[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209)

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209)

[Aron Griffis]

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Present:
  azarah (Martin Schlemmer)
  Koon (Thierry Carrez)
  Swift (Sven Vermeulen)
  agriffis (Aron Griffis)
  seemant (Seemant Kulleen)
  solar (Ned Ludd)
  vapier (Mike Frysinger)

Agenda:
 * GLEP 44 - Manifest2 format

Outcome:
 * Council members were generally in agreement that GLEP 44 is a good
   idea, but without genone present to answer questions, the council
   was unwilling to approve or deny it.  Postponed to next meeting,
   with the expectation that genone or a proxy will attend then.

--
Aron Griffis
Gentoo Linux Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:25:43 -0500 Aron Griffis <agriffis@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Outcome:

I've committed the amendment to GLEP 39 (council) as discussed. It
should show up on the web within an hour or three. If I or docutils
screwed it up, someone please let me know.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Wearer of the shiny hat)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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[gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Torsten Veller]

* Aron Griffis <agriffis@gentoo.org>:
> Agenda:
>  * GLEP 44 - Manifest2 format
>
> Outcome:
>  * Council members were generally in agreement that GLEP 44 is a good
>    idea, but without genone present to answer questions, the council
>    was unwilling to approve or deny it.  Postponed to next meeting,
>    with the expectation that genone or a proxy will attend then.

The GLEP was published here two months ago. A reminder was posted two
weeks ago. Can you please add your questions to the thread on this
mailinglist in time?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Ned Ludd]

On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 00:21 +0100, Torsten Veller wrote:
> * Aron Griffis <agriffis@gentoo.org>:
> > Agenda:
> >  * GLEP 44 - Manifest2 format
> >
> > Outcome:
> >  * Council members were generally in agreement that GLEP 44 is a good
> >    idea, but without genone present to answer questions, the council
> >    was unwilling to approve or deny it.  Postponed to next meeting,
> >    with the expectation that genone or a proxy will attend then.
> 
> The GLEP was published here two months ago. A reminder was posted two
> weeks ago. Can you please add your questions to the thread on this
> mailinglist in time?

A part of the motivation of glep44 is about saving space.

I would like to see it drop the tab handling for indicating newlines
and just use a real newlines when we want a newline.

While having the tabs makes it easier for people to read it increases
the byte size and adds some undesired complexity for admins, scripts &
programs which want to utilize the file. A basic grep or sort would
probably be more than a one liner when having to deal with the
newline+tabs.

Current ~arch portage-2.1_preX Manifest files are using MD5, RMD160 and
SHA256;

Will Manifest2 drop SHA1 and use SHA256 also?
Is a max of 3 ciphers a self imposed hard limit? If not can we set that
to be so we don't get carried away?

The words AUXFILE EBUILD MISCFILE DISTFILE could be using shorter
names such as AUX EBD MSC DST like the existing vdb CONTENTS
files does for objects dirs and symlinks.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:05:35 -0500 Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org> wrote:
| The words AUXFILE EBUILD MISCFILE DISTFILE could be using shorter
| names such as AUX EBD MSC DST like the existing vdb CONTENTS
| files does for objects dirs and symlinks.

Would be interesting to see a comparison made between the space that
would be saved by using less clear names here and, say, the space taken
up by blank lines and comments in ebuilds...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Wearer of the shiny hat)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thursday 09 February 2006 22:05, Ned Ludd wrote:
> I would like to see it drop the tab handling for indicating newlines
> and just use a real newlines when we want a newline.
>
> While having the tabs makes it easier for people to read it increases
> the byte size and adds some undesired complexity for admins, scripts &
> programs which want to utilize the file. A basic grep or sort would
> probably be more than a one liner when having to deal with the
> newline+tabs.

umm, i'm 99% sure you read it wrong ... the lines were wrapped in the GLEP to 
help you read it, the actual file format will not be like that

