[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

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I would like to create a GLEP for the implementation of an official 
section of gentoo.org for blogs. Projects such as mozilla have had 
great success with this. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org (I like to Read 
Asa's blog)


Fans of the mozilla project read these developer's blogs with great 
interest and frequency. In addition, it helps to garner interest in the 
project and the blog's comment feature (where users can respond to 
developers and developers can respond to users) makes users have a more 
interactive role in the project. Mozilla fanatics (such as myself and 
other people I know) frequently find a wealth of interesting material 
in these developer's blogs and they email interesting posts to their 
friends, some of whom would never otherwise have heard of mozilla. 
These blog subjects aren't always about mozilla, which makes them even 
more interesting. I found Asa's blog interesting during the mars rover 
project because he created transcripts of the NASA press conferences, 
for example.

This would be a great mechanism for getting people more interested in 
the Gentoo project. In addition, it would give developers a way to send 
messages to the community and help users get more aquatinted with 
developer's personality, which, in turn, would foster an even stronger 
sense of community between users and developers.

Before I create the GLEP, i'd like to see what users and developers 
think about this blog idea. Because I want to get both the developers' 
and users' opinion, I'm sending this message to both gentoo-dev and 
gentoo-user. I hope you guys feel as enthusiastic about this as I do.

alexander@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jason Stubbs]

On Sunday 15 August 2004 23:29, Alexander Plank wrote:
> Before I create the GLEP, i'd like to see what users and developers
> think about this blog idea. Because I want to get both the developers'
> and users' opinion, I'm sending this message to both gentoo-dev and
> gentoo-user. I hope you guys feel as enthusiastic about this as I do.

Good enough place to stick my nose in..

The idea sounds good and all that, but in all honesty I wouldn't have time to 
keep it updated _at all_. Makes it pretty useless to me and users...

Regards,
Jason Stubbs

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 15:29, Alexander Plank wrote:
> I would like to create a GLEP for the implementation of an official
> section of gentoo.org for blogs. Projects such as mozilla have had
> great success with this. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org (I like to Read
> Asa's blog)

We're looking to setup a Planet Gentoo; I'm just waiting for someone to 
volunteer their time to produce a theme for www-apps/planet for us.  But this 
will rely on you having your own blog somewhere.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
                                                   http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/

GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Kurt Lieber]

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On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 03:54:47PM +0100 or thereabouts, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> We're looking to setup a Planet Gentoo; I'm just waiting for someone to 
> volunteer their time to produce a theme for www-apps/planet for us.  But this 
> will rely on you having your own blog somewhere.

Stuart -- when you and I discussed this, I thought we agreed that any blog
solution would be able to support folks who didn't already have a blog.  If
I misunderstood our conversation or didn't make that requirement clear,
then I apologize.  It is, however, a requirement for getting a blog
implemented.

Also, we need to make sure that there is demand for this before we
implement it. 

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 16:01, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> Stuart -- when you and I discussed this, I thought we agreed that any blog
> solution would be able to support folks who didn't already have a blog.  If
> I misunderstood our conversation or didn't make that requirement clear,
> then I apologize.  It is, however, a requirement for getting a blog
> implemented.

That's not a problem.  There are a number of blogging packages in Portage.  We 
just need to pick one (or add another one if there's something out there that 
better meets our requirements), emerge it, and make it available to devs.

> Also, we need to make sure that there is demand for this before we
> implement it.

Sure.  Although I have to say that it's the sort of thing that any credible 
open-source of our size should be putting in place.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
                                                   http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/

GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Kurt Lieber]

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On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 04:07:14PM +0100 or thereabouts, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> Sure.  Although I have to say that it's the sort of thing that any credible 
> open-source of our size should be putting in place.

Putting it in place is only half of the equation.  If we make it available
and nobody uses it, that almost makes us look *less* credible than if we
never had it at all.

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

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I will use it. I'd like to get a read on how many other developers 
would also use it. I have started a list on a wiki for interested 
developers to sign:

http://penguincluster.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/BlogInterest

On Aug 15, 2004, at 11:12 AM, Kurt Lieber wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 04:07:14PM +0100 or thereabouts, Stuart 
> Herbert wrote:
>> Sure.  Although I have to say that it's the sort of thing that any 
>> credible
>> open-source of our size should be putting in place.
>
> Putting it in place is only half of the equation.  If we make it 
> available
> and nobody uses it, that almost makes us look *less* credible than if 
> we
> never had it at all.
>
> --kurt


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 11:12 am, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> Putting it in place is only half of the equation.  If we make it available
> and nobody uses it, that almost makes us look *less* credible than if we
> never had it at all.

i havent paid much attention to the whole planet gentoo idea, but will 
blogging be open to users as well ?
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 19:30, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> i havent paid much attention to the whole planet gentoo idea, but will
> blogging be open to users as well ?
> -mike

I'd love to see a calendar of upcoming events w/ (a la what www.php.net does), 
which should be open to users to post about their events.

Not quite sure how adding users' blogs to planet gentoo would work tho.  It's 
probably much easier all round to keep it to those w/ @gentoo.org addresses.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
                                                   http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/

GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

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Can I participate in the blog? Still need more people?

Stuart Herbert wrote:
| On Sunday 15 August 2004 19:30, Mike Frysinger wrote:
|
|>i havent paid much attention to the whole planet gentoo idea, but will
|>blogging be open to users as well ?
|>-mike
|
|
| I'd love to see a calendar of upcoming events w/ (a la what
www.php.net does),
| which should be open to users to post about their events.
|
| Not quite sure how adding users' blogs to planet gentoo would work
tho.  It's
| probably much easier all round to keep it to those w/ @gentoo.org
addresses.
|
| Best regards,
| Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

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- -Having user's blogs added to planet gentoo would probably not work, 
considering the number of users we have. I think the point of the blog 
is to give users insight into who the developer's really are.  I assume 
we aren't looking into starting a blog hosting service for anyone who 
wants a blog and happens to use gentoo.

Also, on an unrelated note, are we going to use wordpress?

On Aug 15, 2004, at 2:37 PM, Stuart Herbert wrote:

> On Sunday 15 August 2004 19:30, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> i havent paid much attention to the whole planet gentoo idea, but will
>> blogging be open to users as well ?
>> -mike
>
> I'd love to see a calendar of upcoming events w/ (a la what 
> www.php.net does),
> which should be open to users to post about their events.
>
> Not quite sure how adding users' blogs to planet gentoo would work 
> tho.  It's
> probably much easier all round to keep it to those w/ @gentoo.org 
> addresses.
>
> Best regards,
> Stu
> -- 
> Stuart Herbert                                              
> stuart@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Developer                                       
> http://www.gentoo.org/
>                                                    
> http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/
>
> GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
> Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C
> --
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:47:28 -0400 Alexander Plank
<alexander@gentoo.org> wrote:
| I think the point of the blog is to give users insight into who the
| developer's really are.

