${IN_HOTPLUG} == "1" && ${RC_HOTPLUG:-yes} == "yes" ]] ; then
+	set -f
+	for x in ${RC_PLUG_SERVICES} ; do
+		[[ ${SVCNAME} == ${x} ]] && break
+		if [[ "!${SVCNAME}" == ${x} ]] ; then
+			eerror "${SVCNAME} is not allowed to be hotplugged"
+			exit 1
+		fi
+	done
+	set +f
+fi
+
 svc_trap() {
 	trap 'eerror "ERROR:  ${SVCNAME} caught an interrupt"; exit 1' \
 		INT QUIT TSTP

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

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On Wednesday 03 May 2006 11:57, Roy Marples wrote:
> Attached is a patch to pre19-r1 that does this.

Of course, everyone spotted the obvious mistake where RC_HOTPLUG="no" didn't 
work with that patch. This should - heh.


-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)

[-- Attachment #2: newcoldplug.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 2991 bytes --]

Index: etc/conf.d/rc
===================================================================
--- etc/conf.d/rc	(revision 2022)
+++ etc/conf.d/rc	(working copy)
@@ -16,16 +16,26 @@
 
 RC_INTERACTIVE="yes"
 
+# Do we allow hotplugging? If not, set to RC_HOTPLUG="no"
+
+RC_HOTPLUG="yes"
+
 # Dynamic /dev managers can trigger coldplug events which cause services to
 # start before we are ready for them. If this happens, we can defer these
-# services to start in the boot runlevel. RC_COLDPLUG is a list of services we
-# allow to be coldplugged in this way. Globbing is allowed as is prefixing
-# with ! which means don't coldplug.
-# Example - RC_COLDPLUG="net.wlan !net.* *"
-# This allows net.wlan and any service not matching net.* to coldplug.
+# services to start in the boot runlevel. Set RC_COLDPLUG="no" if you don't
+# want this.
 
-RC_COLDPLUG="*"
+RC_COLDPLUG="yes"
 
+# Some people want a finer grain over hotplug/coldplug. RC_PLUG_SERVICES is a
+# list of services that are matched in order, either allowing or not. By
+# default we allow services through as RC_COLDPLUG/RC_HOTPLUG has to be yes
+# anyway.
+# Example - RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"
+# This allows net.wlan and any service not matching net.* to be plugged.
+
+RC_PLUG_SERVICES=""
+
 # RC_NET_STRICT_CHECKING allows some flexibility with the 'net' service.
 # The following values are allowed:
 #  none  - The 'net' service is always considered up.
Index: sbin/runscript.sh
===================================================================
--- sbin/runscript.sh	(revision 2023)
+++ sbin/runscript.sh	(working copy)
@@ -27,16 +27,12 @@
 # until after rc sysinit has completed so we punt them to the boot runlevel
 if [[ -e /dev/.rcsysinit ]] ; then
 	eerror "ERROR:  cannot run ${SVCNAME} until sysinit completes"
-	[[ "${RC_COLDPLUG}  " == "!* "* ]] && exit 1
-	if [[ "${RC_COLDPLUG}  " != "* "* ]] ; then
-		cd /etc/init.d
-		shopt -s nullglob extglob
-		for x in ${RC_COLDPLUG} ; do
-			[[ ${SVCNAME} == "${x}" ]] && break
-			[[ "!${SVCNAME}" == "${x}" ]] && exit 1
-		done
-		[[ ${SVCNAME} == "${x}" ]] || exit 1
-	fi
+	[[ ${RC_COLDPLUG:-yes} != "yes" ]] && exit 1
+	set -f
+	for x in ${RC_PLUG_SERVICES} ; do
+		[[ ${SVCNAME} == ${x} ]] && break
+		[[ "!${SVCNAME}" == ${x} ]] && exit 1
+	done
 	eerror "${SVCNAME} will be started in the ${BOOTLEVEL} runlevel"
 	if [[ ! -L /dev/.rcboot/"${SVCNAME}" ]] ; then
 		[[ ! -d /dev/.rcboot ]] && mkdir /dev/.rcboot
@@ -45,6 +41,24 @@
 	exit 1
 fi
 
