[gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Matthieu Sozeau]

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Hi,
	still on USE flags, I want to either add 'noimage' and 'nomixer' local USE 
flags to dev-ml/ocamlsdl or move them to global (renaming them sdl-noimage 
and sdl-nomixer) as their posivitive counterparts are already used by the 
ruby binding for the same purpose (which should be changed i think). I prefer 
the second solution, as it's general (the local solution is clearly 
redundant) but apparently there's a policy not to have no* global USE flags.

-- Matthieu

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 16:53, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
> Hi,
>  still on USE flags, I want to either add 'noimage' and 'nomixer' local USE

Please stop with these no* use flags. We have use.defaults in each profile, if 
a flag should not be enabled by default.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

On Monday 23 August 2004 11:14 am, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 16:53, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
> > Hi,
> >  still on USE flags, I want to either add 'noimage' and 'nomixer' local
> > USE
>
> Please stop with these no* use flags. We have use.defaults in each profile,
> if a flag should not be enabled by default.

package-specific USE flags benefit from no* USE flags, especially while 
dealing with functionality that most people want

global scope USE flags though should be setup through use.defaults though

recap:
global no* USE == bad
local no* USE == ok sometimes
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 17:40, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> local no* USE == ok sometimes

I disagree. Imho use flags should never need to be enabled to disable 
something. That's not clean.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

On Monday 23 August 2004 12:07 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 17:40, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > local no* USE == ok sometimes
>
> I disagree. Imho use flags should never need to be enabled to disable
> something. That's not clean.

you can disagree all you want, there is no mechanism in portage to work the 
other way, making local no* USE flags a neccessity
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 18:15, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> you can disagree all you want, there is no mechanism in portage to work the
> other way, making local no* USE flags a neccessity

I think the user has to care for local flags; This shouldn't be a problem, 
since they have descriptions. If you - and others - don't think so, then it 
would be better to add a flag after the description in use.local.desc, which 
indicates the default, instead continuing with this annoying 
enable-no-disable circus.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

On Monday 23 August 2004 02:07 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 18:15, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > you can disagree all you want, there is no mechanism in portage to work
> > the other way, making local no* USE flags a neccessity
>
> I think the user has to care for local flags; This shouldn't be a problem,
> since they have descriptions. If you - and others - don't think so, then it
> would be better to add a flag after the description in use.local.desc,
> which indicates the default, instead continuing with this annoying
> enable-no-disable circus.

not when the default behavior from the package and on every other distro out 
there is to have a feature enabled
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 20:26, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 02:07 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> > On Monday 23 August 2004 18:15, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > you can disagree all you want, there is no mechanism in portage to work
> > > the other way, making local no* USE flags a neccessity
> >
> > I think the user has to care for local flags; This shouldn't be a
> > problem, since they have descriptions. If you - and others - don't think
> > so, then it would be better to add a flag after the description in
> > use.local.desc, which indicates the default, instead continuing with this
> > annoying enable-no-disable circus.
>
> not when the default behavior from the package and on every other distro
> out there is to have a feature enabled
> -mike

Um, I should have better written, "sets the default" instead "indicates".


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 23 August 2004 02:34 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> Um, I should have better written, "sets the default" instead "indicates".

like i said earlier, there is no mechanism to 'set the default' for local use 
flags
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Tuesday 24 August 2004 01:50, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> like i said earlier, there is no mechanism to 'set the default' for local
> use flags

And I said add one. My english is bad, but that bad!?