Which developer's what?

(Please pretend that this is a serious observation on professionalism,
writing standards for things appearing on .gentoo.org and not making
Gentoo developers look like a bunch of semi-literate thirteen year old
girls from California. It isn't, but as I can't quite summon up the
enthusiasm required to write a proper rant you'll just have to make do
with few sarcastic side-remarks.)

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Sparc, MIPS, Vim, Fluxbox)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Bryan D. Stine]

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Stop cluttering our ML's. Do it off-list next time if you really feel the need 
to get your point across, please.

On Sunday August 15, 2004 3:06 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:47:28 -0400 Alexander Plank
>
> <alexander@gentoo.org> wrote:
> | I think the point of the blog is to give users insight into who the
> | developer's really are.
>
> Which developer's what?
>
> (Please pretend that this is a serious observation on professionalism,
> writing standards for things appearing on .gentoo.org and not making
> Gentoo developers look like a bunch of semi-literate thirteen year old
> girls from California. It isn't, but as I can't quite summon up the
> enthusiasm required to write a proper rant you'll just have to make do
> with few sarcastic side-remarks.)

-- 
Bryan D. Stine
<battousai@gentoo.org>

"Wade Boggs...goes down smooth."
 --Hank Aaron XXIV, 998 years from now

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:56:10 -0400 "Bryan D. Stine"
<battousai@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Stop cluttering our ML's. Do it off-list next time if you really feel
| the need to get your point across, please.

'Clutter' would be adding in yet more inane noise to a site which is
already extremely difficult to navigate. 'Clutter' would be filling up
gentoo.org with "I went shopping today and bought some new socks". This
'clutter' will divert resources from where they're needed into trivial
banalities.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Sparc, MIPS, Vim, Fluxbox)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 04:09 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> "I went shopping today and bought some new socks".

actually i would buy some socks if they had little larry the cows on them ...

does cafepress do socks ?
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

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Sadly, Cafepress doesn't do socks. They do dog tee shirts and thongs, 
however.

On Aug 15, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote:

> On Sunday 15 August 2004 04:09 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> "I went shopping today and bought some new socks".
>
> actually i would buy some socks if they had little larry the cows on 
> them ...
>
> does cafepress do socks ?
> -mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jason Huebel]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 3:22 pm, Alexander Plank wrote:
> Sadly, Cafepress doesn't do socks. They do dog tee shirts and thongs,
> however.

Dog thongs? That's a disgusting thought. ;-)

-- 
Jason Huebel
Gentoo/amd64 Strategic Lead
Gentoo Developer Relations/Recruiter

GPG Public Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9BA9E230

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."
Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

Jason Huebel wrote:

>On Sunday 15 August 2004 3:22 pm, Alexander Plank wrote:
>  
>
>>Sadly, Cafepress doesn't do socks. They do dog tee shirts and thongs,
>>however.
>>    
>>
>
>Dog thongs? That's a disgusting thought. ;-)
>
>  
>
Only to the dogs with taste.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Patrick Audley]

On Sunday 15 August 2004 15:16, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> actually i would buy some socks if they had little larry the cows on them
>
> does cafepress do socks ?
> -mike

Not sure but I'm starting up a sock factory in Vietnam (no kidding...) and 
it's completely computerized.  If you can't get them elsewhere maybe I'll 
kick off a run of gentoo socks :)


-- 
It seems everything in the world gets more valuable as it ages- except
the human body.                    -Ken Roesler
...
Patrick Audley                          paudley@blackcat.ca
Rubicon Enterprises/Blackcat Systems                     
Vancouver, Saigon, UK                   http://blackcat.ca

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Carsten Lohrke]

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Am Sonntag, 15. August 2004 22:09 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
> 'Clutter' would be filling up
> gentoo.org with "I went shopping today and bought some new socks". This
> 'clutter' will divert resources from where they're needed into trivial
> banalities.

Somehow I'm under the impression, that you're always against, Ciaran - at
least in this mailing list. In this case I share your opinion, but why should
we care about the prattle in blog's? They represent personal opinions, ideas,
etc. and not Gentoo. Unless no one politicizes, but talks about his
evil-smelling socks - if there is interest...

On the other hand I don't really understand what's the purpose of blog's is.
Do you really have something to say, that's worth written - I mean regularly?
We have the GWN already. Why not adding a "opinion" section? It could be open
for developers and users and would have the advantage of a little review,
which would force everyone to think twice, if a thought is worth to write
down and to elaborate it. Additionally it is a single source and not a
per-developer thing. Or is this more about ego?


Carsten
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

The blogs wouldn't need to be about socks or anything personal. Take a 
look at these blogs:

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/

These are very interesting, informative, and are mostly about Mozilla.


This one is not mozilla oriented but is nevertheless interesting:

http://imajes.info/

Carsten Lohrke wrote:

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>
>Am Sonntag, 15. August 2004 22:09 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
>  
>
>>'Clutter' would be filling up
>>gentoo.org with "I went shopping today and bought some new socks". This
>>'clutter' will divert resources from where they're needed into trivial
>>banalities.
>>    
>>
>
>Somehow I'm under the impression, that you're always against, Ciaran - at
>least in this mailing list. In this case I share your opinion, but why should
>we care about the prattle in blog's? They represent personal opinions, ideas,
>etc. and not Gentoo. Unless no one politicizes, but talks about his
>evil-smelling socks - if there is interest...
>
>On the other hand I don't really understand what's the purpose of blog's is.
>Do you really have something to say, that's worth written - I mean regularly?
>We have the GWN already. Why not adding a "opinion" section? It could be open
>for developers and users and would have the advantage of a little review,
>which would force everyone to think twice, if a thought is worth to write
>down and to elaborate it. Additionally it is a single source and not a
>per-developer thing. Or is this more about ego?
>
>
>Carsten
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>--
>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>  
>


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Sunday 15 August 2004 23:16, Alexander Plank wrote:
> The blogs wouldn't need to be about socks or anything personal. Take a
> look at these blogs:

Um, this wasn't the request to send me example urls. I know what a blog is. I 
still don't see the purpose. It's always the view point of a single 
individual, which is pretty uninteresting in the long run. It's like having 
subscribed a newspaper and reading only the articles from a single author. 

And no, I don't have the time or interest to read multiple blogs.


Carsten
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Alexander Plank]

Thats not really true. Some of the blogs I showed you didn't portray 
information from the point of view of a single individual.  Also, the 
planet gentoo will be a pot pourri of differen't developers blogs. I'm 
not going to pointlessly argue with you on this, as I see you have 
already made up your mind.