> Current ~arch portage-2.1_preX Manifest files are using MD5, RMD160 and
> SHA256;
>
> Will Manifest2 drop SHA1 and use SHA256 also?
> Is a max of 3 ciphers a self imposed hard limit? If not can we set that
> to be so we don't get carried away?

i think this is just a matter of the example being outdated
-mike
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[solar]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 22:39 -0500, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Thursday 09 February 2006 22:05, Ned Ludd wrote:
> > I would like to see it drop the tab handling for indicating newlines
> > and just use a real newlines when we want a newline.
> >
> > While having the tabs makes it easier for people to read it increases
> > the byte size and adds some undesired complexity for admins, scripts &
> > programs which want to utilize the file. A basic grep or sort would
> > probably be more than a one liner when having to deal with the
> > newline+tabs.
> 
> umm, i'm 99% sure you read it wrong ... the lines were wrapped in the GLEP to 
> help you read it, the actual file format will not be like that

I hope that is is the case.

-- 
solar <solar@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 03:17 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:05:35 -0500 Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org> wrote:
> | The words AUXFILE EBUILD MISCFILE DISTFILE could be using shorter
> | names such as AUX EBD MSC DST like the existing vdb CONTENTS
> | files does for objects dirs and symlinks.
> 
> Would be interesting to see a comparison made between the space that
> would be saved by using less clear names here and, say, the space taken
> up by blank lines and comments in ebuilds...

Interesting, yes... but ebuilds are read by humans and it is necessary
to be comprehensible a lot more than the Manifest files are.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed (was: Gentoo Council Meeting Summary (20060209))

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:14:26 -0500 Chris Gianelloni
<wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
| On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 03:17 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:05:35 -0500 Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org>
| > wrote:
| > | The words AUXFILE EBUILD MISCFILE DISTFILE could be using shorter
| > | names such as AUX EBD MSC DST like the existing vdb CONTENTS
| > | files does for objects dirs and symlinks.
| > 
| > Would be interesting to see a comparison made between the space that
| > would be saved by using less clear names here and, say, the space
| > taken up by blank lines and comments in ebuilds...
| 
| Interesting, yes... but ebuilds are read by humans and it is necessary
| to be comprehensible a lot more than the Manifest files are.

Sure. But the comparison would show whether or not it's going to make a
substantial difference. And if it does, there're other things that can
be done in the Manifest file that'll save a whole load of space too
(e.g. using $ to represent $PN, ! to represent files/, * to represent
ChangeLog and so on, since these characters aren't allowed in any
filename in the tree).

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Wearer of the shiny hat)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed

[Alin Nastac]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:14:26 -0500 Chris Gianelloni
><wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>| Interesting, yes... but ebuilds are read by humans and it is necessary
>| to be comprehensible a lot more than the Manifest files are.
>
>Sure. But the comparison would show whether or not it's going to make a
>substantial difference. And if it does, there're other things that can
>be done in the Manifest file that'll save a whole load of space too
>(e.g. using $ to represent $PN, ! to represent files/, * to represent
>ChangeLog and so on, since these characters aren't allowed in any
>filename in the tree).
>
>  
>
When you have thousands of small files (1-4 blocks), the space saved by
removing all unnecessary whitespaces is minimal at best.
Minimizing the number of files is another story. Unifying manifests with
digest files will save a considerably amount of disk space.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Manifest2 decision delayed

[Duncan]

Alin Nastac posted <43EDB07D.7030907@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:38:05 +0200:

> When you have thousands of small files (1-4 blocks), the space saved by
> removing all unnecessary whitespaces is minimal at best.

Of course, that depends on the filesystemm used... .

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 decision delayed

[John Mylchreest]

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On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:38:05AM +0200, Alin Nastac <mrness@gentoo.org> wrote:
> When you have thousands of small files (1-4 blocks), the space saved by
> removing all unnecessary whitespaces is minimal at best.
> Minimizing the number of files is another story. Unifying manifests with
> digest files will save a considerably amount of disk space.

not to mention inodes. Thats one of my pet-hates about the tree' size.

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