+# Only hotplug if we're allowed to
+if [[ ${IN_HOTPLUG} == "1" ]] ; then
+	if [[ ${RC_HOTPLUG:-yes} != "yes" ]] ; then
+		eerror "${SVCNAME} is not allowed to be hotplugged"
+		exit 1
+	fi
+	
+	set -f
+	for x in ${RC_PLUG_SERVICES} ; do
+		[[ ${SVCNAME} == ${x} ]] && break
+		if [[ "!${SVCNAME}" == ${x} ]] ; then
+			eerror "${SVCNAME} is not allowed to be hotplugged"
+			exit 1
+		fi
+	done
+	set +f
+fi
+
 svc_trap() {
 	trap 'eerror "ERROR:  ${SVCNAME} caught an interrupt"; exit 1' \
 		INT QUIT TSTP

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Mike Auty]

I'd prefer,
	The first option (two yes/nos and a list) since it seems cleaner and
more obvious.  The only issue that I could see is where someone might
want a service started by hotplug rather than coldplug or vice-versa.  I
honestly don't know anywhere near enough about the difference (up until
udev starting using it, I'd always thought coldplug was just some random
reimplementation of hotplug by someone outside the kernel).  Anyway, if
there's a legitimate reason why someone might want a service to be
started by one but not the other then this won't work, otherwise I'd
definitely go for it.
	Oh, and I'd like to re-iterate what Duncan said, Roy, your work on
baselayout has made my time on ~x86 bearable.  Whilst other packages may
break, I've never not been able to boot my system.  Thanks!  5:)
	Mike  5:)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Jakub Moc]

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Roy Marples wrote:
> RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no"
> RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no"
> RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"
> 
> or
> 
> RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"
> RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"

I'm afraid I don't get the exact difference :P, but what about honoring
both yes|no and list of services.

Anyway, what we really need is ability to turn off that coldplug thing
*completely* on *udev* level and restore some sanity. I really don't
need to have my TV card coldplugged at the point when /dev is being
populated by devices (e.g.,  Bug 130766 or Bug 128962).

Also I'd like to note that coldplugging network devices in such way may
be a security risk as well, as firewall gets started much later than net
gets started. There's Bug 119613 about this. There was also Bug 78495
about this, got solved on hotplug level, but the latest udev versions
moved the problem to coldplug level instead (even worse IMHO).

Last point - there's also that hotplug_$iface="no" thing in
/etc/conf.d/net - wouldn't it be better to all keep network-related
settings in one place? I.e., adding coldplug_$iface="yes|no" there
instead, and use RC_{HOTPLUG,COLDPLUG} in /etc/conf.d/rc for other
services only?


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
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Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 10:37, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Roy Marples wrote:
> > RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no"
> > RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no"
> > RC_PLUG_SERVICES="net.wlan !net.*"
> >
> > or
> >
> > RC_HOTPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"
> > RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no|net.wlan !net.*"
>
> I'm afraid I don't get the exact difference :P, but what about honoring
> both yes|no and list of services.

Well, the first example is my new idea
The second example is what we used todo (before the last patch I wanged in), 
but one day some bright spark may create a service called "no" and expect it 
to be coldpluggable ....

pre19-r1 is like RC_COLDPLUG="*" and doesn't honour yes/no, hence this email.

>
> Anyway, what we really need is ability to turn off that coldplug thing
> *completely* on *udev* level and restore some sanity. I really don't
> need to have my TV card coldplugged at the point when /dev is being
> populated by devices (e.g.,  Bug 130766 or Bug 128962).

Not going to help 128962 as the firewire module is already loaded and has 
taken eth0 ....

>
> Also I'd like to note that coldplugging network devices in such way may
> be a security risk as well, as firewall gets started much later than net
> gets started. There's Bug 119613 about this. There was also Bug 78495
> about this, got solved on hotplug level, but the latest udev versions
> moved the problem to coldplug level instead (even worse IMHO).