Carsten Lohrke wrote:

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>
>On Sunday 15 August 2004 23:16, Alexander Plank wrote:
>  
>
>>The blogs wouldn't need to be about socks or anything personal. Take a
>>look at these blogs:
>>    
>>
>
>Um, this wasn't the request to send me example urls. I know what a blog is. I 
>still don't see the purpose. It's always the view point of a single 
>individual, which is pretty uninteresting in the long run. It's like having 
>subscribed a newspaper and reading only the articles from a single author. 
>
>And no, I don't have the time or interest to read multiple blogs.
>
>
>Carsten
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>
>  
>


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Brian Harring]

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On Sun, 2004-08-15 at 16:42, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> Um, this wasn't the request to send me example urls. I know what a blog is. I 
> still don't see the purpose. It's always the view point of a single 
> individual, which is pretty uninteresting in the long run. It's like having 
> subscribed a newspaper and reading only the articles from a single author. 
This analogy kind of sucks, frankly- a paper is providing news, doesn't
really matter much which author (granted the quality of the article is
dependant on the author).  Where gentoo blogs would shine, is in giving
devs a way to actually expose to the community info about the
goofy/neato lil project they're working on.  I'm not going to go to
alexander's blog if I want to see what's going on embedded wise, I'd go
to spanky/vapiers or solar's.  
> 
> And no, I don't have the time or interest to read multiple blogs.
Fair enough, don't maintain a blog then. :-)

People keep pointing out that this will detract resources/time that
could be allocated elsewhere; the only true resources that would be
required is hosting/maintenance of the software (infra).  The decision
of whether it's ultimately a worthy use of resources would fall to them
imo.

If a dev wishes to maintain a blog, it's their choice, and it's their
time to allocate as they see fit.

> We have the GWN already. Why not adding a "opinion" section? 
You're trivializing blogs by assuming it's automatically going to be
opinion drivel; this may be the case, but honestly, that's the author's
discretion.  If this goes ahead, and all the blogs are is opinion's,
fine, we yank it (they can host their own blog if they want to expound
on why vim rocks and emacs sucks).

To head off the "if they're doing something interesting, and want to let
people know about it they should get it into the gwn", sure, except most
devs likely won't- we've had the gwn for at least a year or two, and the
only bits that make it into the gwn are typically notices about upcoming
things users need to be aware of.  In my eyes, the GWN is a user
resource; blogs would function as a dev resource, a way to get info out
there for those users who might be interested.

Pretty much, give them a shot.  If gentoo-blogs suck, we ixnay the
project, and a lesson learned.
 ~brian

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 16 August 2004 05:56, Brian Harring wrote:
> > And no, I don't have the time or interest to read multiple blogs.
>
> Fair enough, don't maintain a blog then. :-)

Never. :)

> If a dev wishes to maintain a blog, it's their choice, and it's their
> time to allocate as they see fit.

Right.

> > We have the GWN already. Why not adding a "opinion" section?
>
> You're trivializing blogs by assuming it's automatically going to be
> opinion drivel; this may be the case, but honestly, that's the author's
> discretion.  If this goes ahead, and all the blogs are is opinion's,
> fine, we yank it (they can host their own blog if they want to expound
> on why vim rocks and emacs sucks).

Oh, I like opinions, even if I have to disagree. A rant about something that 
not works is not that bad, if it results in a set of fixes.

> In my eyes, the GWN is a user
> resource; blogs would function as a dev resource, a way to get info out 
> there for those users who might be interested.

Can't follow here. I expect important dev stuff to be discussed in the mailing 
lists. Both blogs and GWN are aimed at users, imho. I would still prefer a 
single ressource with a little quality review.


Carsten
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Sami Samhuri]

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* It was Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 11:42:28PM +0200 when Carsten Lohrke said:
> 
> On Sunday 15 August 2004 23:16, Alexander Plank wrote:
> > The blogs wouldn't need to be about socks or anything personal. Take a
> > look at these blogs:
> 
> Um, this wasn't the request to send me example urls. I know what a blog is. I 
> still don't see the purpose. It's always the view point of a single 
> individual, which is pretty uninteresting in the long run. It's like having 
> subscribed a newspaper and reading only the articles from a single author. 

What about a blog like the Xfce devs have? It's just one page where all
the devs post. (http://xfce.org/blog)

Obviously (if there is interest) since Gentoo is a larger project one
blog would be too messy, but maybe a blog per herd or something along
those lines would be appropriate.
 
> And no, I don't have the time or interest to read multiple blogs.

Considering how busy the devs are, I don't think you would see many of
them posting more than once or twice a week.

-- 
Sami Samhuri

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Olivier Crete]

On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 12:28 -0700, Sami Samhuri wrote:
> Obviously (if there is interest) since Gentoo is a larger project one
> blog would be too messy, but maybe a blog per herd or something along
> those lines would be appropriate.

Why not just use a planet for that?

Actually just setting up a planet and letting the devs use other sites
for blogs would be a nice step forward... That's what the gnome folk's
do and it works pretty well... If we do that I might even re-start
blogging in english.


-- 
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:02:53 +0200 Carsten Lohrke <carlo@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Am Sonntag, 15. August 2004 22:09 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
| > 'Clutter' would be filling up
| > gentoo.org with "I went shopping today and bought some new socks".
| > This'clutter' will divert resources from where they're needed into
| > trivial banalities.
| 
| Somehow I'm under the impression, that you're always against, Ciaran -
| at least in this mailing list.

Naah, I just don't bother emailing when I agree with something...

| On the other hand I don't really understand what's the purpose of
| blog's is. Do you really have something to say, that's worth written -
| I mean regularly? We have the GWN already. Why not adding a "opinion"
| section?

Good idea, I like that idea much more.

(See, that's why I don't bother emailing when I agree with things...)

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Sparc, MIPS, Vim, Fluxbox)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg]

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On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 03:12:02PM +0000, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 04:07:14PM +0100 or thereabouts, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> > Sure.  Although I have to say that it's the sort of thing that any credible 
> > open-source of our size should be putting in place.
> 
> Putting it in place is only half of the equation.  If we make it available
> and nobody uses it, that almost makes us look *less* credible than if we
> never had it at all.

From cursory inspection of the interest list
(http://penguincluster.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/BlogInterest), there does indeed seem to
be grounds for some kind of journaling system.

I think the promise of a journal is for users, but also *other devs* to get
into the eachothers' mindsets. Doing brain-dumps about sweeping changes or
wild ideas to the mailing lists are generally frowned upon. The same is
encouraged in journals, thus allowing for an ounce of better understanding,
when apparently illogical new schemes are set into motion.


However, it should be noted, that as each journal is also a personal ranting
space, the ratio of incendiary comments on the journals are likely to be
higher than on the mailing lists (though probably less than the forums;)

Hopefully, they'll be contained to the journal at hand.


-- Karl T





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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Why not a wiki instead?

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

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Bad signature.
There is already a gentoo wiki: gentoo-wiki.com

Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
| Why not a wiki instead?
|
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Ioannis Aslanidis <aioannis@tinet.org> writes:

> Bad signature.

Are you sure it is not just your client?