Carsten


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 23 August 2004 07:55 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> And I said add one. My english is bad, but that bad!?

i missed that ... i thought you were suggesting that there is some mechanism 
already through use.local.desc ...

anyways, i dont think we need one since the no* flags serve just fine :p
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 19:00, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 07:55 pm, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> > And I said add one. My english is bad, but that bad!?
> 
> i missed that ... i thought you were suggesting that there is some mechanism 
> already through use.local.desc ...
> 
> anyways, i dont think we need one since the no* flags serve just fine :p

Does make.defaults not work for local flags? Maybe I missed someone
saying this.
-- 
Donnie Berkholz
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wednesday 25 August 2004 04:25 am, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Does make.defaults not work for local flags? Maybe I missed someone
> saying this.

you could put a local USE flag into make.defaults's $USE, but that would 
defeat the purpose of it being 'local' ... especially if the same flag is 
used locally in another package :)

i guess we could file a bug for 'use.local.defaults' ?
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Matthieu Sozeau]

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On Monday 23 August 2004 17:14, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Monday 23 August 2004 16:53, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
> > Hi,
> >  still on USE flags, I want to either add 'noimage' and 'nomixer' local
> > USE
>
> Please stop with these no* use flags. We have use.defaults in each profile,
> if a flag should not be enabled by default.
You mean should be enabled right ?

So the preferred way would be setting 'sdl-image' and 'sdl-mixer' when libsdl 
is installed using use.defaults ?
-- 
"Not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on Sunday. "
- Woody Allen

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 17:58, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
> You mean should be enabled right ?

Right. Forgot to negate the negation. ;)


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Marius Mauch]

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On 08/23/04  Carsten Lohrke wrote:

> On Monday 23 August 2004 16:53, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
> > Hi,
> >  still on USE flags, I want to either add 'noimage' and 'nomixer'
> >  local USE
> 
> Please stop with these no* use flags. We have use.defaults in each
> profile, if a flag should not be enabled by default.

I assume you mean make.defaults ;)

Marius

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Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Monday 23 August 2004 20:14, Marius Mauch wrote:
> I assume you mean make.defaults ;)

Err...xactly. :|


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Matthieu Sozeau]

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Hi,

	so... i have the choice of using no* local flags or setup make.defaults with 
sdl-image and sdl-mixer global flags. I find those a little too specific to 
make it in make.defaults, so i wouldn't mind using no* flags as a temporary 
solution (and i will if no one objects). Adding a + syntax to use.
{local.}desc, like "dev-ml/ocamlsdl:+image - Adds support for sdl-image 
(unset at your own risk)" would be useful (that is it would completely solve 
the no* flags problem).
-- 
BOFH Excuse #95: Pentium FDIV bug

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 25 August 2004 10:28 am, Matthieu Sozeau wrote:
>  so... i have the choice of using no* local flags or setup make.defaults
> with sdl-image and sdl-mixer global flags. I find those a little too
> specific to make it in make.defaults, so i wouldn't mind using no* flags as
> a temporary solution (and i will if no one objects). Adding a + syntax to
> use. {local.}desc, like "dev-ml/ocamlsdl:+image - Adds support for
> sdl-image (unset at your own risk)" would be useful (that is it would
> completely solve the no* flags problem).

actually, how is this for an idea ...
instead of a file many people would have to update and sync across different 
profiles (huge pita, look at some of the virtual issues for example), what 
about if we extend the IUSE syntax ?  then maintainers of their own ebuilds 
can determine 'default' USE setting on a per-package and even per-version 
basis ...

for example i'll use nano since i maintain it:
IUSE="nls build spell justify debug slang ncurses nomac"
here we will consider 'justify' and 'nomac' ... the defaults from upstream is 
to enable justify and mac conversion support ... however, as the maintainer 
of the ebuild, i've selected disabling justify and enabling mac conversion as 
the defaults, generating the ugly 'nomac' in the process ... in the new 
world, i'd utilize this:
IUSE="nls build spell +justify debug slang ncurses +mac"

now, whenever a user does not have 'justify' or 'mac' in their USE, either in 
the positive (USE=justify) or in the negative (USE=-justify), portage would 
turn around and add justify and mac to USE for this package/version for us

what do you guys think ?
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Thursday 26 August 2004 00:14, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> what do you guys think ?

