[gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.

http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer 
community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100% 
accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers 
including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation tests.

I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a 
look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm 
especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty 
programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any 
other accessibilty issues.

Also, I only use GNU/Linux and I have only tested on the following browsers:

Mozilla-1.7
firefox-1.0
Opera-8.5
Internet Explorer-6 under CrossOver Office
Epiphany-1.8.2
Links-2.1 in text mode and graphics mode.

If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or 
Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version 
in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari 
so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.

The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the grey 
bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes directly 
under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of what a new 
Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a better idea of 
what should be included in this menu or think something important is 
being left out please send that in your feedback as well.

Thanks in advance

Curtis
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Aaron Kulbe]

Curt,

I'm on a Mac Mini.  OS X 10.4, Safari v. 2.0.2

Looks good here.

Cheers,

Aaron Kulbe
a.k.a. SuperLag


On 11/21/05, Curtis Napier <curtis119@gentoo.org> wrote:
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
>
> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
>
> After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer
> community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100%
> accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers
> including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation tests.
>
> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a
> look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm
> especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty
> programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any
> other accessibilty issues.
>
> Also, I only use GNU/Linux and I have only tested on the following browsers:
>
> Mozilla-1.7
> firefox-1.0
> Opera-8.5
> Internet Explorer-6 under CrossOver Office
> Epiphany-1.8.2
> Links-2.1 in text mode and graphics mode.
>
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>
> The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the grey
> bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes directly
> under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of what a new
> Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a better idea of
> what should be included in this menu or think something important is
> being left out please send that in your feedback as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Curtis
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Lance Albertson]

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Curtis Napier wrote:

> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.

Visually, the light grey color for the main text makes it a bit harder
to read the instructions. Any reason why you couldn't use black or a
darker color for the text? To me that text is the most important part of
our site and if we can't read that well, we have a problem :-).

That was the most glaring thing I could see first off. I'll have to dig
through the site more later.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
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ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Luis F. Araujo]

Lance Albertson wrote:

>Curtis Napier wrote:
>
>  
>
>>If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
>>Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
>>in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
>>so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>>    
>>
>
>Visually, the light grey color for the main text makes it a bit harder
>to read the instructions. Any reason why you couldn't use black or a
>darker color for the text? To me that text is the most important part of
>our site and if we can't read that well, we have a problem :-).
>
>That was the most glaring thing I could see first off. I'll have to dig
>through the site more later.
>
>Cheers-
>
>  
>
Besides this suggestion, haven't you tried the light-purple/yellow 
background
i talked to you about?
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Petteri Räty]

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Lance Albertson wrote:
> Curtis Napier wrote:
> 
> 
>>If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
>>Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
>>in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
>>so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Visually, the light grey color for the main text makes it a bit harder
> to read the instructions. Any reason why you couldn't use black or a
> darker color for the text? To me that text is the most important part of
> our site and if we can't read that well, we have a problem :-).
> 

I have the same consern. I use a TFT-display (Dell 2005FPW) that has a
quite bright back light which might be the cause of the light colors
being hard to read.

Regards,
Petteri

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Aaron Kulbe]

> I have the same consern. I use a TFT-display (Dell 2005FPW) that has a
> quite bright back light which might be the cause of the light colors
> being hard to read.

Petteri,

I have that same display.  I turn the brightness down to 40%, since
it's way too bright at the default 100%.

Cheers,

Aaron Kulbe
a.k.a. SuperLag

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Petteri Räty]

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Aaron Kulbe wrote:
>>I have the same consern. I use a TFT-display (Dell 2005FPW) that has a
>>quite bright back light which might be the cause of the light colors
>>being hard to read.
> 
> 
> Petteri,
> 
> I have that same display.  I turn the brightness down to 40%, since
> it's way too bright at the default 100%.
> 

I had it at 80. Considering that many people use their displays at
factory settings and that the TFT:s that I have seen are usually set
very bright this should be taken into consideration. I like my display
quite bright because it is easier to work in the dark... *grin*

Regards,
Petteri

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Renat Golubchyk]

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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:37:00 -0600 Lance Albertson
<ramereth@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Curtis Napier wrote:
> 
> > If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> > Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser
> > version in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from
> > Konqueror or Safari so feedback from those browsers would be much
> > appreciated.
> 
> Visually, the light grey color for the main text makes it a bit harder
> to read the instructions. Any reason why you couldn't use black or a
> darker color for the text? To me that text is the most important part
> of our site and if we can't read that well, we have a problem :-).

Variable names and commands are bright blue in the old docs. The new
color is darker and that does not improve readability since the
contrast is not optimal. I think a brighter tint would make it easier
to distinguish the text color from the (highlighted) parts.

Cheers,
Renat

-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
                                              (Einstein)

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Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Jakub Moc]

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21.11.2005, 20:16:47, Renat Golubchyk wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:37:00 -0600 Lance Albertson
> <ramereth@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Variable names and commands are bright blue in the old docs. The new
> color is darker and that does not improve readability since the
> contrast is not optimal. I think a brighter tint would make it easier
> to distinguish the text color from the (highlighted) parts.

> Cheers,
> Renat

Was like that originally, looked pretty bad and distracting.


- --
jakub
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[gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

First of all, thank you everyone for all the feedback. Your input is 
important and greatly appreciated.

I should have said that the last update was not complete as far as 
design was concerned. I was mainly looking for accessibility and 
rendering issues on as many browsers/OS's as possible. I got that 
feedback and fixed the issues that came up. I also implemented the rest 
of the design so it should now be more visually appealing and better 
match Aarons reference design. I took into consideration all of the 
suggestions that were submitted and now ask for additional feedback to 
ensure that my changes didn't introduce any additional 
rendering/accessibility bugs and that the design is acceptable to as 
many people as possible.

If there are no more outstanding issues reported I will submit this 
current layout for approval.


Questions to some of the answers and suggestions that were brought up:

The artwork is all part of the winning design. Any issues with the 
infinity symbol should have been addressed a year ago.

I am not the designer of this site. I am merely implementing it in the 
XSL backend.  I am the only person working on this and I am the 
designated official developer, the project lead is Swift and his role is 
to offer advice, enforce design policy and generally oversee my actions 
and help me with internal gentoo policies and procedures. The project is 
actually owned by Infra and they (they == infra leads which is klieber 
and ramereth as far as I know), along with Swift, have the final say on 
everything. I welcome any and all patches that you are willing to 
submit. All submissions will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Aarons reference design at www.aaronshi.com/gentoo/ is exactly that: A 
reference. In it's current form it differs from his original submission 
which was the winning entry and should not be considered as anything 
else but a reference. I tried to stick to that design as much as 
possible but some things were simply not possible.

Aarons design uses a smaller default font, that is not acceptable from 
an accessibility POV. The main font is at 1em and all cursory fonts 
multipliers of 1em. The main font will remain at 1em which is the 
standard for the accessibility guidelines. If you don't like the 
standard font size every single graphical browser offers a font zoom 
capability, use it.

Aarons use of a smaller font allows more information to appear on the 
page. This is an illusion of size. If you have your browser window set 
to 800x600 or smaller the jumpads disappear and the page has to be 
scrolled to see them no matter how big/small the font is. If you enlarge 
the font on Aarons reference to the standard 1em the jumppads disappear 
and the page must be scrolled anyway so this point is moot.

Purple background with yellow text is hideous. Not going to happen.

The "Locator" would require rewrites of not only the XSL but also the 
actual xml files and is outside the scope of this project. Touching any 
xml content file is strictly off limits, all existing xml should be 
backwards compatible with the new design. This point is not debatable. 
Use of a database would make this task easier while allowing backwards 
compatibility but it will have to wait for a future update to the site 
to be implemented.

I actually implemented a search that used google much like the example 
that was posted here. The search was discussed at length with the 
project lead and it was decided that using a third party search engine 
such as google was unacceptable. As Lance said, this will have to be 
coordinated with infra at a later date. Gentoo is a not-for-profit but, 
unfortunetly, it is the wrong kind of non-profit so Google will not 
sponsor us.

The contents of the uppermost menu are to sites that are outside the 
www.gentoo.org website. They will stay in this location. They are green 
to contrast with the purple background to ensure that colorblind and 
other visually impaired people can see it. Green is the compliment to 
purple so I am baffled that people think the combination is not 
attractive. In Aarons preview the light purple color of these links is 
not visible to color blind individuals thus it is unacceptable. This 
color will not change.

The grey menu should contain links that would be used in order of a new 
user and that highlight the main parts of the site. I did this quickly 
to have something there to look at. I didn't notice any good suggestions 
to replace what is there. If you have suggestions please send them. The 
same goes for the wording in the purple boxes, if you don't like what 
they say submit a suggestion for each. Suggestions of "I don't like it 
you should change it" that don't include a clearly worded replacement 
will be ignored. The donate box is here to stay until the search 
function is implemented.