> There is already a gentoo wiki: gentoo-wiki.com

Yes.  A wiki allows you to do everything that a weblog allows, and
more.

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Joshua Brindle]

Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:

>Ioannis Aslanidis <aioannis@tinet.org> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Bad signature.
>>    
>>
>
>Are you sure it is not just your client?
>
>  
>
>>There is already a gentoo wiki: gentoo-wiki.com
>>    
>>
>
>Yes.  A wiki allows you to do everything that a weblog allows, and
>more.
>  
>
Except this isn't an official wiki and therefore means nothing as far as 
official support. Additionally this is probably violating our trademarks 
(Gentoo name and logo) and has nothing in the disclaimer even saying who 
those trademarks belong to.

Joshua Brindle

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Joshua Brindle <method@gentoo.org> writes:

> [snip]

> Except this isn't an official wiki and therefore means nothing as far as 
> official support. Additionally this is probably violating our trademarks 
> (Gentoo name and logo) and has nothing in the disclaimer even saying who 
> those trademarks belong to.

Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
in the forums.

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Peter Johanson]

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On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 07:23:40PM -0400, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> Joshua Brindle <method@gentoo.org> writes:
> 
> Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
> gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
> wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
> wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
> make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
> allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
> it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
> in the forums.

We weren't talking about tutorials. The goal (as i saw it) was to
provide a means for people to 1) get a sense of who are developers
actually are. 2) get a medium for devs to discuss work they're doing.

I know 2) could fall under GWN, but what about when what a dev is doing
is something not ready for prime time, but just something they're
starting on, etc. Something more immediate than the "submit a story to
GWN, wait a week" stuff.

This is not to say that an official wifi is a bad idea, just that the
wifi idea seems fundamentally different from something along the lines
of planet.gnome.org.

-pete

> 
> -- 
> Jeremy Maitin-Shepard



-- 
Peter Johanson
<latexer@gentoo.org>

Key ID = 0x6EFA3917
Key fingerprint = A90A 2518 57B1 9D20 9B71  A2FF 8649 439B 6EFA 3917

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Peter Johanson <latexer@gentoo.org> writes:

> [snip]

> We weren't talking about tutorials.

I just mentioned the tutorials that currently reside in the forums as a
reason for creating a non-dev-writable section of it.

> The goal (as i saw it) was to provide a means for people to 1) get a
> sense of who are developers actually are.

I don't think it makes sense to provide an official place for developers
to post personal information or content otherwise unrelated to Gentoo.
Things not particularly related to Gentoo could be posted or linked to
From the developer's dev.gentoo.org web space, but overly personal
things probably do not belong even there.

> 2) get a medium for devs to discuss work they're doing.

This is something I think is certainly useful to support, and I think
the flexibility of a wiki over a weblog would be useful.  Posting
information about some project becomes easy -- you create a page for it,
and then add a link somewhere appropriate in the Wiki.

> I know 2) could fall under GWN, but what about when what a dev is doing
> is something not ready for prime time, but just something they're
> starting on, etc. Something more immediate than the "submit a story to
> GWN, wait a week" stuff.

> This is not to say that an official wifi is a bad idea, just that the
> wifi idea seems fundamentally different from something along the lines
> of planet.gnome.org.

Indeed it would be.  I finally took a look at planet.gentoo.org, and I
see that the content, at least on the main page, is largely personal in
nature and unrelated to Gnome development.  I simply do not see it being
useful for there to be an official place for such content.  

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[foser]

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On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 20:56 -0400, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> Indeed it would be.  I finally took a look at planet.gentoo.org, and I
> see that the content, at least on the main page, is largely personal in
> nature and unrelated to Gnome development.  I simply do not see it being
> useful for there to be an official place for such content.

The most useful part besides the news page for anyone really following
the gnome project is the planet page, it creates a sense of community by
allowing devs to interact in public & keep them up-to-date on what
everyone is working on. Yes, there's also some personal stuff posted
there, but that actually brings the developer closer as a person. It's a
plus for the devs & the users alike.

Anyway, I really don't see what the whole deal is about. Wiki's are
different things, meant for a different purpose, why does it even get
discussed ? A planet is a place to bring the blogs together that are
already there (and there are quite a few), nothing more, nothing less.
See it as a service to the users that they don't have to figure out
where every single devs blog is. Nobody is forced to read the planet,
nobody is forced to blog for the planet. Just take as it is and see
where it goes from there, without judging it by appearance & first
impressions without knowing what is about.

- foser

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 11:54:31AM +0200, foser wrote:
> The most useful part besides the news page for anyone really following
> the gnome project is the planet page, it creates a sense of community by
> allowing devs to interact in public & keep them up-to-date on what
> everyone is working on. Yes, there's also some personal stuff posted
> there, but that actually brings the developer closer as a person. It's a
> plus for the devs & the users alike.

I agree with foser. In many people's eyes (including mine) Gentoo is far
more than "just a software project". It is an entire community which
embraces a lot more than just the development of Portage, our packages,
porting, documentation and infrastructure (and everything else I might have
forgotten). 

Having a planet for Gentoo developers gives us the opportunity to show our
users that we are all human with our own interests. I find it myself very
interesting when I discover that a colleague of mine loves to play squash as
well as it allows me to - when we ever come across each other - propose to
play a game. It's even more interesting when I discover that a colleague
shares interests in other aspects so that we might want to start off a new
project.

Some users even like the idea of knowing what the interests are of the
developers, where they live, what they do besides making their Gentoo
experience the best they can. And even if the amount of such users is
relatively small (say 1% - which is a very low estimation) it is large in
absolute numbers (we *do* have an enormous user base).

And it's not like it will be part of our policy that you add your stuff to
that site. It's only for the interested developers who want to share their
personal stuff. I believe that, when there are more than a couple of these
developers _and_ infra can support it, then we should at least try it.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
 ^__^   And Larry saw that it was Good.
 (oo)                                      Sven Vermeulen
 (__)   http://www.gentoo.org              Documentation & PR

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Hasan Khalil]

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So, what's the verdict then? Is there enough of a push behind this to 
get a GLEP going? If so, who is to write it? Let's get this going, if we 
can. I'd sure love to see a gentoo 'planet'... As well as a list of 
gentoo events in my area! (Jeez I'm a geek).