You have my vote.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Andrew Ross]

On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 08:29, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Thursday 26 August 2004 00:14, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > what do you guys think ?
> 
> You have my vote.

As a user, you have my vote too.

Cheers

Andrew


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 25 August 2004 11:11 pm, Andrew Ross wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 08:29, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> > On Thursday 26 August 2004 00:14, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > what do you guys think ?
> >
> > You have my vote.
>
> As a user, you have my vote too.

well then, since ive gotten nothing but positive support from the mailing 
lists / irc, i've filed this bug:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61732
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Spider]

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begin  quote
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:14:10 -0400
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 
> world, i'd utilize this:
> IUSE="nls build spell +justify debug slang ncurses +mac"
> 
> now, whenever a user does not have 'justify' or 'mac' in their USE,
> either in the positive (USE=justify) or in the negative
> (USE=-justify), portage would  turn around and add justify and mac to
> USE for this package/version for us
 
> what do you guys think ?


I think that a few users will be fairly confused by it.  Whopp di doo ,
no biggie. 

However, I like the idea, quite a lot really. It would allow us
developers who really know whats best for the user, even if they insist
on "choices" and all that, to throw out a decent default.  We do that
for the whole system,  and lets face it. Users shouldn't need to make a
lot of choices just to get decent defaults.  Choices come after this.

( Repeat after me: users shouldnt -have- to make choices. They should
have the possibility to make choices. )


idea++
//Spider

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Tortured users / Laughing in pain
See Microsoft KB Article Q265230 for more information.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Thursday 26 August 2004 00:29, Spider wrote:
> However, I like the idea, quite a lot really. It would allow us
> developers who really know whats best for the user, even if they insist
> on "choices" and all that, to throw out a decent default.  We do that
> for the whole system,  and lets face it. Users shouldn't need to make a
> lot of choices just to get decent defaults.  Choices come after this.

It also would make sense in any case. For example, take the java useflag. In 
mozilla and other webbrowsers it allows running java plugins (makes a lot of 
sense). However in for example the sys-libs/db ebuild it will build the java 
bindings. There is no package depending on those bindings and almost no-one 
will need them (esp. with the new java based db that is native and faster). 
Currently however we can't make per package choices so we are in a limbo of 
enabling or disabling the useflag by default. Of course this has been caused 
in a big part by useflag overloading where one useflags has different 
meanings to different packages. I think this way would be a good way to 
battle it (besides package specific explanation/descriptions)

Paul

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Eldad Zack]

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On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 01:14, Mike Frysinger wrote:

> actually, how is this for an idea ...
> instead of a file many people would have to update and sync across different 
> profiles (huge pita, look at some of the virtual issues for example), what 
> about if we extend the IUSE syntax ?  then maintainers of their own ebuilds 
> can determine 'default' USE setting on a per-package and even per-version 
> basis ...

> now, whenever a user does not have 'justify' or 'mac' in their USE, either in 
> the positive (USE=justify) or in the negative (USE=-justify), portage would 
> turn around and add justify and mac to USE for this package/version for us

I think it is a great idea.

The only thing against it is that if a user didn't set the flag for
herself, and between versions the defaults have changed...
But on the other hand, it can be considered a good thing.

-- 

Eldad Zack <eldad@gentoo.org>
Key/Fingerprint at pgp.mit.edu, ID 0x96EA0A93

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New local or global USE flags for sdl bindings: noimage & nomixer

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Thursday 26 August 2004 00:14, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> actually, how is this for an idea ...
> instead of a file many people would have to update and sync across
> different profiles (huge pita, look at some of the virtual issues for
> example), what about if we extend the IUSE syntax ?  then maintainers of
> their own ebuilds can determine 'default' USE setting on a per-package and
> even per-version basis ...

I think it's a great idea. It would be a big step into really serious local 
useflags (automatic /etc/portage/package.use storage being the missing link). 
However I think that for this to be viable, we really really need those 
useflag dependencies in portage.

Paul

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Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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