[gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Sven Vermeulen]

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Many Gentoo developers have written articles about Linux and Gentoo on
third-party sites. The articles page [1] was originally meant to provide
links to those articles. However, it frequently occurs that links change
(most notably the IBM ones).

Because it is a pain to keep these links in shape, I'm proposing to remove
the page from the Gentoo web site alltogether. Interested users can easily
find those articles by searching on the IBM DW web site themselves.

This idea is also backed up by the fact that not many articles talk about
Gentoo and some of them are outdated (or use an outdated view that has been
superseded by newer methods).

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/articles.xml

-- 
  Documentation project leader - Gentoo Foundation Trustee

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Lance Albertson]

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On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 10:45 +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Many Gentoo developers have written articles about Linux and Gentoo on
> third-party sites. The articles page [1] was originally meant to provide
> links to those articles. However, it frequently occurs that links change
> (most notably the IBM ones).
> 
> Because it is a pain to keep these links in shape, I'm proposing to remove
> the page from the Gentoo web site alltogether. Interested users can easily
> find those articles by searching on the IBM DW web site themselves.
> 
> This idea is also backed up by the fact that not many articles talk about
> Gentoo and some of them are outdated (or use an outdated view that has been
> superseded by newer methods).

Yeah, I'd say thats a good call. If anything, we can list such article
in a GWN which will always be listed on our site somewhere. (Just may
not be easily searchable)

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Many Gentoo developers have written articles about Linux and Gentoo on
> third-party sites. The articles page [1] was originally meant to provide
> links to those articles. However, it frequently occurs that links change
> (most notably the IBM ones).
> 
> Because it is a pain to keep these links in shape, I'm proposing to remove
> the page from the Gentoo web site alltogether. Interested users can easily
> find those articles by searching on the IBM DW web site themselves.
> 
> This idea is also backed up by the fact that not many articles talk about
> Gentoo and some of them are outdated (or use an outdated view that has been
> superseded by newer methods).

It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
articles exist?

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:35:26AM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
> removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
> articles exist?

Google?

It's not our job to index Linux-related articles.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Documentation project leader - Gentoo Foundation Trustee

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:35:26AM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> 
>>It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
>>removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
>>articles exist?
> 
> 
> Google?
> 
> It's not our job to index Linux-related articles.

So I can google for "all Linux-related articles by Gentoo developers"?
It's not all Linux-related articles, so your comment is a bit deceptive.
It's articles by Gentoo developers. And it is our job to be Gentoo. =)

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Olivier Crete]

On Thu, 2005-09-06 at 10:40 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
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> 
> Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:35:26AM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > 
> >>It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
> >>removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
> >>articles exist?
> > 
> > 
> > Google?
> > 
> > It's not our job to index Linux-related articles.
> 
> So I can google for "all Linux-related articles by Gentoo developers"?
> It's not all Linux-related articles, so your comment is a bit deceptive.
> It's articles by Gentoo developers. And it is our job to be Gentoo. =)

I still fail to see why everything done by Gentoo devs belongs on the
Gentoo page. The only article that belongs on the Gentoo page is the one
about the Enoch and how it became Gentoo.

-- 
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
x86 Security Liaison


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Olivier Crete wrote:
> I still fail to see why everything done by Gentoo devs belongs on the
> Gentoo page. The only article that belongs on the Gentoo page is the one
> about the Enoch and how it became Gentoo.