Sven Vermeulen wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 11:54:31AM +0200, foser wrote:
> 
>>The most useful part besides the news page for anyone really following
>>the gnome project is the planet page, it creates a sense of community by
>>allowing devs to interact in public & keep them up-to-date on what
>>everyone is working on. Yes, there's also some personal stuff posted
>>there, but that actually brings the developer closer as a person. It's a
>>plus for the devs & the users alike.
> 
> 
> I agree with foser. In many people's eyes (including mine) Gentoo is far
> more than "just a software project". It is an entire community which
> embraces a lot more than just the development of Portage, our packages,
> porting, documentation and infrastructure (and everything else I might have
> forgotten). 
> 
> Having a planet for Gentoo developers gives us the opportunity to show our
> users that we are all human with our own interests. I find it myself very
> interesting when I discover that a colleague of mine loves to play squash as
> well as it allows me to - when we ever come across each other - propose to
> play a game. It's even more interesting when I discover that a colleague
> shares interests in other aspects so that we might want to start off a new
> project.
> 
> Some users even like the idea of knowing what the interests are of the
> developers, where they live, what they do besides making their Gentoo
> experience the best they can. And even if the amount of such users is
> relatively small (say 1% - which is a very low estimation) it is large in
> absolute numbers (we *do* have an enormous user base).
> 
> And it's not like it will be part of our policy that you add your stuff to
> that site. It's only for the interested developers who want to share their
> personal stuff. I believe that, when there are more than a couple of these
> developers _and_ infra can support it, then we should at least try it.
> 
> Wkr,
>       Sven Vermeulen
> 

-- 

Hasan Khalil <gongloo@gentoo.org>
Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x707B8F18

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n:Khalil;Hasan
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email;internet:gongloo@gentoo.org
title:Ebuild/Porting Co-Lead
tel;cell:1-860-208-9957
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.gentoo.org
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Kurt Lieber]

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On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 11:40:58PM -0400 or thereabouts, Hasan Khalil wrote:
> So, what's the verdict then? Is there enough of a push behind this to 
> get a GLEP going? If so, who is to write it? Let's get this going, if we 
> can. I'd sure love to see a gentoo 'planet'... As well as a list of 
> gentoo events in my area! (Jeez I'm a geek).

If and when someone writes a GLEP, it needs to cover the following items:

* how it will accommodate devs who do not already have a blog.
* how we will measure whether or not it is 'successful'.

At this point, I'm highly skeptical that enough people will use it to
warrant having it in the first place.  So I'd like to see some
pre-established metrics that will help determine whether or not we delete
this thing down the road.  Something like "X devs updating their blogs at
least Y times per month." The statistics should be reasonable -- remember,
we have something close to 300 developers nowadays.  Just because 5 people
use this blog regularly does not mean it's a success.

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[foser]

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On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 09:26 +0000, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> If and when someone writes a GLEP, it needs to cover the following items:
> 
> * how it will accommodate devs who do not already have a blog.

Thats really up to the devs themselves, there are numerous ways to get a
blog going. I don't see why a planet GLEP should be so much more
complicated by adding requirements like this (which seem mainly your
personal view on what should be done afaics).

> * how we will measure whether or not it is 'successful'.

Mere page hits ? If we'd stop publishing things based on success rate we
might close down half the site I bet.

> At this point, I'm highly skeptical that enough people will use it to
> warrant having it in the first place.

There are several blogs by devs, they're just all over the place at this
point. I'm sure there are a lot I don't even know about.

>   So I'd like to see some
> pre-established metrics that will help determine whether or not we delete
> this thing down the road.  Something like "X devs updating their blogs at
> least Y times per month." The statistics should be reasonable -- remember,
> we have something close to 300 developers nowadays.  Just because 5 people
> use this blog regularly does not mean it's a success.

It's a planet, it's an aggregated feed of blogs that already exist. Even
with a few devs posting only once a week there will be enough traffic.
This sounds a bit like "If we don't get 10k syncs a day, we'll delete
the whole tree, it's no use otherwise". We used to push new ideas, now
we inhibit it with dry bureaucracy.

- foser

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Thursday 19 August 2004 12:00, foser wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 09:26 +0000, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> > If and when someone writes a GLEP, it needs to cover the following
> > items:
> >
> > * how it will accommodate devs who do not already have a blog.
>
> Thats really up to the devs themselves, there are numerous ways to get
> a blog going. I don't see why a planet GLEP should be so much more
> complicated by adding requirements like this (which seem mainly your
> personal view on what should be done afaics).
>
> > * how we will measure whether or not it is 'successful'.
>
> Mere page hits ? If we'd stop publishing things based on success rate
> we might close down half the site I bet.

I think that Kurt is more into the area of wanting success criteria that 
focus on the amount of posts, rather than the amount of page hits. How 
many logs per day/week need to be offered for the planet to be 
successfull? Maybe the blog is more successfull if more high-profile devs 
have regular logs? Etc.

> It's a planet, it's an aggregated feed of blogs that already exist.
> Even with a few devs posting only once a week there will be enough
> traffic. This sounds a bit like "If we don't get 10k syncs a day, we'll
> delete the whole tree, it's no use otherwise". We used to push new
> ideas, now we inhibit it with dry bureaucracy.

No, we need to have an idea that there will actually be logs on the 
planet. Define how many would be acceptable (how many devs minimum, how 
many posts per week on average), and give an indication on why you 
believe that will be met.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Kurt Lieber]

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On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 12:00:32PM +0200 or thereabouts, foser wrote:
> > * how it will accommodate devs who do not already have a blog.
> 
> Thats really up to the devs themselves, there are numerous ways to get a
> blog going. I don't see why a planet GLEP should be so much more
> complicated by adding requirements like this (which seem mainly your
> personal view on what should be done afaics).

It's a requirement to ensure as many devs as possible are able to use it.
We have a finite amount of resources, so the goal is to ensure that the
projects we devote those resources to are used by as many devs as possible.

> > * how we will measure whether or not it is 'successful'.
> 
> Mere page hits ? If we'd stop publishing things based on success rate we
> might close down half the site I bet.

If it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy, replace "successful" with "used".
My point, which you seem to have overlooked, was that if this product is
not being used, we should not waste the time and resources to support it.

> It's a planet, it's an aggregated feed of blogs that already exist. Even
> with a few devs posting only once a week there will be enough traffic.
> This sounds a bit like "If we don't get 10k syncs a day, we'll delete
> the whole tree, it's no use otherwise". We used to push new ideas, now
> we inhibit it with dry bureaucracy.

Others will call me crazy, but I'm still confident that, one of these days,
you're going to post an email to a gentoo mailing list that is positive,
uplifting and doesn't leave the reader feeling like they want to commit
suicide after they've finished reading it.  I still have hope in you,
foser!!!

hugs and kisses.

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[foser]

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On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 12:38 +0000, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> If it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy, replace "successful" with "used".
> My point, which you seem to have overlooked, was that if this product is
> not being used, we should not waste the time and resources to support it.

The requirements made make it cost much more time & resources. Just
point devs to the numerous free blogs & let there just be a planet alone
on gentoo.org, then it will be not half as time consuming to set up I
bet.
You could eventually add extra's (like on-site blogs) if it works out.
If it doesn't, then nobody will miss it if its gone & it will be much
easier to ditch (just having the planet page gone).

> Others will call me crazy, but I'm still confident that, one of these days,
> you're going to post an email to a gentoo mailing list that is positive,
> uplifting and doesn't leave the reader feeling like they want to commit
> suicide after they've finished reading it.  I still have hope in you,
> foser!!!