Graphics should be implemented in the CSS as much as possible to aid 
future maintenance (the xsl templates are huge and not easy to maintain. 
The least amount of editing of these files as possible is one of the 
major goals). In text browsers that can handle graphics but don't 
support CSS the upper left logo (which is a background image so it can 
be put in the css) will not appear but will leave space for the missing 
background image. I can't figure out a way around this. If you have a 
suggestion I would appreciate it.

Horizontal scrolling of the entire page when a code listing is wider 
than the page only happens in IE. All other browsers understand the CSS 
scroll:auto tag and will only scroll the actual code listing. The same 
applies to inline images within the page contents. IE is broken but I 
did everything I could to make it behave the same as other browsers. 
This is one issue that IE is simply broken on and there is nothing I can 
do to fix that. Javascript fixes are available but the use of Javascript 
is strictly forbidden. Javascript is not debatable.

Redundant links to important pages such as the Handbook and Documention 
only serve to make them easier for a user to locate. They will remain 
for the time being unless someone can come up with a good reason to 
remove them other than "I don't like it".

The <hr /> tags in the Handbook navigation are contained within the 
handbook xsl template. Touching that file is outside my scope.

The redesign test site is not a full mirror. I added the security index 
page so we could see what it looks like.

The site is not XHTML it is HTML-4.01 Transitional and it passes the w3c 
validator. Manually overriding HTML-4.01 Transitional in the w3c 
validator is not required and any errors that it reports if you do this 
will not be addressed. If you can come up with a good technical reason 
why doing this would benefit anyone I will address it.

Navigation and useability studies are beyond my scope. These issues 
should have been addressed a year ago.

The left hand navigation column is dead. No amount of beating this dead 
horse will resurrect it. The jumppads will remain at the bottom and 
appear on all non-documentation pages so that those links are accessible 
as much as possible.

<base href> is not needed for this site to function properly. If you 
want to save the page locally you are free to do so and add the tag 
yourself for your local copy.

The CSS is only 12k. Why would shaving 4k off of it to make it 8k make a 
difference to anyone?

The site is dynamically generated with XSL/XML all the pages end in 
.xml. There are no plans to change it to .xhtml now or in the future.

The image on the about page is within the content xml file and not 
within the XSL template. Touching about.xml or any other xml content 
file is outside my scope.

GLEP 10 is outside my scope.

The jumppads have alt text. They always have. They pop up as tool tips 
on every browser I have tested. If they aren't for you please submit 
your browser version and OS and I will look into it.

The blue text that represents code was darkened for accessibility 
issues. It will not change.

In Aarons preview the search box and the ads column are placed with a 
Position:absolute and has it's size set. At resolutions below 800x600 
this makes the ads overlap the content and the search box overlap the 
box to the left on every browser. When content is scarce the ads overlap 
the footer. This is not fixable given the current state of css support 
in the various browsers. After many many many long hours of research and 
experimentation I decided that we would have to resort to a table for 
the ads column and include the search (now donate) box within the div 
that contains the four purple boxes with a % width to fix this issue. I 
lowered the % width of the donate box and increased the others to bring 
it more inline with Aarons original design. It's not perfect but it's 
close enough.

Accessibilty guidelines say that all text links should be underlined. I 
made an exception for the grey menu bar for aesthetic purposes but will 
not make an exception for any other links.

gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should render 
correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on the mac 
is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as possible.

Summary and authors are important and should be prominently displayed 
before the actual content. On the current design they are on the right 
in a tiny column that wraps every two words. This is unacceptable. These 
items will stay at the top for now unless someone can come up with a 
place to put them that makes sense, looks good, allows the summary to be 
seen on top and not below the content (because a summary should be above 
the content otherwise why have a summary if you have to scroll past the 
content to see it?). The handbook is the only page that has a large list 
of authors and authors only appear on the first page so this should not 
be a problem.



Here is a list of items that have changed since my last post:

*menu code was changed from a floated block list to a simple inline div 
with non-breaking spaces. This should fix the IE5 on Mac issue.

*Background color for content was made light grey with black text for 
better visibility of the text. Bright monitors should no longer be a 
problem.

*background color of the ads was made darker to contrast with the 
content area. Decorative header was added.

*white space was collapsed as much as possible.

*all extraneous information and decorative news headers were removed 
from the front page to help readability and to bring focus to the 
information. This includes the cow image and text. Overwhelming amounts 
of information on the front page should no longer be a problem. This 
also brings the jumppads closer to the top so new users will be better 
able to spot them.

*table headers were centered and data cells left justified.

*table borders are now collapsed and only 1px thick. They are no longer 
ugly.

*removed the BOLD from the design credit in the footer. This wasn't 
supposed to be BOLD in the first place, probably a mistake on my part.

*The purple boxes below the grey menu bar now only appear on the main index.

*news poster date and submitter color changed to match Aarons design

*added a filter that removes the author and date if they are missing or 
script generated.

*removed redundant doc title

*removed the donation button image and replaced it with a simple button.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Curtis Napier wrote:
| The contents of the uppermost menu are to sites that are outside the
| www.gentoo.org website. They will stay in this location. They are green
| to contrast with the purple background to ensure that colorblind and
| other visually impaired people can see it. Green is the compliment to
| purple so I am baffled that people think the combination is not
| attractive.

The particular shade of green on wwwredesign is hideous and reminiscent
of bile, nausea or mucus. The green found in the upper-left corner of
www.gentoo.org looks much better and would be greatly preferable. It
also is brighter and would contrast better with the dark purple
background, to increase accessibility.

| Summary and authors are important and should be prominently displayed
| before the actual content. On the current design they are on the right
| in a tiny column that wraps every two words. This is unacceptable. These
| items will stay at the top for now unless someone can come up with a
| place to put them that makes sense, looks good, allows the summary to be
| seen on top and not below the content (because a summary should be above
| the content otherwise why have a summary if you have to scroll past the
| content to see it?). The handbook is the only page that has a large list
| of authors and authors only appear on the first page so this should not
| be a problem.

You've given good reasoning for including the summary at the beginning,
but not the authors. Or perhaps it's impossible to split them, given how
the XML works?

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 23 November 2005 07:40, Curtis Napier wrote:
> Aarons design uses a smaller default font, that is not acceptable from
> an accessibility POV. The main font is at 1em and all cursory fonts
> multipliers of 1em. The main font will remain at 1em which is the
> standard for the accessibility guidelines. If you don't like the
> standard font size every single graphical browser offers a font zoom
> capability, use it.

First of all, this new design looks already a lot better. Then, I can see 
your point about the font sizes. However, if you want to aid people with 
bad eyesight, wouldn't it be a better solution to follow the browser's 
default size. That way the page shows the prefered user size regardless 
of being zoomed or not.

Paul

ps. I also found two graphical glitches:
- There is a misterious white bar just below the overview bar (see 
ws1.png)
- The corners of the jump pads do not have the proper background color 
(see ws2.png)

pps. Maybe have the "design by Aaron Shi" actually point to his homepage

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Wednesday 23 November 2005 07:40, Curtis Napier wrote:
> ps. I also found two graphical glitches:
> - There is a misterious white bar just below the overview bar (see 
> ws1.png)
> - The corners of the jump pads do not have the proper background color 
> (see ws2.png)


Fixed. In CVS

If anyone with experience in Internet Explorer can figure out what is 
causing it to push the page off the left side of the window I would 
greatly appreciate it. I have never seen an error like that before and 
can't figure it out.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:40:45AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> If there are no more outstanding issues reported I will submit this 
> current layout for approval.

there's still a ton of wasted space in the purple bar ... if that was
tightened up, more news could be displayed ... having the last two or
three news items on the front page is pretty helpful imo and would
help to offset all the space created by the large ad sidebar

> The artwork is all part of the winning design. Any issues with the 
> infinity symbol should have been addressed a year ago.

well it clearly wasnt, might as well cover it now before the site goes
live ... as i pointed out, considering its location, this means that
our new logo basically becomes gentoo with an infinity sign

> I actually implemented a search that used google much like the example 
> that was posted here. The search was discussed at length with the 
> project lead and it was decided that using a third party search engine 
> such as google was unacceptable.

why ?  we all know google is great and the implementation would be both
cheap and quite usable

> Gentoo is a not-for-profit but, 
> unfortunetly, it is the wrong kind of non-profit so Google will not 
> sponsor us.

i dont see why a simple form redirect to google would require any sort
of sponsorship ... the thread fork to hardware at google was weird
anyways

> *all extraneous information and decorative news headers were removed 
> from the front page to help readability and to bring focus to the 
> information. This includes the cow image and text. Overwhelming amounts 
> of information on the front page should no longer be a problem. This 
> also brings the jumppads closer to the top so new users will be better 
> able to spot them.

seems like everything was cut ... now the frontpage is just a simple
site index page ?  i liked the simple cow/about blurb myself
-mike
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[R Hill]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:40:45AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
>> The artwork is all part of the winning design. Any issues with the 
>> infinity symbol should have been addressed a year ago.
> 
> well it clearly wasnt, might as well cover it now before the site goes
> live ... as i pointed out, considering its location, this means that
> our new logo basically becomes gentoo with an infinity sign

well it's good enough for fedora. ;P

http://capstrat.com/development/fedora/index.php?imagenumber=14

i actually like the new logo.  but i'm also secure in my choice of distribution
and don't care what other people might think.