Because it's something relevant to Linux done by a member of our
community. And of course we care what people in our community are doing,
don't we? Well, I guess some of us don't.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Alec Warner]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> 
>>Many Gentoo developers have written articles about Linux and Gentoo on
>>third-party sites. The articles page [1] was originally meant to provide
>>links to those articles. However, it frequently occurs that links change
>>(most notably the IBM ones).
>>
>>Because it is a pain to keep these links in shape, I'm proposing to remove
>>the page from the Gentoo web site alltogether. Interested users can easily
>>find those articles by searching on the IBM DW web site themselves.
>>
>>This idea is also backed up by the fact that not many articles talk about
>>Gentoo and some of them are outdated (or use an outdated view that has been
>>superseded by newer methods).
> 
> 
> It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
> removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
> articles exist?
> 
> Thanks,
> Donnie
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	I have to agree here, something should be left behind.  Many of the 
articles that are linked to have helped me out in the past, and leaving 
some sort of link or "hey go search for these @IBM" would be useful IMHO.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[David Morgan]

On 18:59 Thu 09 Jun     , Alec Warner wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> >It would still be useful to keep the titles and other info, just
> >removing the link. Otherwise, how are people supposed to even know the
> >articles exist?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Donnie
> 
> 	I have to agree here, something should be left behind.  Many of the 
> articles that are linked to have helped me out in the past, and leaving 
> some sort of link or "hey go search for these @IBM" would be useful IMHO.
> 

FWIW, I agree too. It's not like leaving articles.xml or some sort of
replacement is doing any harm, and it is useful.

-- 
djm

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Duncan]

Donnie Berkholz posted <42A884F9.7010006@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:05:45 -0700:

> Olivier Crete wrote:
>> I still fail to see why everything done by Gentoo devs belongs on the
>> Gentoo page. The only article that belongs on the Gentoo page is the one
>> about the Enoch and how it became Gentoo.
> 
> Because it's something relevant to Linux done by a member of our
> community. And of course we care what people in our community are doing,
> don't we? Well, I guess some of us don't.

I'll second DB, here.

Several years ago, when 2.4 was still fairly fresh, and I was switching to
Linux (Mandrake at the time) because eXPrivacy crossed a line I could not
and would not cross, as I was getting ready to switch and doing my
research, it came time to decide what file system I was going to use. 
Googling, I quickly came across /just/ the article (series) I was looking
for, on IBM DeveloperWorks, by someone I knew not from Adam, at the time.

Imagine my surprise, some years later, when I began doing the research
that ultimately lead to my switching to Gentoo, to find that the guy that
wrote that series of articles, was the SAME Daniel Robbins, founder of
what was now Gentoo!

To me, that's a valid link, one that Gentoo should be proud of.  In
deleting that page, it's as if we are trying to wash away some part of our
past, "the bad old days", that we are somehow ashamed of.  To me, that
just doesn't seem right.  Politics is politics and people come and go, but
even if that's NOT the intended message, it will seem to some folks
(myself included) that Gentoo is trying to somehow hide its past, erase a
history that they SHOULD be proud of and continuing to point to, not
helping the tides of time erase.

The same of course goes for other works listed there, by other authors. 
If they were Gentoo contributors and wrote something of value to the FLOSS
community, we should be PROUD to list their works.

....

That said, there remains the practical issue of keeping links updated.  I
see a couple possibilities.

One, there's the idea others floated -- note on the page the problem of
keeping links updated as to why links aren't provided, and suggest
searching on the titles listed, possibly with IBM DeveloperWorks listed
specifically, or otherwise with publisher or original source acknowledged,
to ease the search.

Two, keep the links, but again, specifically acknowledge some of them move
from time to time, list them as last verified links, and display a
feedback mechanism (email, or web form based to prevent email harvesting,
or whatever) prominently asking for reader link update submissions.  If a
reader says a link doesn't work and it's verified, with no new link
immediately available, simply note that it has been verified dead and ask
for updates.  The idea here is to leave the links as well as acknowledging
they may be outdated, but leave the work of providing updates to the
readers.

When I saw the reference to the file systems series, I recognized it but
had to verify for myself it was the same one, which I quickly did.  I
don't recall if I used the on-site link or not, but I would have gladly
done a bit of googling to find it again and provided an updated link if
the site link was bad and the site had asked for updates if necessary.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Shyam Mani]

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On 06/10/2005 08:44 AM, Duncan wrote:

> To me, that's a valid link, one that Gentoo should be proud of.  In
> deleting that page, it's as if we are trying to wash away some part of our
> past, "the bad old days", that we are somehow ashamed of.  To me, that
> just doesn't seem right.  