Add your firewall script to the boot runlevel and depend like so

depend() {
   before net
}

Solved!

>
> Last point - there's also that hotplug_$iface="no" thing in
> /etc/conf.d/net - wouldn't it be better to all keep network-related
> settings in one place? I.e., adding coldplug_$iface="yes|no" there
> instead, and use RC_{HOTPLUG,COLDPLUG} in /etc/conf.d/rc for other
> services only?

hotplug_$iface was a fudge, a very bad idea that has been removed baelayout.
If baselayout is to have any hotplug/coldplug control it should be on a 
service level and not just a network level.


-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Jakub Moc]

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Roy Marples wrote:
>> Anyway, what we really need is ability to turn off that coldplug thing
>> *completely* on *udev* level and restore some sanity. I really don't
>> need to have my TV card coldplugged at the point when /dev is being
>> populated by devices (e.g.,  Bug 130766 or Bug 128962).
> 
> Not going to help 128962 as the firewire module is already loaded and has 
> taken eth0 ....

Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level. I
don't have any use for such automagic stuff, it just complicates things
instead of making them easier. Blacklisting every single module that
gets coldplugged for whatever weird reason is not a sane way to work
around a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place. Also,
it's not really clear what determines whether something gets coldplugged
or not. As said, the devices range from TV cards over NICs to USB
sticks... Uh. :/

>> Also I'd like to note that coldplugging network devices in such way may
>> be a security risk as well, as firewall gets started much later than net
>> gets started. There's Bug 119613 about this. There was also Bug 78495
>> about this, got solved on hotplug level, but the latest udev versions
>> moved the problem to coldplug level instead (even worse IMHO).
> 
> Add your firewall script to the boot runlevel and depend like so
> 
> depend() {
>    before net
> }
>
> Solved!
>

iptables already has "before net", doesn't exactly help. Well, I don't
need net on boot level first of all and I didn't set it to be launched
at that runlevel. The runlevel setting gets ignored, however.

> hotplug_$iface was a fudge, a very bad idea that has been removed baelayout.
> If baselayout is to have any hotplug/coldplug control it should be on a 
> service level and not just a network level.

Well yeah, as noted above, we are just probably solving the thing in a
wrong place to work around udev problem.


-- 

jakub



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Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Marius Mauch]

Jakub Moc schrieb:
> Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
> an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level. I
> don't have any use for such automagic stuff, it just complicates things
> instead of making them easier.

Well said.

Marius
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 12:26, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
> an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level.

So maybe I should be clear in conf.d/rc that the RC_{COLD,HOT}PLUG stuff only 
affects services started and not the actual plugging itself.

> iptables already has "before net", doesn't exactly help. Well, I don't
> need net on boot level first of all and I didn't set it to be launched
> at that runlevel. The runlevel setting gets ignored, however.

Hmmm, maybe you don't understand then :)
If coldplug adds net services to the boot runlevel then the firewall script 
needs to be in the boot runlevel.

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Jakub Moc]

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Roy Marples wrote:
>> iptables already has "before net", doesn't exactly help. Well, I don't
>> need net on boot level first of all and I didn't set it to be launched
>> at that runlevel. The runlevel setting gets ignored, however.
> 
> Hmmm, maybe you don't understand then :)
> If coldplug adds net services to the boot runlevel then the firewall script 
> needs to be in the boot runlevel.