>> *all extraneous information and decorative news headers were removed 
>> from the front page to help readability and to bring focus to the 
>> information. This includes the cow image and text. Overwhelming amounts 
>> of information on the front page should no longer be a problem. This 
>> also brings the jumppads closer to the top so new users will be better 
>> able to spot them.
> 
> seems like everything was cut ... now the frontpage is just a simple
> site index page ?  i liked the simple cow/about blurb myself

i did too.  it does seem like there should be something between the purple
blurbs and the news.  i also wish the jump-pads were on the left, but if that's
not an option, then there's no point arguing it.

all in all i think it looks great.  it's been a long time coming.  thanks for
doing this.

--de.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:40:45AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> If there are no more outstanding issues reported I will submit this 
> current layout for approval.

the links in the footbars still dont have 'on mouse over' behavior
like all the other links
-mike
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an 
accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. Aaron was gone for months 
and months and months so I was listening to the feedback from others and 
trying to please everyone. I think I forgot that I took on this project 
to implement Aaron's winning design and not to *redesign* it to make 
other people happy. Aaron is the designer, I am simply the schmuck who 
is putting it into the XSL.

I took on this project thinking that Aaron and I would work together as 
a team but when Real Life called Aaron away for all that time I did the 
best I could. Now that his real life obligations are giving him more 
time, Aaron is back. He and I will work together to implement this as 
closely as possible to his reference desogn.

So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to 
Aarons's reference. It's a Holiday in my country and I'm going out of 
town so what you see on the test site won't be updated anymore until I 
get back. Check out what I did change in the meantime.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Flammie Pirinen]

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2005-11-25, Curtis Napier sanoi, jotta:

> I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an 
> accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. 

Not really.

> So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to 
> Aarons's reference. [...] Check out what I did change in the meantime.

Uh-oh. The usability regression from what the site was yesterday is
unbelievable. Almost all of the texts are too small to read again, and
the color combinations are also unreadable again.  I hope that you and
Aaron are still going to take into account at least all the usability
related requests from the feedback you asked, because I'd be pretty
annoyed to see yet another web site redesign that manages to make
original website even more unusable than it was.

-- 
Flammie, Gentoo Linux Documentation's Finnish head translator.
<http://dev.gentoo.org/~flammie>

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Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Jakub Moc]

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25.11.2005, 8:06:51, Flammie Pirinen wrote:

> 2005-11-25, Curtis Napier sanoi, jotta:

>> So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to 
>> Aarons's reference. [...] Check out what I did change in the meantime.

> Uh-oh. The usability regression from what the site was yesterday is
> unbelievable. Almost all of the texts are too small to read again, and
> the color combinations are also unreadable again.  I hope that you and
> Aaron are still going to take into account at least all the usability
> related requests from the feedback you asked, because I'd be pretty
> annoyed to see yet another web site redesign that manages to make
> original website even more unusable than it was.

Ouch, what happened again?!... I can't agree more. I object to any redesign if
the whole thing was arranged so badly that all the accessibility flaws are to
be considered an unchangeable part of the "design". Better stick w/ the current
one in that case. :-(


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature ;)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

Flammie Pirinen wrote:
> 2005-11-25, Curtis Napier sanoi, jotta:
> 
> 
>>I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an 
>>accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. 
> 
> 
> Not really.
> 
> 
>>So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to 
>>Aarons's reference. [...] Check out what I did change in the meantime.
> 
> 
> Uh-oh. The usability regression from what the site was yesterday is
> unbelievable. Almost all of the texts are too small to read again, and
> the color combinations are also unreadable again.  I hope that you and
> Aaron are still going to take into account at least all the usability
> related requests from the feedback you asked, because I'd be pretty
> annoyed to see yet another web site redesign that manages to make
> original website even more unusable than it was.
> 


Sorry, I should have been a little more clear. What I meant in my last 
email is that I would get the site to match Aarons current reference and 
then he and I, working together as a team, would then address all the 
issues that were brought up during the last round of feedback. Aarons 
input as the designer will be make it so much easier to make sure those 
accessibilty/other feedack is incorporated in a way that is pleasing to 
look at and integrates with Aarons original design. This is how it 
should have been done from the beginning as I already said in my last 
email.

Sorry for any confusion.


ps. I'm moving all discussion of this to the www-redesign@gentoo.org 
mailing list. I'll start a new thread there right now. Anyone who wants 
to participate should sign up for that list.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Duncan]

Curtis Napier posted <43840EED.2010909@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:40:45 -0500:

> Here is a list of items that have changed since my last post:

Wow!  Very good (near perfect!) and dramatically improved (beyond what I
would have considered possible). Thanks for addressing directly all the
issues brought up, either changing them or explaining why they couldn't be
changed within current scope.

The only thing left here, and I there may be no direct solution, is that
at high zoom levels, the text in the purple boxes moves out of them and
into the white of the main content area, where it becomes invisible.  It
it some way possible to have the purple boxes expand as the content within
them expands?  If not, that's deliberately TRYING to find fault anyway,
and already better than it was in this regard.  (The text stays inside the
boxes better than it did.)  If that's all I can find, when I'm LOOKING to
find fault...  =8^)

This is getting very close to what I'd call the "perfect" page, far closer
than I thought was even /possible/ on "complex" content, given the imposed
project constraints as you outlined.  It really /does/ show what's
possible!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Daniel Ostrow]

On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 01:40 -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:

<big_snip>

> Accessibilty guidelines say that all text links should be underlined. I 
> made an exception for the grey menu bar for aesthetic purposes but will 
> not make an exception for any other links.

</big_snip>

Given the above shouldn't the text links below each advertisement
graphic also be underlined. The implication of the current text is that
they are not links at all when they are.

-- 
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
dostrow@gentoo.org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:40:45 -0500 Curtis Napier <curtis119@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| The artwork is all part of the winning design. Any issues with the 
| infinity symbol should have been addressed a year ago.

I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of
voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinity was just a
minor detail and not part of the design itself.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 04:57:11PM +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of
> voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinity was just a
> minor detail and not part of the design itself.

Yes, I remember that - I just can't locate it in the archives.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:49:47 +0100 Henrik Brix Andersen
<brix@gentoo.org> wrote:
| On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 04:57:11PM +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of
| > voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinity was just a
| > minor detail and not part of the design itself.
| 
| Yes, I remember that - I just can't locate it in the archives.

It was on -core. But there was a nice forums post too.

Sven Vermeulen writes at http://tinyurl.com/amyy3 :
> Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion
> will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the
> development though...

And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too
late to change things? Riiiiiiight.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:05:53PM +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion
> > will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the
> > development though...
> 
> And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too
> late to change things? Riiiiiiight.
> 

I said that in that stage of the redesign development the logo discussion
shouldn't be held as it is part of the design "the infinity sign will be
kept" but that we leave it open for discussion if enough shoulders are put
under it ("huge discussion").

The primary concern at that stage of the development was to continue to
develop the design/XSL so that we have something workable when we offer the
design to the public... which is now.

Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a
discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a "strong,
compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has
voted on".

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Gentoo Foundation Trustee          |  http://foundation.gentoo.org
  Gentoo Documentation Project Lead  |  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp
  Gentoo Council Member  

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:37AM +0100, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:05:53PM +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion
> > > will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the
> > > development though...
> > 
> > And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too
> > late to change things? Riiiiiiight.
>
> Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a
> discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a "strong,
> compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has
> voted on".

by 'voted on' you mean the vote that happened on the forums ?  i
thought that vote was for the different website designs, they didnt
really cover aspects of different designs
-mike
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Thursday 24 November 2005 06:50, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:37AM +0100, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:05:53PM +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > > Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge
> > > > discussion will be held on this. It's not important in this stage
> > > > of the development though...
> > >
> > > And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's
> > > too late to change things? Riiiiiiight.
> >
> > Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees
> > have had a discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we
> > need a "strong, compelling case for not using it since it is
> > something the community has voted on".
>
> by 'voted on' you mean the vote that happened on the forums ?  i
> thought that vote was for the different website designs, they didnt
> really cover aspects of different designs

That's true. What I remember from the trustee decision making process was 
that indeed the winning design was a guideline for what should be 
implemented, not an absolute. That's why (at least) I wanted Aaron to 
participate in the implementation.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:37AM +0100, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a
> discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a "strong,
> compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has
> voted on".

