From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EaUrK-0001Hj-K6 for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:06:11 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id jAB95PH3013827; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:05:25 GMT Received: from hera.cwi.nl (hera.cwi.nl [192.16.191.8]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jAB93eCe029088 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:03:40 GMT Received: from pegasus.ins.cwi.nl (pegasus.ins.cwi.nl [192.16.196.142]) by hera.cwi.nl with ESMTP id jAB93dvS018788 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:03:40 +0100 (MET) Received: by pegasus.ins.cwi.nl (Postfix, from userid 10222) id 7D4CEE0049; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:03:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:03:39 +0100 From: Grobian To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two Message-ID: <20051111090339.GB7217@gentoo.org> References: <436CAC58.4090809@gentoo.org> <1131309435.8543.16.camel@mogheiden.gnqs.org> <20051106214747.4e6a9cff@snowdrop.home> <1131382994.8546.34.camel@mogheiden.gnqs.org> <436F9DC6.8040106@gentoo.org> <20051107184153.0530a19a@snowdrop.home> <436FA6DB.1090509@gentoo.org> <1131656137.8511.38.camel@mogheiden.gnqs.org> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1131656137.8511.38.camel@mogheiden.gnqs.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 (Linux 2.6.13-1.1526_FC4, VIM - Vi IMproved 6.3) Organization: Gentoo Foundation, Inc. X-Archives-Salt: 7eb7a792-4de2-4103-857b-aaaf6a5711c0 X-Archives-Hash: 06730dcd0ab9de38b5e848c5e3dfbf65 On 10-11-2005 20:55:37 +0000, Stuart Herbert wrote: Ok, you want a reaction, because you are Feeling Blue[1], right. > On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 20:11 +0100, Grobian wrote: > > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > > That's your first misconception right there. Most users don't sign up > > > for things. > > > > Doesn't matter. > > I think it does. I believe that is the root cause of our difficulty in > getting news to our users. We rely on our users coming to us to find > the news. If they don't do that, they don't get the news. > > Our aim is to put the news in front of 100% of our userbase. Not the > small fractions who check each of the places where news is currently > published. You describe here (and in your diary) the aim to reach 100% of our user base. Wow, nice thing. Discussions on whether you will succeed or not, are out of the question right now, it's just your aim. Good. I hope you will succeed! > > Besides that, I see no arguments why users don't. No proof either. > > No proof?!? > > Did you read the original blog posting which kicked this off? Or the > thread in the forums where our users claim the Apache upgrade was a > surprise - even though this was a well-trailed change? That's just one > change. I scoured the forums a bit and looked what users were telling. I wasn't surprised. What do you expect from a user telling it all doesn't work any more, who doesn't run etc-update just because "after every emerge --upgrade --world it has over 100 files to update"? Such user just ignores the importance of the tool, and will most certainly ignore anything else that we try to help this user. This was just one example. It is a very humble attempt to try and help these users, but they simply chose the wrong Linux distro, because Gentoo expects you to be an system administrator, not a user. At least that's my vision on it. I think we can agree that Gentoo requires a user to know/realise more than a Fedora/SuSe/Ubuntu user. > I don't understand the problem from your point of view. No, scratch > that. I don't understand your point of view. You're coming across to > me as someone who doesn't believe there's a problem that needs solving. I am just in the opinion that we lack a system where users can find the information they need. That would help a certain type of users, absolutely not all of them. So yes, after that, this problem needs solving, perhaps. Personalisation using portage is a sweet thing! Here comes the point where I can express my doubt about the 100%. There are unfortunately users who are too hard to help, if you get what I mean. > I'm tempted to forcibly co-opt you into the PHP team before we put > dev-lang/php live. This would allow you to experience the situation for > yourself. Maybe that would give you another perspective? ;-) Might be a very good excercise for me (and you?). As you might guess from my comment above, I simply think _communication_ is the big problem, as I see being a problem in many places around here. Not that perfect communication solves the problem entirely, but it allows to reply in the sense of 'rtfw'. If you're serious here, feel free to contact me (off-list) to see what we can arrange. [1] http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/gentoo.php/2005/11/10/feeling_blue -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list