I think the intention was to remove everything that wasn't maintainable
and didn't have anything to do with politics, but I do agree with you
here. That 3 article series is really, really well written and IMHO
should not be removed from the site. That said, amybe we can can contact
DW and ask for a permalink of sorts? Or if we could mirrior the article
on our site? Any other solutions?

What this would also probably being up is why the bias towards those 3?


- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG Key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Georgi Georgiev]

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maillog: 09/06/2005-20:14:33(-0700): Duncan types
.. snip  ..
> ....
> 
> That said, there remains the practical issue of keeping links updated.  I
> see a couple possibilities.
> 
> One, there's the idea others floated -- note on the page the problem of
> keeping links updated as to why links aren't provided, and suggest
> searching on the titles listed, possibly with IBM DeveloperWorks listed
> specifically, or otherwise with publisher or original source acknowledged,
> to ease the search.
> 
> Two, keep the links, but again, specifically acknowledge some of them move
> from time to time, list them as last verified links, and display a
> feedback mechanism (email, or web form based to prevent email harvesting,
> or whatever) prominently asking for reader link update submissions.  If a
> reader says a link doesn't work and it's verified, with no new link
> immediately available, simply note that it has been verified dead and ask
> for updates.  The idea here is to leave the links as well as acknowledging
> they may be outdated, but leave the work of providing updates to the
> readers.

Three, keep a local copy of the articles unless you're forbidden to.

Four, provide a link to a cached copy, e.g.,
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-fs.html

-- 
\    Georgi Georgiev   \  I hate mankind, for I think myself one of    \
/     chutz@gg3.net    /  the best of them, and I know how bad I am. - /
\   +81(90)2877-8845   \  - Samuel Johnson                             \

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Martin Skjöldebrand]

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On Thursday 09 June 2005 20.05, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > I still fail to see why everything done by Gentoo devs belongs on the
> > Gentoo page. The only article that belongs on the Gentoo page is the one
> > about the Enoch and how it became Gentoo.
>
> Because it's something relevant to Linux done by a member of our
> community. And of course we care what people in our community are doing,
> don't we? Well, I guess some of us don't.

Just wondering.
Who decides what goes on or stays off the list. What criteria should be/is 
used in the process? ("relevant" and/or "significant" are very subjective). 
Is it a "dead" list that should stay in (a possibly edited) a specified form 
forever?

Cheers,

Martin S
-- 
Martin Skjöldebrand (http://www.skjoldebrand.org)
Gentoo Linux: shieldfire @ irc.freenode.net
Scandinavian Archaeology http://www.scandarch.com

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Shyam Mani]

On 06/10/2005 03:09 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:

> my word on it). We are allowed to republish those articles later (as we've
> done with for instance an article about CVS), even in the form of a GuideXML
> document.

Sounds excellent!

> Perhaps we can add all articles to our own repository? If we put a note on
> top stating
>   <note>
>   This article was originally published at the IBM DeveloperWorks website.
>   </note>
> and we get the agreement of the authors we should be all right.

I guess this really is nice. Could we start work on this sometime soon then?

Regards,

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 08:54:49AM +0530, Shyam Mani wrote:
> That said, amybe we can can contact DW and ask for a permalink of sorts? 
> Or if we could mirrior the article on our site? Any other solutions?

I know from Daniel that DW takes the exclusive rights to publish the
articles for the first X months (I believe it was 6 months, but don't take
my word on it). We are allowed to republish those articles later (as we've
done with for instance an article about CVS), even in the form of a GuideXML
document.

Perhaps we can add all articles to our own repository? If we put a note on
top stating
  <note>
  This article was originally published at the IBM DeveloperWorks website.
  </note>
and we get the agreement of the authors we should be all right.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Documentation project leader - Gentoo Foundation Trustee

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 11:39:57AM +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> I know from Daniel that DW takes the exclusive rights to publish the
> articles for the first X months (I believe it was 6 months, but don't take
> my word on it). We are allowed to republish those articles later (as we've
> done with for instance an article about CVS), even in the form of a GuideXML
> document.
[...]