I'd say the fact that the Fedora Project plans to have it as part of
their official logo (as mentioned in this thread) is enough for us not
have it on our web page.

Regards,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[kang]

Curtis Napier wrote:

> gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should
> render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on
> the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as
> possible.
>
IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as
announced by MS), how is that considered  supported ? Is it even still
distributed within MacOSX Tiger ?

http://secunia.com/graph/?type=sol&period=all&prod=2678
http://secunia.com/advisories/13356/
http://secunia.com/advisories/12920/
http://secunia.com/advisories/10500/

Now people can also use NCSA Mosaic. It's valid as long as you can run
it. But a browser with vulns, unsupported by the vendor, with a broken
CSS, I think you do not have to support it. Well of course, if you like
it just do it ;)


Oh btw, *great* progress on the design.

Two things that I still find a bit wrong though:

- I find code boxes ugly. Maybe its some useability thing, is easier to
see, I dont' know, but its ugly ;)

- The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i
still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you
look for links. I'll take an example:
http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml
I am in 1024x768 and I don't see the boxes if I don't scroll. I don't
think you acn reduce every page so that you see them without scrolling.
Unfortunately I dont see any good solution. Maybe it'll stay this way. I
would put more than 2 news items on the front page then, even if it also
hides the boxes a bit on 800x600 or 1024, because it doesnt give much
info to have 2 items per news page ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Patrick Lauer]

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On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 12:14 +0000, kang wrote:
> Now people can also use NCSA Mosaic. It's valid as long as you can run
> it. But a browser with vulns, unsupported by the vendor, with a broken
> CSS, I think you do not have to support it. Well of course, if you like
> it just do it ;)
Hmmm.. I think we should "only" support standard HTML/XHTML/CSS.
No need to add "fixes" for known-broken browsers I guess.
(And no "old cruft" where avoidable)

> Oh btw, *great* progress on the design.
Yess, it's getting somewhere. 

> - The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i
> still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you
> look for links. I'll take an example:
I'd have expected those in a nice collapsed menu on top with annoying
mouseOver expansion
(I hate that because if you move your mouse across the page you have one
expanded menu hiding whatever is below)
Like this they are "out of sight" and on smaller screens not directly
visible without scrolling.

> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml
> I am in 1024x768 and I don't see the boxes if I don't scroll. I don't
> think you acn reduce every page so that you see them without scrolling.
> Unfortunately I dont see any good solution. 
The common solution is a menu on the left side, but then it gets tricky
with expanding/collapsing and keeping the whole menu visible.
> Maybe it'll stay this way. I
> would put more than 2 news items on the front page then, even if it also
> hides the boxes a bit on 800x600 or 1024, because it doesnt give much
> info to have 2 items per news page ;)
I guess that's part of it being a prototype and all that ;-)

Some usability issues:
The top right textlinks are too dark and quite small. They aren't easily
readable and don't present themselves as clickable items (especially
with the dotted line below them they look like "random" text)

The "manage / customize / optimize / interact" boxes on the startpage
don't give any useful information (all those links are available in the
"unreadable" text above and in the nice boxes at the bottom. Also their
format looks like GoogleAds to me, so I mentally filed them away as
"more ads".
As they don't appear anywhere else on the website I'd just remove them.

Another (minor) inconsistency is that on the startpage the date stamp on
the left shifts the text to the right, but all other subpages have the
text left-aligned. That is unexpected, I'd like all pages to behave
consistently.
This also includes the "infinity" logo that's only in one place (why
have it at all then?)

Apart from that I like the spartan look. 
Keep up the good work!

Patrick

-- 
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[kang]

Patrick Lauer wrote:

>Some usability issues:
>The top right textlinks are too dark and quite small. They aren't easily
>readable and don't present themselves as clickable items (especially
>with the dotted line below them they look like "random" text)
>  
>
Hm, the "don't present themselves as clickable" is sort of applicable to
many other links IHMO. Personally I'm more than used to it as a
technical guy, I find them as link without even thinking. For non
technical people, I know that they hardly know hyperlinks used to be
underlined and try to move the mouse wherever they feel like to click.
(especially my mum, but psst ;p)
When I first seen them they were green and quite visible. I see that now
they're purple on purple which is hard to read. I don't know the reason
though. btw: especially the www.gentoo.org catches the eye and tells
immediately that thoses are links. Well, that's how I see it.

>- The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i
>still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you
>look for links. I'll take an example:
>  
>
>I'd have expected those in a nice collapsed menu on top with annoying
>mouseOver expansion
>(I hate that because if you move your mouse across the page you have one
>expanded menu hiding whatever is below)
>Like this they are "out of sight" and on smaller screens not directly
>visible without scrolling.


>The "manage / customize / optimize / interact" boxes on the startpage
>don't give any useful information (all those links are available in the
>"unreadable" text above and in the nice boxes at the bottom. Also their
>format looks like GoogleAds to me, so I mentally filed them away as
>"more ads".
>As they don't appear anywhere else on the website I'd just remove them.
>


This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;)
The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. (and just "a bit usefull" marketing wise, but is that really so important)

kang


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Ingo Bormuth]

On 2005-11-25 15:46, kang wrote:
> 
> This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and 
> probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to 
> be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;)
> The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the 
> bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace 
> thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. 
> (and just "a bit usefull" marketing wise, but is that really so important)
> 

You name it !!! The purple bar is useless, navigation should go to the top.

Want an impression, see: http://public.efil.de/gentoo-www.png



-- 
Ingo Bormuth, voicebox & telefax: +49-12125-10226517          '(~o-o~)'
public key 86326EC9, http://ibormuth.efil.de/contact     ---ooO--(.)--Ooo---

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Matti Bickel]

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Ingo Bormuth <ibormuth@efil.de> wrote:
> On 2005-11-25 15:46, kang wrote:
> > 
> > This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and 
> > probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to 
> > be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;)
> > The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the 
> > bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace 
> > thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. 
> > (and just "a bit usefull" marketing wise, but is that really so important)
> > 
> 
> You name it !!! The purple bar is useless, navigation should go to the top.
> 
> Want an impression, see: http://public.efil.de/gentoo-www.png

I second that. Scrap the (oversized) purple bar und make it plain text.
Get the user navigation up front and not cluttered all over the page.

Personally i'd like the navigation to go to the left, but if that's too
complicated i certainly won't suggest putting it at the bottom. I'd
never look for navigation items below content.

Just my 0,02 cent.
Cheers,
Matti
-- 
Good evening, gentlemen.  I am a HAL 9000 computer.  I became operational
at the HAL plant in Urbana, Illinois, on January 11th, nineteen hundred
ninety-five.  My supervisor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a
song.  If you would like, I could sing it for you.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Grobian]

On 25-11-2005 12:14:53 +0000, kang wrote:
> Curtis Napier wrote:
> 
> > gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should
> > render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on
> > the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as
> > possible.
> >
> IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as
> announced by MS), how is that considered  supported ? Is it even still
> distributed within MacOSX Tiger ?

IE5:mac is a dead end, IMHO.  It isn't shipped with Tiger any more, and
Safari has taken it's place.  This already was the case for Panther as
far as I know (but Panther does ship IE I think).  Since Jaguar and
before are really ancient I think it's not unreasonable to let IE5:mac
have a very low priority in your renderings issue fixing list.  IE5:mac
has always had it's own quirks, but again, it's unsupported and not
maintained anymore.

Camino, Safari and Firefox cover its place quite well on the Mac.

Talking about Camino (which is a native Cocoa/Aqua skin for Firefox more
or less), the site looks fine, only the recent changes in the font
affect it negatively to me.  The fonts are small in the tabs-bar
and shortcut menus (Documentation, Resources and Community).  The text
now looks vertically misaligned to me in the tabs-bar and footer, in
comparison how it was before the font size change.

I could live with it.  Here are some screenies of the font-sizes:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~grobian/Afbeelding%204.png
http://dev.gentoo.org/~grobian/Afbeelding%206.png

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Harald van Dijk]

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On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 12:14:53PM +0000, kang wrote:
> Curtis Napier wrote:
> 
> > gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should
> > render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on
> > the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as
> > possible.
> >
> IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as
> announced by MS), how is that considered  supported ? Is it even still
> distributed within MacOSX Tiger ?

Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I
still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[kang]

Harald van Dijk wrote:

>On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 12:14:53PM +0000, kang wrote:
>  
>
>>Curtis Napier wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should
>>>render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on
>>>the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as
>>>possible.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as
>>announced by MS), how is that considered  supported ? Is it even still
>>distributed within MacOSX Tiger ?
>>    
>>
>
>Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I
>still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do.
>  
>
You might want to try iCab or opera. Well, I'd suggest you to run linux
on it though ;)
Or simple mozilla: http://www.t3.rim.or.jp/~harunaga/mozilla-macos9/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Harald van Dijk]

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On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 03:56:14PM +0000, kang wrote:
> Harald van Dijk wrote:
> >Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I
> >still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do.
> >  
> >
> You might want to try iCab or opera. Well, I'd suggest you to run linux
> on it though ;)
> Or simple mozilla: http://www.t3.rim.or.jp/~harunaga/mozilla-macos9/

Linux can work fine on it, and I'd use that with MOL if I didn't have to
deal with a dead battery not remembering the nvram settings, making
Linux unbootable every time I pull out the cables. :)

iCab has the same CSS issues as IE5 plus more, and as far as I know, all
Mozilla ports require MacOS 8.6 (or higher). An older Opera should work
though, thanks. And assuming it does, no complaints here if the site
won't display right in IE5.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Harald van Dijk]

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On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 02:18:21AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or 
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version 
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari 
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.

It looks good in w3m, except for one minor thing: since background
images don't show, the top left link (a transparent image to show the
background) is simply a large empty block. Could you use a real image
for that, assuming that doesn't break anything in other browsers?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen]

On Monday 21 November 2005 08:18, Curtis Napier wrote:
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
Looking good with Konqueror 3.4.1

I think koon bugged you about a few security project issues.

-- 
Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen (Jaervosz)
Operational Manager
Gentoo Linux Security Team
http://security.gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Nattfodd]

Curtis Napier wrote:

> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
>
> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
>
> After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer
> community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100%
> accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers
> including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation
> tests.
>
> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a
> look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm
> especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty
> programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any
> other accessibilty issues.
>
> Also, I only use GNU/Linux and I have only tested on the following
> browsers:
>
> Mozilla-1.7
> firefox-1.0
> Opera-8.5
> Internet Explorer-6 under CrossOver Office
> Epiphany-1.8.2
> Links-2.1 in text mode and graphics mode.
>
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser
> version in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror
> or Safari so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>
> The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the
> grey bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes
> directly under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of
> what a new Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a
> better idea of what should be included in this menu or think something
> important is being left out please send that in your feedback as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Curtis

Hi,
it shouldn't be a big surprise, but it renders fine with both
firefox-1.5-rc1 (Deer Park) and lynx-2.8.5, on a gentoo/linux box.

Regards,
Alexandre
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[gentoo-dev] Re: status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Duncan]

Curtis Napier posted <438174BD.9060100@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:18:21 -0500:

> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
> 
> Also, I only use GNU/Linux and I have only tested on the following
> browsers:
> 
> Mozilla-1.7
> firefox-1.0
> Opera-8.5
> Internet Explorer-6 under CrossOver Office
> Epiphany-1.8.2
> Links-2.1 in text mode and graphics mode.
> 
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
> 
> The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the grey
> bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes directly
> under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of what a new
> Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a better idea of
> what should be included in this menu or think something important is
> being left out please send that in your feedback as well.

You mention links but not lynx.  I tried it in both lynx and links/text
mode. It's quite impressive in lynx, due to the colors, and decent in
links (but you knew that already).

The following is pointed out *NOT* claiming that I'm a web dev, or
could do any better (or even close to as good).  However, as a browser
user who has had to educate himself a bit due to author assumptions about
defaults that don't always hold. and because you /asked/.  =8^)

*  Set the base tag.  I sometimes save web pages for my own
use, and like them to work when I do. Adding a <base href= ...>
tag would be very useful, here. Without it, saving just the HTML to disk
breaks the page rather drastically, because it can't find the CSS and
images, as they are relative links.  Good to have the links relative; good
the formatting is separated from the content to the degree the page breaks
without the CSS; bad that there's no base href tag to "unbreak" things
when the html page gets viewed on its own.


*  (This may be an inheritance issue.  I didn't check full inheritance
but I'm using Konqueror, so if it's an inheritance bug, that's what
it's in.)  You don't set background color for ads/ads-main or
jumppad-main. What happens if a user's preferences are dark backgrounds,
light text?

- The ad links don't show up, for one thing, because they are set dark and
become almost invisible on a dark background.  (Browser's link color
settings, a foreground item, overruled, without overruling bg prefs, not
good when they happen to be almost the same color!

- The individual jumppads have bg set (good), so the text shows up there,
but they appear contrasted against a dark background, as jumppad-main
doesn't set bg, which doesn't look so good.

- The content column, with bg set to white, contrasts very sharply with
the ad column.

- Generally useful rule -- if you muck about with changing some
colors from the user's/browser's defaults, change both background and
foreground, and consider what the effect will be with both light and dark
defaults, for anything you do /not/ specifically set.  Try viewing the
page in a browser set to light text on dark background, and dark text on
light background, as the defaults, to be sure.  (It's amazing the number
of sites that get this wrong, setting one but not the other on some or all
elemets, or fail to set bgcolor when a bgimage is set, for those who don't
surf with images turned on.)


*  Consider the effects of different user/browser font sizes.  Here, the
white text in the purple boxes (Why Gentoo section) ran into the gray
bottom border at my default text size.  Scrolling text size up, to where
it'd be if I were sight impaired, ran the white text from that area into
the white background area below.  (Scrolling text size down, it fit into
the boxes nicely and was indeed very attractive, so I see the effect you
are going for.)  Perhaps make those images, so the font size is constant
with reference to the boxes intended to contain it?  (You'd then set alt
tags for those not viewing images, of course.)


*  I like the jumppad images!  That's quite impressive and professional
looking, something I'd be proud to show others who know I run Gentoo!


*  Consider making the "Why Choose Gentoo?" section question visible
(something other than display=none). IMO, that would add meaning to the
features bullet-pointed in the purple boxes.  Maybe make that a
purple-background header above that section?


*  Entirely personal preference:  I don't happen to like what I'd call
puke-yellow-green (#83b300), but that's just me.  I'd prefer either a
stronger yellow or a stronger green (or would choose a dark cyan, similar
to the background of the phparchitect ad, for the white backgrounded
stuff, and a lighter cyan similar to that of the sevenl ad, for the dark
backgrounded stuff).  Purple is cool, tho!  =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 12:04, Duncan wrote:
> *  Set the base tag.  I sometimes save web pages for my own
> use, and like them to work when I do. Adding a <base href= ...>
> tag would be very useful, here. Without it, saving just the HTML to
> disk breaks the page rather drastically, because it can't find the CSS
> and images, as they are relative links.  Good to have the links
> relative; good the formatting is separated from the content to the
> degree the page breaks without the CSS; bad that there's no base href
> tag to "unbreak" things when the html page gets viewed on its own.

As the pages are generated from xml, this might be hard to do. Also isn't 
this something that should be done by the downloading program. I know 
that IE does (used to do) this. Wget can do something similar. In any 
case isn't the idea of downloading a page that you also download the 
images and stylesheets, etc. belonging to it. (firefox can also do this).

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Duncan]

Paul de Vrieze posted <200511221120.35372.pauldv@gentoo.org>, excerpted
below,  on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:20:28 +0100:

> On Monday 21 November 2005 12:04, Duncan wrote:
>> *  Set the base tag.  I sometimes save web pages for my own use, and
>> like them to work when I do. Adding a <base href= ...> tag would be
>> very useful, here. Without it, saving just the HTML to disk breaks the
>> page rather drastically, because it can't find the CSS and images, as
>> they are relative links.  Good to have the links relative; good the
>> formatting is separated from the content to the degree the page breaks
>> without the CSS; bad that there's no base href tag to "unbreak" things
>> when the html page gets viewed on its own.
> 
> As the pages are generated from xml, this might be hard to do. Also
> isn't this something that should be done by the downloading program. I
> know that IE does (used to do) this. Wget can do something similar.

Hmm... I don't remember seeing that in IE back around the 4/5/5.5 era, and
as I was a public beta tester and a regular in the public beta groups for
those (and in line at  midnite for '98, MS screwed up for me when they
incorporated the anti-privacy stuff into eXPrivacy... because while I
didn't have such a problem with it per se, I knew where it was headed,
once that sort of stuff was blessed by the kingpin -- to the era of
obiquitous spyware, and rootkits arriving on your CDs from "trusted"
compannies... so I went from in line at midnite for 98 to refusing to
cross the line MS was demanding I cross for eXPrivacy, and I have them to
thank for forcing me to finally defect from the land of proprietaryware,
to the land of freedom in software! =8^), I (like to think) I knew more
about what was in them than even many geeks.

I run Konqueror/KHTML, and obviously it isn't setting it, either. However,
I do run thru privoxy, and may be able to whip up a filter to add it...
I'll have to think a bit...

