From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [134.68.220.30]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j57JIVq2008329 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:18:31 GMT Received: from agriffis by smtp.gentoo.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfjbI-0008JP-RK for gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:19:00 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:18:03 -0400 X-OfflineIMAP-1312204884-64676f73656e64-494e424f582e4f7574626f78: 1118171952-0675293242086-v4.0.8 From: Aron Griffis To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] where goes Gentoo? Message-ID: <20050607191803.GU9084@kaf.zko.hp.com> References: <20050606235550.GL9084@kaf.zko.hp.com> <20050607183425.GA29735@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050607183425.GA29735@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-Archives-Salt: 7a204906-c650-457d-80de-84994fed47bd X-Archives-Hash: 5627c7765f010ddb54e55aa095617800 Hello, A user wrote to me personally: > i thought several times if i wanted to reply at all, and after > i wrote my mail if i really should send it out. I finally decided to > send it off list since this might just end up in flames on the list. I hope you don't mind I'm putting this back on the list. If you are concerned, then there are probably others in the same boat. Hopefully my response below will ease their concerns as well as yours. > So here it is: > > On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 07:55:50PM -0400, Aron Griffis wrote: > > Also I find it amusing when people say that Gentoo exists for the > > users. I think that is wrong. Gentoo exists for the *developers*. > > It's our playground, and it's the reason we use a live tree rather > > than switching to an actually sane approach. The users are cool > > because they point out bugs, help solve problems on bugzilla, suggest > > enhancements, provide patches, and notify us of package updates. > > Sometimes they become developers. But the truth is that Gentoo sees > > improvement and maintenance in the areas that appeal to the > > developers. And that is why Gentoo exists for the developers first, > > the users second. > > Sheesh, i really don't know what to say. I really don't have > a problem with developers having fun by doing their work, but > a linux _distribution_ is probably one things intended most directly > at users. I've been a user for a long time, and i always tried to > give something back by filing bug reports or helping other users. > I had the feeling my contribution was welcome and i never wanted to > leech the guys doing development off. As for today, i can say pretty > sure i've given quite an amount of time (and even some money) to > Gentoo. I've had my share of fun with it, but seeing you dividing > people involved in Gentoo into developers (good, have fun, their > playground) and users (bad, but we'll have to live with them) really > makes me speechless. Gentoo should be there for everyone > disregarding if he's developer or not. If you don't like that, turn > of the rsync mirrors and let only devs check out the tree. ;-) > > Maybe i've just gotten your statement really wrong, but as far > i understand it, i really have a bad feeling about it. I entirely see your point, and I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I really appreciate your contributions, and I take pride in helping to fix bugs that affect you and other users. I think it's great that Gentoo is a distribution that has such a welcoming reputation. My point was not that I don't care about users. It was that the developers working on Gentoo are ultimately here because it's a fun project. We decide our own priorities, and none of us is completely self-sacrificial. The areas that see real improvement are the areas that are interesting to the developers. This is a contrast from the commercial distributions, which see improvement in the areas that customers demand, or which management perceives as adding value. Let me give you an example: epm. I wrote epm, a work-alike to rpm. A lot of people use it, and I've gotten a number of feature requests in bugzilla. In response, I often request a patch, then eventually close the bug because no patch is forthcoming. If I were working for paying customers, this would not be an option (provided the feature requests were reasonable). It would be my *responsibility* to cater to the request. In Gentoo, however, developers are able to use their own discretion. This is what I am talking about. (Psst... I'll let you in on a little secret. It doesn't have to be a good patch. If a user gives me a really crappy patch, I'll usually work on an implementation just because I appreciate that they made an effort. Heck, even a detailed and thoughtful description will usually suffice... ;-) I hope that this clears up your confusion and puts us on the same team again. Best regards, Aron -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list