Amen to that brother, let's hold on to our faith.

- foser

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Duncan]

foser posted <1092920607.9405.23.camel@rivendell>, excerpted below,  on
Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:03:27 +0200:

> On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 12:38 +0000, Kurt Lieber wrote:
>> If it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy, replace "successful" with
>> "used". My point, which you seem to have overlooked, was that if this
>> product is not being used, we should not waste the time and resources
>> to support it.
> 
> The requirements made make it cost much more time & resources. Just
> point devs to the numerous free blogs & let there just be a planet alone
> on gentoo.org, then it will be not half as time consuming to set up I
> bet. You could eventually add extra's (like on-site blogs) if it works
> out. If it doesn't, then nobody will miss it if its gone & it will be
> much easier to ditch (just having the planet page gone).

As I've been reading the thread, the question that keeps occurring to me
is this:  Given that some seem skeptical, while others are all gung ho on
the idea, and further given that one point repeatedly made by the
enthusiastic crowd is that many devs already have a blog (formerly called
a public or web journal), we just lack a good public listing of them all
(several posts have inferred the poster already has a private list), and
that given the public blogging sites out there, a gentoo site for those
currently blogless shouldn't be needed..

Why isn't someone just going ahead with an unofficial one?  Collect a list
of all the devs with current blogs, create a planet (don't call it Gentoo
planet yet and violate the trademark, but a privately sponsored Gentoo
dev's blogging resource directory, or some such), and populate it with the
existing blogs.  Mention it in reply to a few user questions in the forums
and user list, and see what happens.  If the need is as great as it has
been made out to be, users will take it from there and it'll soon be
apparent that making it official would be worthwhile, making any changes
that have become obviously needed by that time when it IS made official.
If not, it'll simply languish in obscurity and eventually whoever is
putting the effort into it will probably take it down.

After all, it's not as if it'd be anything officially Gentoo, and with the
appropriate disclaimers, such a list even as a private endeavor would
arguably be quite useful. I'm cautiously for the general idea, tho I
personally don't do a lot of blog watching or the like, because I expect
it'll get a decent number of references on the user list and the like,
when people ask about the current and future direction of X ebuild, which
happens to have as the active dev someone with an active log page.  If I
were into such things personally, I'd consider starting such a site
myself, and make that my first big contribution to Gentoo.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --
Benjamin Franklin



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Tom Hosiawa]

> Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
> gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
> wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
> wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
> make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
> allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
> it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
> in the forums.

This is exactly why I think it'd be a great idea to have a gentoo-wiki 
together with the forums. It shouldn't be a replacement, but rather an 
extension of the forums.

The forums are great for answering user questions, but a lot of 
information gets lost as searching them isn't so great. It'd be a lot 
easier for users to find tutorials in a central place like a wiki than 
having to sort through a bunch of none related posts in the forums.

Why should developers have only the ability to contribute to the wiki? 
Isn't that the point of the Gentoo Docs? I know people say it's because 
Gentoo wants to ensure accurate information, but how are the forums any 
different? You can't guarentee everybodys post's are accurate, so why 
should the wiki be any different.

Tom



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Hasan Khalil]

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Tom Hosiawa wrote:

>> Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
>> gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
>> wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
>> wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
>> make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
>> allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
>> it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
>> in the forums.
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I think it'd be a great idea to have a gentoo-wiki 
> together with the forums. It shouldn't be a replacement, but rather an 
> extension of the forums.
> 
> The forums are great for answering user questions, but a lot of 
> information gets lost as searching them isn't so great. It'd be a lot 
> easier for users to find tutorials in a central place like a wiki than 
> having to sort through a bunch of none related posts in the forums.

Totally agreed.

> Why should developers have only the ability to contribute to the wiki? 
> Isn't that the point of the Gentoo Docs? I know people say it's because 
> Gentoo wants to ensure accurate information, but how are the forums any 
> different? You can't guarentee everybodys post's are accurate, so why 
> should the wiki be any different.

One of the things I _love_ about the php.net documentation is the 
user-contributed comments system (on a per-page basis). It really helps 
out with a lot. If we were to put up a wiki and enable users to post 
comments to any of the content therein, I think that we may have arrived 
at a decent compromise between assuring that content on the wiki (or 
documentation, if you want to call it so) is accurate, and allowing 
users to contribute/discuss onsite.

Just my $0.02.

-- 

Hasan Khalil <gongloo@gentoo.org>
Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x707B8F18

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n:Khalil;Hasan
org:Gentoo Foundation;Gentoo for Mac OS X
email;internet:gongloo@gentoo.org
title:Ebuild/Porting Co-Lead
tel;cell:1-860-208-9957
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.gentoo.org
version:2.1
end:vcard



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[gentoo-dev] Wikis (was: Gentoo Blog GLEP)

[Corey Shields]

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On Tuesday 17 August 2004 06:23 pm, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
> gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
> wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
> wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
> make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
> allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
> it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
> in the forums.

I really can't support an official wiki.  If our current method of 
documentation and support totally sucked then it would be a different story, 
but we are known for excellent documentation, and there is a system of checks 
and balances in the documentation process that you just don't get from a 
wiki.  Otherwise, you end up with phrases like "While most poeple use would 
use this : "  which makes no sense (taken from the first page I visited at 
the above url).  I feel that a wiki would be taking a step backwards..  

If there is a piece of documentation that someone has written and feels it 
should be included, by all means, post it to bugs.gentoo.org.  While I can't 
speak for them, I'm pretty sure that the documentation team would love the 
contribution.

As for the earlier comment that a wiki could be used in place of a planet 
site, that's like using Excel to write your letters.  Sure, you could do it, 
but it's not the best tool for the job.

Cheers,

- -Corey

- -- 
Corey Shields
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Team and Devrel Team
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
http://www.gentoo.org/~cshields
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Corey Shields <cshields@gentoo.org> writes:

> [snip]

> I really can't support an official wiki.  If our current method of 
> documentation and support totally sucked then it would be a different story, 
> but we are known for excellent documentation, and there is a system of checks 
> and balances in the documentation process that you just don't get from a 
> wiki.  Otherwise, you end up with phrases like "While most poeple use would 
> use this : "  which makes no sense (taken from the first page I visited at 
> the above url).  I feel that a wiki would be taking a step
> backwards..  

I wasn't thinking of using a wiki to host the documentation currently
maintained by the documentation team.  Rather, it could be used for
posting less formal descriptions and status updates relating to specific
projects -- it would surely be more convenient than breaking out Guide
XML, not to mention the various other tasks required for posting it on
the web site, and would thus likely lead to more information being
available.  If a page in the wiki developed into something ready for
posting as official documentation, it could be converted to Guide XML,
either manually or in part automatically by the wiki software.