I do understand, however ignoring runlevels settings is in itself a
coldplug bug. :)

-- 

jakub


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Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 13:35, Jakub Moc wrote:
> I do understand, however ignoring runlevels settings is in itself a
> coldplug bug. :)

So don't use coldplug then!
RC_COLDPLUG="no" unless you're on pre19-r1 where it's "!*"

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Mike Auty]

Roy,
	I think the complaint is the automatic loading of modules by udev.
Seemingly in the udev Changelog this is referred to as "add udevtrigger
to request events for coldplug", whereas it seems you're using coldplug
to refer to the automatic starting of services.  Is there another name
for what udev's doing other than cold-plugging?  If we can find one,
perhaps that will help clarify the situation...
	Mike  5:)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 15:03, Mike Auty wrote:
> Roy,
> 	I think the complaint is the automatic loading of modules by udev.
> Seemingly in the udev Changelog this is referred to as "add udevtrigger
> to request events for coldplug", whereas it seems you're using coldplug
> to refer to the automatic starting of services.  Is there another name
> for what udev's doing other than cold-plugging?  If we can find one,
> perhaps that will help clarify the situation...
> 	Mike  5:)

That is true.

I kinda jumped on using the same names really, so if anyone can think of a 
better name for baselayout to use instead of RC_COLDPLUG and RC_HOTPLUG now 
is a good time to speak. 

I kinda like them myself though as they make sense to me :)

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Greg KH]

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:22:39PM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 12:26, Jakub Moc wrote:
> > Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
> > an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level.
> 
> So maybe I should be clear in conf.d/rc that the RC_{COLD,HOT}PLUG stuff only 
> affects services started and not the actual plugging itself.

Yes.  I'll be working on a udev specific option to enable/disable the
coldplug functionality that it is currently causing (loading all modules
for all devices at boot time right now.)

I held off on doing that for a while, until people complained that it
wasn't doing it like other distros, now people complain when it was
switched :)

Seriously, it will take a bit of work, and I'm slowly getting there, too
much "real job" work these days.

Thanks for your patience,

greg k-h
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Roy Marples]

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 19:27, Greg KH wrote:
> On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:22:39PM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> > On Wednesday 03 May 2006 12:26, Jakub Moc wrote:
> > > Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
> > > an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level.
> >
> > So maybe I should be clear in conf.d/rc that the RC_{COLD,HOT}PLUG stuff
> > only affects services started and not the actual plugging itself.
>
> Yes.  I'll be working on a udev specific option to enable/disable the
> coldplug functionality that it is currently causing (loading all modules
> for all devices at boot time right now.)

Excellent news. Hopefully we can trigger that by the same RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no" 
variable so our users only have to configure it once.

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] coldplug and hotplug

[Greg KH]

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 09:54:53AM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 19:27, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:22:39PM +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 03 May 2006 12:26, Jakub Moc wrote:
> > > > Well, it should not be loaded first of all... Hence why I want to have
> > > > an ability to turn off the coldplug thing *completely* on udev level.
> > >
> > > So maybe I should be clear in conf.d/rc that the RC_{COLD,HOT}PLUG stuff
> > > only affects services started and not the actual plugging itself.
> >
> > Yes.  I'll be working on a udev specific option to enable/disable the
> > coldplug functionality that it is currently causing (loading all modules
> > for all devices at boot time right now.)
> 
> Excellent news. Hopefully we can trigger that by the same RC_COLDPLUG="yes|no" 
> variable so our users only have to configure it once.

Yes, I'll try to use that variable.

thanks,

greg k-h
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: coldplug and hotplug

[Duncan]

Roy Marples posted <200605031013.58725.uberlord@gentoo.org>, excerpted
below,  on Wed, 03 May 2006 10:13:58 +0100:

> baselayout lets all hotplug events through and gives no control over this, 
> whereas we can limit coldplug events via the RC_COLDPLUG variable.
> RC_COLDPLUG is currently just a pattern list, but used to be a simple yes|no
> I'm wondering if it's a bit messy from the users perspective []

I can't really say I have a serious opinion at this point, except that
I've been watching and appreciating all the hard work you've been putting
in on baselayout.  The Gentoo system really is amazing in that regard, and
yet it keeps getting better! =8^)  While you're working on those stubborn
bugs, just be aware that some of us users appreciate the trouble you go
to, especially when something in ~arch breaks (not that it isn't
expected on ~arch, just sain' that's when the working system gets
appreciated) and we can't simply take it for granted any longer.  =8^P

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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