I've not gotten into wget, much more than being aware it's  often used in
scripted applications including many I rely on here.  Thanks for the
useful hint, however -- I'll keep it filed away as it seems likely to be
found to be useful at some point!

> In any case isn't the idea of downloading a page that you also download
> the images and stylesheets, etc. belonging to it. (firefox can also do
> this).

Well, depending on one's purpose...  As I mentioned, I run privoxy.  A
personal preference is light text on dark background, and one of my
biggest uses of privoxy is a set of filters designed to enforce that
(FWIW, I turned them off and reloaded the site, for purposes of this
thread).  It follows that one of the primary reasons I may be  using
view-source and save-as, is to check the code and create or update the
related privoxy filter expressions.  For such purposes, I'll start with
the html page alone.  Sometimes I need the css as well, sometimes that
only complicates things.  However, if there's a base tag it's simple
enough to comment it out if I need to, while it's a bit more work to
figure out what that base should be manually, and add it, if necessary.

Another purpose for page-only would be if one wants to modify it somewhat
for local use, but that use is going to be with a net connection, and due
to content/format-rull separation with css, there's no need to have the
format rules locally.

Under normal circumstances I surf with images off, so those aren't an
issue, altho if scripting is required on a page (and it's somewhere I feel
reasonably secure turning it on) and the scripts are separate files as
well, those can sometimes be required.

Konqueror does of course have the "everything" aka "web archive" saving
feature as well, but I seldom use it.  The only time in recent memory I've
used it was when I saved the world reaction to 9/11 pages, something I go
back and think about, every once in awhile.  One brief moment, but of
course it didn't last, nor could it have.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Tuesday 22 November 2005 18:45, Duncan wrote:
> I run Konqueror/KHTML, and obviously it isn't setting it, either.
> However, I do run thru privoxy, and may be able to whip up a filter to
> add it... I'll have to think a bit...
>
> I've not gotten into wget, much more than being aware it's  often used
> in scripted applications including many I rely on here.  Thanks for the
> useful hint, however -- I'll keep it filed away as it seems likely to
> be found to be useful at some point!

Konqueror can do some archiving in the tools menu (creates a .war 
archive), but does not save the stuff as html + deps.

Paul

ps. The version of IE that did that was probably already 6, but I'm not 
certain. In any case it would only do it for downloads, not for view 
source.

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Harald van Dijk]

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On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 02:18:21AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or 
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version 
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari 
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.

With IE 5 for Mac, the top bar looks messed up:
  http://dev.gentoo.org/~truedfx/ie5mac.png

I haven't looked for a way to get it displayed right yet; if I find
something before you do, I'll let you know :)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 12:50, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 02:18:21AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> > If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> > Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser
> > version in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror
> > or Safari so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>
> With IE 5 for Mac, the top bar looks messed up:
>   http://dev.gentoo.org/~truedfx/ie5mac.png
>
> I haven't looked for a way to get it displayed right yet; if I find
> something before you do, I'll let you know :)

Probably the easiest way is to use a javascript to fix this for IE5 on 
mac.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Herbert G. Fischer]

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What?? fix for IE?? haha... Why not do the Gentoo's site with XUL?
I think that doing for Safari/Konqueror, Mozilla and IE/Win is suficient,
no?

2005/11/22, Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org>:
>
> On Monday 21 November 2005 12:50, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 02:18:21AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> > > If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> > > Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser
> > > version in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror
> > > or Safari so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
> >
> > With IE 5 for Mac, the top bar looks messed up:
> > http://dev.gentoo.org/~truedfx/ie5mac.png
> >
> > I haven't looked for a way to get it displayed right yet; if I find
> > something before you do, I'll let you know :)
>
> Probably the easiest way is to use a javascript to fix this for IE5 on
> mac.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> Paul de Vrieze
> Gentoo Developer
> Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
> Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:18:21 -0500
Curtis Napier <curtis119@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please
> have a look at the updated site and send any feedback you may
> have. 

Firefox-1.0.7 here, on a 1024x768 screen, and i think there is too
much wasted space. Since i'm not new to Gentoo, when i go to the
front page it's either to follow link to the doc or to read news.
The former is fine, but the later is not (news are the last ~10% of
what i see):
http://tdegreni.free.fr/gentoo/redesign_gentoo_org.png

I'm not good at HTML things so i can't send a patch, but I think the
vertical size of the information boxes on top should be only what
is needed for the text to fit, and not the background image size
or whatever else it is at the moment. And also, there should be
much less white space before the real contents starts.  Modified in
Gimp, it would more looks like that:
http://tdegreni.free.fr/gentoo/redesign_gentoo_org_fixed.png

Oh, and also, i don't really like the "Get Gentoo and compile
software optimaly for your architecture" slogan. Not that it's
completly wrong, but my experience with new users on forums is that
those who came to Gentoo mainly for that reason are usualy
disapointed.  I would rather see something about system
customization in general (i mean, not only CFLAGS but also USE
flag et al., which is much more interresting).  Something like "Get
Gentoo and make your own « sur mesure » system.", but i don't know
how to translate "sur mesure" from french to english.

--
TGL.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Philip Webb]

051121 Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> I would rather see something about system customization in general,
> not only CFLAGS but also USE flag et al, which is much more interresting.
> Something like "Get Gentoo and make your own « sur mesure » system",
> but i don't know how to translate "sur mesure" from french to english.

'custom-made' or perhaps 'home-brewed'.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Lares Moreau]

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On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 07:49 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> 051121 Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> > I would rather see something about system customization in general,
> > not only CFLAGS but also USE flag et al, which is much more interresting.
> > Something like "Get Gentoo and make your own « sur mesure » system",
> > but i don't know how to translate "sur mesure" from french to english.
> 
> 'custom-made' or perhaps 'home-brewed'.
> 
'made-to-order'
-- 
Lares Moreau <lares.moreau@gmail.com>  | LRU: 400755 http://counter.li.org
lares/irc.freenode.net                 |
Gentoo x86 Arch Tester                 |               ::0 Alberta, Canada
Public Key: 0D46BB6E @ subkeys.pgp.net |          Encrypted Mail Preferred
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Gim]

> Firefox-1.0.7 here, on a 1024x768 screen, and i think there is too
> much wasted space. Since i'm not new to Gentoo, when i go to the
> front page it's either to follow link to the doc or to read news.
> The former is fine, but the later is not (news are the last ~10% of
> what i see):
> http://tdegreni.free.fr/gentoo/redesign_gentoo_org.png

Seems like the amount of wasted space grows when fonts size is _reduced_.
I'm no sure why/how such a thing is possible, but for sure it's something
that has to be fixed in order to obtain suitable layouts for a wider set
of firefox settings.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 14:24, Gim wrote:
> Seems like the amount of wasted space grows when fonts size is _reduced_.
> I'm no sure why/how such a thing is possible, but for sure it's something
> that has to be fixed in order to obtain suitable layouts for a wider set
> of firefox settings.
I think the problem is in the sponsors column on the right. The news at the 
centre of the page are centred with the column, and as the column is higher 
than the news, it's that to choose the size of the page itself.
When you reduce the fonts, the size of the images is still fixed, so the 
height of the column changes of a little bit, while the news gets smaller 
again.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 13:07, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:18:21 -0500
>
> Curtis Napier <curtis119@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please
> > have a look at the updated site and send any feedback you may
> > have.
>
> Firefox-1.0.7 here, on a 1024x768 screen, and i think there is too
> much wasted space. Since i'm not new to Gentoo, when i go to the
> front page it's either to follow link to the doc or to read news.
> The former is fine, but the later is not (news are the last ~10% of
> what i see):
> http://tdegreni.free.fr/gentoo/redesign_gentoo_org.png
>
> I'm not good at HTML things so i can't send a patch, but I think the
> vertical size of the information boxes on top should be only what
> is needed for the text to fit, and not the background image size
> or whatever else it is at the moment. And also, there should be
> much less white space before the real contents starts.  Modified in
> Gimp, it would more looks like that:
> http://tdegreni.free.fr/gentoo/redesign_gentoo_org_fixed.png
>

On this respect, I agree, but also would like to be able to have the link 
set at the bottom to be visible without scrolling. Perhaps they could be 
moved to the side of the webpage. On 1280x1024 the text is too wide, and 
in general the news font size seems to be a bit too big. Perhaps we could 
also limit the amount of words in a news message and but the rest of the 
message on a separate page.

In general I think that with the nice banner on gentoo we don't need the 
cow saying "We produce ..." anymore. Perhaps a single line pointing to 
the about page would be enough (yes I know it's also in the menu).

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Herbert G. Fischer]

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Good job!

Shows nice on Firefox 1.0.7, Opera 8.5 and Konqueror 3.4.1!