> If there is a piece of documentation that someone has written and
> feels it should be included, by all means, post it to bugs.gentoo.org.
> While I can't speak for them, I'm pretty sure that the documentation
> team would love the contribution.

Particularly for users, a wiki would not only provide a place to post
less formal tutorials, but also a convenient staging ground for possible
future official documentation.  Right now, there are only two places for
such documents: the forums, which isn't particularly well suited for
various reasons, and as official documentation on the documentation
page.  There is no middle ground, and so a user in particular is
unlikely to go the route of official documentation.  Consider that for
an initial revision of some tutorial, a user is likely to post it to the
wiki rather than the forums (as is done currently), but is not likely to
revise it sufficiently and write it in Guide XML such that it is
approved as official documentation.  Consider in particular that many of
the better howtos and tutorials in the forums have developed into their
current state through various updates over a period of time, starting
From initial versions that were much farther from official
documentation.

> As for the earlier comment that a wiki could be used in place of a
> planet site, that's like using Excel to write your letters.  Sure, you
> could do it, but it's not the best tool for the job.

Perhaps more like using LaTeX to write all your letters. (which I do) ;)

Seriously though, when I made that comment, I had not visited Planet
Gnome and so I did not realize that something for personal and not
project-related content was being proposed.  I agree that for a personal
log with entries like "I read Great Expectations today," a wiki is not
particularly suitable.  I don't think we need an official place for such
content though, while I *do* think we need a place for the sort of
content I describe above.

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 03:57:45PM -0400, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> I wasn't thinking of using a wiki to host the documentation currently
> maintained by the documentation team.  Rather, it could be used for
> posting less formal descriptions and status updates relating to specific
> projects -- it would surely be more convenient than breaking out Guide
> XML, not to mention the various other tasks required for posting it on
> the web site, and would thus likely lead to more information being
> available.  If a page in the wiki developed into something ready for
> posting as official documentation, it could be converted to Guide XML,
> either manually or in part automatically by the wiki software.
[...]
> Particularly for users, a wiki would not only provide a place to post
> less formal tutorials, but also a convenient staging ground for possible
> future official documentation.  Right now, there are only two places for
> such documents: the forums, which isn't particularly well suited for
> various reasons, and as official documentation on the documentation
> page.  There is no middle ground, and so a user in particular is
> unlikely to go the route of official documentation.  Consider that for
> an initial revision of some tutorial, a user is likely to post it to the
> wiki rather than the forums (as is done currently), but is not likely to
> revise it sufficiently and write it in Guide XML such that it is
> approved as official documentation.  Consider in particular that many of
> the better howtos and tutorials in the forums have developed into their
> current state through various updates over a period of time, starting
> From initial versions that were much farther from official
> documentation.

Although I certainly support the use of a WiKi (amongst all the other
possible ways to develop documentation) for the development of a certain
document, the problem isn't the medium on which the document is hosted
_before_ it becomes official.

If you want to use OOo's shared document feature to write good
documentation, by all means please do.

Yet once a document is finalised and published on the Gentoo website, it is
important that it remains as static as possible (look who's talking *cough*)
so that:
- users don't get too confused when their favorite document has changed once
  again without having a real content change
- translators don't run away screaming with a big shotgun in their hands to
  kill off that one person that makes their job miserable
- user's don't kill off too many trees by repeatedly printing out documents
  when they have changed

Documentation is a difficult "product". Having statical documentation is a
must, but it must remain bugfree (which is difficult already). I believe
that our current mechanism is the perfect medium for documentation
development (once it is established). 

I support _a_ WiKi as _a_ development platform for _unpublished_
documentation. Once published, I think that a WiKi will put too much
pressure on the document itself as every person can change the entire
document to his or her liking:
- rephraze certain sentences
- use some synonyms to sound more intelligent
- move parts up/down so it fits *your* sense of "Good Documentation" (not
  TM'ed)
- add lots of trivial stuff 
- add lots of "Off The Wall" information
- add huge parts of verbatim text that doesn't really help much
- ...

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
 ^__^   And Larry saw that it was Good.
 (oo)                                      Sven Vermeulen
 (__)   http://www.gentoo.org              Documentation & PR

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Jeremy Maitin-Shepard]

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Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org> writes:

> [snip: reasons for keeping official documentation static]

There are advantages in allowing the documentation to be dynamic, but I
won't mention them because there is no need for such I discussion.  As I
believe I stated in the message to which you replied, I would not
suggest that a wiki be used for official documentation -- rather, I
would suggest that it be used for development of documents prior to
publication as official documentation and for hosting and development of
documentation that is not likely to become official (such as the
tutorials currently found in the forums).

-- 
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 18 August 2004 23:43, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
>
> I support _a_ WiKi as _a_ development platform for _unpublished_
> documentation. Once published, I think that a WiKi will put too much
> pressure on the document itself as every person can change the entire
> document to his or her liking:
> - rephraze certain sentences
> - use some synonyms to sound more intelligent
> - move parts up/down so it fits *your* sense of "Good Documentation"
> (not TM'ed)
> - add lots of trivial stuff
> - add lots of "Off The Wall" information
> - add huge parts of verbatim text that doesn't really help much
> - ...

And of course -- as can be witnessed on gentoo-wiki.com (not an official 
site) -- there are many cases where people believe something to be true 
when it is actually incorrect, or incorrect in borderline cases (that 
still happen often enough though)

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Stroller]

On Aug 19, 2004, at 10:57 am, Paul de Vrieze wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 August 2004 23:43, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
>>
>> I support _a_ WiKi as _a_ development platform for _unpublished_
>> documentation...
>
> And of course -- as can be witnessed on gentoo-wiki.com (not an 
> official
> site) -- there are many cases where people believe something to be true
> when it is actually incorrect, or incorrect in borderline cases...

But the great thing about a wiki is that you're able to correct it.

It does not take long to add only "THIS IS INCORRECT - see 
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/12345", and it is a 
pointer in the right direction.

I do not find the format of the forums terribly usable, but they're 
very popular with a large segment of the Gentoo community. A wiki would 
surely be a better format for user-contributed docs than the current 
state, in which several pages of "this worked for me, too" and "has 
anyone tried this with the ALL0271?" are interspersed with the 
occasional useful nugget of information, correction & update. That is a 
lot to wade through to get to the facts.

If a Gentoo wiki were to be accepted as an official project, then its 
documents could be published on a "Gentoo accepts no liability" basis. 
Should any wiki documents be founds meritsome enough & a -dev be found 
to maintain them then they could then be accepted as official & static 
documents. I would have thought this would be a potentially fantastic 
recruitment ground for -docs.

Stroller.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Niels Vandekeybus]

I agree,

The forums contain a lot of information on topics not even touched by the gentoo docs, but wading through all the reactions (some threads are 20+ pages long) is a nearly impossible task. A wiki that would get corrected by the users would surely be easier to read and maintain than a thread. You'd just have to make clear that it isn't supported by gentoo in any way.