Okay, just to be certain I dug up an old mail from Daniel explaining the IBM
work.

Apparently, they are:
  - written as work for hire
  - property of Tenco Media Corporation or Westtech Information Services
  - Daniel is however allowed to republish them as he sees fit after 6-9
    months with no restrictions except clearly mentioning that the articles
    are property of beforementioned.

In the mail he states that we can republish his articles on Gentoo as long
as we put the following note in each document:

"""
The original version of this article was first published on IBM
developerWorks, and is property of Westtech Information Services. This
document is an updated version of the original article, and contains
various improvements made by the Gentoo Linux documentation team.
"""

So for Daniel's articles, this is no issue. However, we do need explicit
approval for the other articles by the authors.

I propose to start GuideXML'ifying Daniel's articles. I'll leave the details
on the gentoo-doc mailinglist. If anyone sees his or her name on the
articles page as being one of the other authors, mind contacting me with the
approval (or disapproval) of republishing the articles (with or without
modifications)?

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Documentation project leader - Gentoo Foundation Trustee

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Removal of articles.xml from website

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Many Gentoo developers have written articles about Linux and Gentoo on
> third-party sites. The articles page [1] was originally meant to provide
> links to those articles. However, it frequently occurs that links change
> (most notably the IBM ones).
> 
> Because it is a pain to keep these links in shape, I'm proposing to remove
> the page from the Gentoo web site alltogether. Interested users can easily
> find those articles by searching on the IBM DW web site themselves.

BTW, if this is a problem of your time, I would be happy to take over
maintaining this page in the way I'd like to see it. =)

Thanks,
Donnie
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Duncan]

Sven Vermeulen posted <20050610122849.GA12754@gentoo.org>, excerpted
below,  on Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:28:49 +0200:

> In the mail [Daniel Robbins] states that we can republish his articles
> on Gentoo as long as we put the following note in each document:
> 
> """
> The original version of this article was first published on IBM
> developerWorks, and is property of Westtech Information Services. This
> document is an updated version of the original article, and contains
> various improvements made by the Gentoo Linux documentation team. """
> 
> So for Daniel's articles, this is no issue. However, we do need explicit
> approval for the other articles by the authors.
> 
> I propose to start GuideXML'ifying Daniel's articles. I'll leave the
> details on the gentoo-doc mailinglist. If anyone sees his or her name on
> the articles page as being one of the other authors, mind contacting me
> with the approval (or disapproval) of republishing the articles (with or
> without modifications)?

Having my post in the upline as being opposed to the original solution,
thus having some right to an opinion here...

I like this idea very much, and would find it highly appropriate for
Daniel's work, the filesystems article, for instance, both because it's
still very useful and informative (with updates adding the
writeback/ordered/data options for reiserfs, and the like, obviously), and
because IMO it's fitting honor for the author, who after all gave so much
to what Gentoo is today.  The previous possibility of being seen as hiding
and being ashamed of his contributions (tho there were other reasons, so
hopefully, that's all it was, the appearance of...), removing mention of
them and him from the website, is gone. Instead, we're bringing it
in-house, where we can maintain it and ensure permanent access to it.

Not that he's GOD or anything.  Far from it!  <g>  Just, there's some
history there that I believe retains some serious value, in addition to
the purely practical still very good usefulness of the work itself, of
course.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Removal of articles.xml from website

[Shyam Mani]

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On 06/11/2005 12:44 PM, Duncan wrote:

> I like this idea very much, and would find it highly appropriate for
> Daniel's work, the filesystems article, for instance, both because it's
> still very useful and informative (with updates adding the
> writeback/ordered/data options for reiserfs, and the like, obviously), and

The first of this is up now at http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/articles/

We will slowly convert everything possible to GuideXML...will take
sometime though.

Regards,

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG Key    | 0xFDD0E345
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