I don't know if you are accepting suggestions, but I have a few "usability"
ones:

- The top blue bar(s) is too much big. In a 1024x768 screen it takes almost
half the showing page. Maybe decreasing the size of the "second" bar (the
one with detailed BG) and it's contents can be helpful. There are lots of
empty spaces inside this bars.

- The bottom menus are very nice but I think they are in the wrong place.
The natural human being will search for all the site menu items on the top
or "first" page (without scrolling). The rule in this case is to put all
menu items in one place, or, if this items need to be separated, so organize
and group related items. "Docs" in the top then "documentation" right bellow
and "Documentation" on the bottom again is a waist of space, don't you
think?


That was just a few suggestions. Sorry for my "english" writing. It's not my
native language.

Thanks!

Herbert
2005/11/21, Curtis Napier <curtis119@gentoo.org>:
>
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
>
> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
>
> After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer
> community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100%
> accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers
> including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation
> tests.
>
> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a
> look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm
> especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty
> programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any
> other accessibilty issues.
>
> Also, I only use GNU/Linux and I have only tested on the following
> browsers:
>
> Mozilla-1.7
> firefox-1.0
> Opera-8.5
> Internet Explorer-6 under CrossOver Office
> Epiphany-1.8.2
> Links-2.1 in text mode and graphics mode.
>
> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>
> The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the grey
> bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes directly
> under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of what a new
> Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a better idea of
> what should be included in this menu or think something important is
> being left out please send that in your feedback as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Curtis
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Jakub Moc]

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21.11.2005, 13:23:29, Herbert G. Fischer wrote:

> Good job!
 
>  - The bottom menus are very nice but I think they are in the wrong place.
> The natural human being will search for all the site menu items on the top or
> "first" page (without scrolling). The rule in this case is to put all menu
> items in one place, or, if this items need to be separated, so organize and
> group related items. "Docs" in the top then "documentation" right bellow and
> "Documentation" on the bottom again is a waist of space, don't you think?
 
Well, I would like to see them on the left (and really could live without those
illustrative pics accompanying them, but that's just me. ;)


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature ;)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 13:36, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Well, I would like to see them on the left (and really could live without
> those illustrative pics accompanying them, but that's just me. ;)

I don't think they're very useful at the bottom either, but one (imho) 
important improvement of the design compared to what we have now is not 
having a left menu and adverts on the right. The two horizontal menus should 
suffice when you keep one static and one dynamic.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Dale]

Hi,

I'm not sure if you noticed this or are even worried about it yet.  If
you go here:  http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/main/en/morenews.xml then
try to click on the link for Status Update
<http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/status/status_20050630.xml>,
the link is broken.  I hope my copy and paste thing works OK.  It is in
the first paragraph and I get this boo boo message:

>
>   Not Found
>
> The requested URL /proj/en/gdp/status/status_20050630.xml was not
> found on this server.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apache/2.0.54 (Gentoo/Linux) Server at wwwredesign.gentoo.org Port 80
>

Oh, I'm using Gentoo Linux, with all the latest packages, and Mozilla
over a crappy dial-up.  I like the pretty quick load too.  I'm still
poking around but that is all I have found so far.  Oh, I'm not a big
complainer, it looks fine to me.  As long as I can read it, I don't care
about colors and all that other fancy crap.  Just don't use black text
on a black background.  :\

Dale
:-)

-- 
To err is human, I'm most certainly human.

 

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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Alexey Chumakov]

Curtis Napier пишет:

> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser
> version in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror
> or Safari so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.
>
> The only major outstanding issue is the contents of the menu in the
> grey bar at the top and what should appear in the 5 purple boxes
> directly under them. Currently I have that menu listed in order of
> what a new Gentoo user would need to access first. If you have a
> better idea of what should be included in this menu or think something
> important is being left out please send that in your feedback as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Curtis

Hi Curtis,

First of all, thank you for the impressive new design. I really like it!

Technically (@Windows XP SP2 RUS, 1024x768):
Firefox 1.0.7 Rus -- OK
Opera 8.5 Rus -- OK
MSIE 6 Rus -- OK

Some issues to discuss:
1. Why is the gentoo logo changed this way? From (my) designer's point
of view, either an infinity sign or Gentoo 'g' is redundant and
unnecessary.
2. The dark grey table borders at documentation view and print pages are
too 'rough' compared to rather light overall site design.
Could you change them to something more 'airy'?

3. It is, imho, great moment to implement some i18n together with site
redesign. Many of us, i18n teams, have to 'clone' and maintain extensive
community sites just to bypass artificial English-only w.g.o front page
limitation. I think, it is reducing the amount of international Gentoo
newbies. Did you consider to take part in the GLEP10 implementation?

WKR,
Alexey Chumakov
GDP Russian Internationalization Lead

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 14:38, Alexey Chumakov wrote:
>
> Hi Curtis,
>
> First of all, thank you for the impressive new design. I really like
> it!
>
> Technically (@Windows XP SP2 RUS, 1024x768):
> Firefox 1.0.7 Rus -- OK
> Opera 8.5 Rus -- OK
> MSIE 6 Rus -- OK
>
> Some issues to discuss:
> 1. Why is the gentoo logo changed this way? From (my) designer's point
> of view, either an infinity sign or Gentoo 'g' is redundant and
> unnecessary.

This is a feature of the design by Aaron Shi (he designed it). I would 
however prefer it if the infinity sign was composed of two "o" (oh) 
characters placed to overlap eachother. Doing that would make the flow of 
the gentoo word more continuous.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:38:46PM +0300, Alexey Chumakov wrote:
> 3. It is, imho, great moment to implement some i18n together with site
> redesign. Many of us, i18n teams, have to 'clone' and maintain extensive
> community sites just to bypass artificial English-only w.g.o front page
> limitation. I think, it is reducing the amount of international Gentoo
> newbies. Did you consider to take part in the GLEP10 implementation?
[...]

You should already be able to convert most of the web site to your language.
Hard-coded lines can be taken out and changed using the inserts-${lang}.xml
method Xavier implemented. Pages at /{main,doc,proj}/en can be translated
and placed at /{main,doc,proj}/${lang}.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Gentoo Foundation Trustee          |  http://foundation.gentoo.org
  Gentoo Documentation Project Lead  |  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp
  Gentoo Council Member  

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[George Prowse]

Is it possible to have the font from the original Aaron Shi design?

George

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Lares Moreau]

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I don't know if the contents are supposed to be the 'live' website data,
but, after scrolling down to the nice link tables at the bottom,
clicking on GLEPs, the info is outdated. Only up to GLEP 38.

Don't know if that is what you are looking for?

Later Days
-- 
Lares Moreau <lares.moreau@gmail.com>  | LRU: 400755 http://counter.li.org
lares/irc.freenode.net                 |
Gentoo x86 Arch Tester                 |               ::0 Alberta, Canada
Public Key: 0D46BB6E @ subkeys.pgp.net |          Encrypted Mail Preferred
Key fingerprint = 0CA3 E40D F897 7709 3628  C5D4 7D94 483E 0D46 BB6E

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Jan Kundrát]

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On Monday 21 of November 2005 16:08 Lares Moreau wrote:
> I don't know if the contents are supposed to be the 'live' website data,
> but, after scrolling down to the nice link tables at the bottom,
> clicking on GLEPs, the info is outdated. Only up to GLEP 38.
>
> Don't know if that is what you are looking for?

Nope, it's an outdated snapshot.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Olivier Crete]

On Mon, 2005-21-11 at 02:18 -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a 
> look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm 
> especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty 
> programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any 
> other accessibilty issues.

First, in the project pages, it says
"Gentoo Projectscript generated" (all stuck together)

Second, where is the "path bar" that was in the original design. I found
it really useful to help users see where they are inside the tree web
tree. 

Third, the green links in the header are way too dark on the crappy crt
I have at work, and not easy to see where one link ends and the next
starts. Using a lighter color would help.

-- 
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[A. Khattri]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Curtis Napier wrote:

> If you have access to a Macintosh, Windows, *BSD or any other OS or
> Browser please test the site and include your OS and the browser version
> in your feedback. I haven't received feedback from Konqueror or Safari
> so feedback from those browsers would be much appreciated.

On a Mac, looks good in:
Safari 1.3.1
Firefox 1.0.6

Its a complete mess in IE 5.2 on a Mac (but IE5 is weird on Mac in general
and not many people use it in OS X).



-- 


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Luca Barbato]

Curtis Napier wrote:
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.

make the purple bar with portage and the other feature disappear or at 
least 1/2 tall.

Put the Community, Resource, Documentation either on the left in a pane 
or on the top.

the sponsor pane should retain the violet background.

Move back the solid logo instead of the infinity one.

That's all

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Developer		Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Benno Schulenberg]

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Curtis Napier wrote:
> I'm especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses
> accessibilty programs such as screen readers or if you are color
> blind or have any other accessibilty issues.

Not being blind or otherwise visually handicapped, but I use rather 
large letters (18 pixels), do not use the entire screen width for 
the browser window, and like to keep the monitor at low brightness 
levels.  This means that indeed the green in the top bars is too 
dark to read.  And that this green line wraps.  And the text in the 
blabla-bar ("Portage: an easy to use...") flows out of its box (see 
the pngs).  This is both in Konqueror and in Firefox.  In Konqueror 
alone the "Design by" in the bottom line wraps, and the little 
green arrows in the menus at the bottom are missing, which makes it 
hard to see that "Name/Logo Guideline" is a single entry.

What I dislike most is that the links are always underlined.  I've 
got my browsers configured not to underline links, and now this new 
Gentoo style sheet forces these underlines.

The blabla-bar is unneeded, in my opinion it takes up too much 
space, it makes it look too much like a commercial site, and it 
makes the overall page too dark.  Better make the menus that now 
sit at the bottom of the front page sit at the left.  The little 
pictures in those menus are not needed, especially since the one for 
Resources is incomprehensible.  The infinity sign at the top 
doesn't look enough like two O-s, and what is it supposed to refer 
to?  Better use two plain O-s, and make them bend just a little 
toward each other.

Benno

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Petteri Räty]

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Curtis Napier wrote:
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
> 
> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
> 
> After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer
> community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100%
> accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers
> including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation tests.
> 
> I'm asking for everyone (developers and users alike) to please have a
> look at the updated site and send any feedback you may have. I'm
> especially interested in feedback from anyone who uses accessibilty
> programs such as screen readers or if you are color blind or have any
> other accessibilty issues.
> 

http://dev.gentoo.org/~betelgeuse/redesign.png
Here is a screenshot from konqueror. In full screen mode there is a wide
empty white area in the middle.

Regards,
Petteri

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Carsten Lohrke]

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I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed by what I see compared to Aarons 
proposed look¹. 


a) Regarding the space below the two horizontal menus: A continuous image 
looks much better than these "cells" with a lot of useless and redundant 
links above them. If you think the space is wasted - well then drop it at all 
or make the image a small bar so there's more place for imformation.

b) Adverts: Title them as what they are and draw a line between contents and 
adverts. The way it is now is very unfriendly to the reader.

c) The cow pictogram and the text beside it is completely superfluous.

d) I really don't think viewing the cvs is so important for first time users, 
that it needs to be linked that prominent.

e) I like the thre vertical menus with the pictres above them. But from a 
usability point of view it's really questionable to expect a first time user 
finds them instantly when there's so much information on the front page that 
he has to scroll down. Either limit the information and make an extra news 
page (including searchable archive, that's missing atm.) or drop these menus 
at all.

f) Handbook and other links: Usually you want to read the page and not 
metadata about it. The summary/date/author part takes too much place and the 
title is redundant. Make that a box next to the title or what else, but don't 
let the first action a user has to do instead to read to press scroll down.


Carsten


[1] http://www.gentoo.org/images/wwwcontest/contest1_front.png

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[kang]

Carsten Lohrke wrote:

>I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed by what I see compared to Aarons 
>proposed look¹. 
>
>
>  
>
Agreed!

>a) Regarding the space below the two horizontal menus: A continuous image 
>looks much better than these "cells" with a lot of useless and redundant 
>links above them. If you think the space is wasted - well then drop it at all 
>or make the image a small bar so there's more place for imformation.
>  
>
Agreed: the cells are harder to read too, in fact, i think people will
not read any but visually skip them.
So might as well remove them completely.
This said, a design is not just a color theme and a few logo images.
When you remove parts or change them too much, the whole design gets
down. That's probably why we're disappointed vs the original design.
The big image was not just to be visually attractive but also makes the
bridge with the advertisement bar in the original design, for example.
I think it's one of the real major issues.

>b) Adverts: Title them as what they are and draw a line between contents and 
>adverts. The way it is now is very unfriendly to the reader.
>  
>
I think the original design did that nicely.

>c) The cow pictogram and the text beside it is completely superfluous.
>  
>
This stuff could be put into the higher "cell/image" stuff, but nicer
(aka fitting the current design), IMHO. This would solve two issues too ;)

>e) I like the thre vertical menus with the pictres above them. But from a 
>usability point of view it's really questionable to expect a first time user 
>finds them instantly when there's so much information on the front page that 
>he has to scroll down. Either limit the information and make an extra news 
>page (including searchable archive, that's missing atm.) or drop these menus 
>at all.
>  
>
I think they're only useably in the original design point of view:
You *MUST* *SEE* the boxes when you load the page. If you have to scroll
down, it's void, bad, wrong, should be
changed/fixed/made_another_way/removed.

>f) Handbook and other links: Usually you want to read the page and not 
>metadata about it. The summary/date/author part takes too much place and the 
>title is redundant. Make that a box next to the title or what else, but don't 
>let the first action a user has to do instead to read to press scroll down.
>
>
>  
>
I don't know. i think boxes should be a bit avoided.
It looks ok on most pages [
http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/gwn.xml ], only has a problem
when we have a billion of authors/editors [
http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml ]
Maybe if alignement was less messy it would be still acceptable.

However, the title is, 100% redundant.



A few last things:
- On firefox/linux, at least, the right spacing is way too big. It looks
like a right column is missing, while there is no rigth column. Original
design had a way smaller spacing.

- "Older news" looks missaligned for the probably same reason

-the bottom/footer image grey "overline" is more dark above the
"www@gentoo.org" url.
This is from the base design because of the ads boxes design. Either
implement the original ads design (good good! i like it! haha), either
just make it normal i guess :)


Ok, else it's a nice start. I just hope most things get fixed and that
it looks a bit more like original.
Congrats on the long work :)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 21 November 2005 08:18, Curtis Napier wrote:
> This has been cross posted to gentoo-dev and www-redesign.
>
> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
>
> After receiving a ton of very useful feedback from the developer
> community I have updated the redesign. It should now be closer to 100%
> accessible and it should (hopefully) render perfectly in all browsers
> including text only browsers. It now passes XHTML and CSS validation
> tests.

People might also be interested in looking at Aaron's own page for the 
design. It seems to be a bit clearer:

http://www.aaronshi.com/gentoo/

That site also shows that we might want to do some changes to the wording 
of things. (Documentation instead of Docs etc.)

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:21:49 +0100
Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:

> People might also be interested in looking at Aaron's own page
> for the design. It seems to be a bit clearer:
> 
> http://www.aaronshi.com/gentoo/
> 

One thing i notice is that the three bottom menus are only shown on
front page in Aaron's design, whereas they are in the standard
footer for all pages on wwwredesign.g.o. Since i tend to think they
are not really useful when you can't see them without scrolling, i
also tend to prefer Aaron's version on that point.
Sure it has been proposed to have them on the left too, which
would be another approach, but that i don't really know, i'm not
sure it would leave enough space for real contents on small
screens (<=1024 width).

--
TGL.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[lnxg33k]

Looks nice in Firefox-1.0.7-r3 with SyncMaster710N (birghtness 35, contrast 65).

Suggestions (wrt http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org):
1) The additional links in green at the top look out of place, a bit hard to
read, and there lacks any break between the links adding to reading difficulty
and, perhaps, difficulty in accessibility services; I don't run any, but take a
look at http://webxact.watchfire.com.

2) Personally, I kind of like the infinity logo, but coupled with the bubble "g"
is a little too much.

3) The links on the main bar (About, Get G, Docs) could use some separation
between them to help the eye break the links. I thought the bar on
w.aaronshi.com/gentoo did a fine job at that.

4) The next row of cells proclaiming Gentoo's goodness ... Interesting info for
new people, but doesn't look quite right. Cell 2 (Packs + Docs = potential) is
hard to read; perhaps breaking each part into its own line would help, but that
almost creates more issues. Personally, when I see a "Please Donate" button at
the top, it always feels like I'm being hustled. I'd suggest putting it at the
bottom; really, the placement depends on if your point-of-view: if you're paying
for the server or visiting the site. The last thing about this row of cells is
the vertical space could be tightened up; going to play problems with larger
fonts though.

5) The underline scheme used throughout the page for links looks like they
should be acronyms and not links. There are two ways to help distinguish, but
they are conflicting: hover and see if you get a title/acronym or the visual
change of a new underline. In practice there is no real difference between a
title and an acronym. I think the visual changes could be up'ed a bit. The
change of underline style isn't really noticeable. Maybe a slightly different
shade? *shrug*

6) I liked the white background of w.aaronshi.com/gentoo as opposed to the
tinted purple of redesign; it adds more contrast. I also liked, and find them
pretty essential, the breaks between the side bars and the main content.

Lots of suggestions, but I definately like the new look overall.
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