~Progster

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:31:12 +0100
Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> 
> I do not find the format of the forums terribly usable, but they're 
> very popular with a large segment of the Gentoo community. A wiki would 
> surely be a better format for user-contributed docs than the current 
> state, in which several pages of "this worked for me, too" and "has 
> anyone tried this with the ALL0271?" are interspersed with the 
> occasional useful nugget of information, correction & update. That is a 
> lot to wade through to get to the facts.
> 
> If a Gentoo wiki were to be accepted as an official project, then its 
> documents could be published on a "Gentoo accepts no liability" basis. 
> Should any wiki documents be founds meritsome enough & a -dev be found 
> to maintain them then they could then be accepted as official & static 
> documents. I would have thought this would be a potentially fantastic 
> recruitment ground for -docs.
> 
> Stroller.
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 12:46:48PM +0200, Niels Vandekeybus wrote:
> The forums contain a lot of information on topics not even touched by the 
> gentoo docs, but wading through all the reactions (some threads are 20+ 
> pages long) is a nearly impossible task. A wiki that would get corrected 
> by the users would surely be easier to read and maintain than a thread. 
> You'd just have to make clear that it isn't supported by gentoo in any way.

But if it isn't supported; why should we even bother maintaining it
resource-wise (even if it was just infrastructure)? g-wiki.com already has
it, it's unofficial and the official gentoo doc team can take interesting
bits of out and convert it to GuideXML if the author agrees on the used
license.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
 ^__^   And Larry saw that it was Good.
 (oo)                                      Sven Vermeulen
 (__)   http://www.gentoo.org              Documentation & PR

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Joshua Brindle]

*clearly* there is something preventing this unofficial documentation 
from becoming official, else there would be no wiki.

Joshua

Corey Shields wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 06:23 pm, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> 
>>Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
>>gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
>>wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
>>wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
>>make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
>>allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
>>it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
>>in the forums.
> 
> 
> I really can't support an official wiki.  If our current method of 
> documentation and support totally sucked then it would be a different story, 
> but we are known for excellent documentation, and there is a system of checks 
> and balances in the documentation process that you just don't get from a 
> wiki.  Otherwise, you end up with phrases like "While most poeple use would 
> use this : "  which makes no sense (taken from the first page I visited at 
> the above url).  I feel that a wiki would be taking a step backwards..  
> 
> If there is a piece of documentation that someone has written and feels it 
> should be included, by all means, post it to bugs.gentoo.org.  While I can't 
> speak for them, I'm pretty sure that the documentation team would love the 
> contribution.
> 
> As for the earlier comment that a wiki could be used in place of a planet 
> site, that's like using Excel to write your letters.  Sure, you could do it, 
> but it's not the best tool for the job.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - -Corey
> 
> - -- 
> Corey Shields
> Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Team and Devrel Team
> Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
> http://www.gentoo.org/~cshields
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> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Wikis

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 04:52:23PM -0400, Joshua Brindle wrote:
> *clearly* there is something preventing this unofficial documentation 
> from becoming official, else there would be no wiki.

Resources

      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
 ^__^   And Larry saw that it was Good.
 (oo)                                      Sven Vermeulen
 (__)   http://www.gentoo.org              Documentation & PR

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Re: [gentoo-dev] About blogs & wikis

[Xavier Neys]

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Corey Shields wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 August 2004 06:23 pm, Jeremy Maitin-Shepard wrote:
> 
>>>Okay, I wasn't aware of that, but I haven't actually visited
>>>gentoo-wiki.com either.  Regardless of the state of that particular
>>>wiki, I think a wiki would simply be more useful than a weblog, since a
>>>wiki allows for greater flexibility generally.  It might make sense to
>>>make parts of it or all of it writable only by developers.  I think
>>>allowing users to modify parts of it would be advantageous though, since
>>>it would provide a better home for the sort of tutorials currently found
>>>in the forums.
> 
> I really can't support an official wiki.  

An «official wiki» ? Isn't that a contradiction in itself?

> If our current method of 
> documentation and support totally sucked then it would be a different story, 
> but we are known for excellent documentation, and there is a system of checks 
> and balances in the documentation process that you just don't get from a 
> wiki.  Otherwise, you end up with phrases like "While most poeple use would 
> use this : "  which makes no sense (taken from the first page I visited at 
> the above url).  I feel that a wiki would be taking a step backwards..  

I dont think it was suggested the current docs should be replaced by a wiki, 
that would indeed be a major step backwards.

> If there is a piece of documentation that someone has written and feels it 
> should be included, by all means, post it to bugs.gentoo.org.  While I can't 
> speak for them, I'm pretty sure that the documentation team would love the 
> contribution.

A wiki would be much more handy than the forums for user-contributed docs. 
IMHO it would allow more users to find what they need, more users to share 
their knowledge and eventually allow the docdevs to integrate that knowledge 
into the current docs or create new ones.
Writing docs about things the author knows is useful, writing docs about 
things users don't know is even better. A wiki would let us assess the latter 
in a better way.


And now, something completely different, blogs.

    On the one hand, if I ever wanted to post my own personal blog, I would 
definitely *not* host it on Gentoo so it can be _personal_, i.e. I could write 
anything I want any way I like without embarrassing, implicating or causing 
any liability to Gentoo.
Wouldn't a planet be a good choice? Given devs, or anybody else, do not really 
need Gentoo to publish a blog in the first place, why not show us the blogs 
first? The main problem now is we don't know where the blogs are. A planet 
would give them visibility, Gentoo would keep the choice of which blogs are 
'planeted' (just in case) and it would not require too much resources, hopefully.
    On the other hand, I would be very interested in official *project blogs*. 
Some teams post a status page once in a while, some might not. A project blog 
would be more dynamic and wouldn't require status page writers to keep tabs. 
See it as a way of publishing all sorts of little bits of information that are 
not big enough to make it to our home page.
Besides, a planet of those blogs would give a neat overview of everything that 
is happening within Gentoo.


My 0,02€
-- 
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\

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Re: [gentoo-dev] About blogs & wikis

[Hasan Khalil]

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Xavier Neys wrote:
>    On the other hand, I would be very interested in official *project 
> blogs*. Some teams post a status page once in a while, some might not. A 
> project blog would be more dynamic and wouldn't require status page 
> writers to keep tabs. See it as a way of publishing all sorts of little 
> bits of information that are not big enough to make it to our home page.
> Besides, a planet of those blogs would give a neat overview of 
> everything that is happening within Gentoo.

This is probably one of the best idea's I've heard in a while. I think 
that this would be helpful in ways other than individual users' blogs 
would. Is there anyone else behind this idea who agrees but didn't 
bother replying? If there's enough interest in this, perhaps a 
project-blog GLEP is in order?

-- 

Hasan Khalil <gongloo@gentoo.org>
Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x707B8F18

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fn:Hasan Khalil
n:Khalil;Hasan
org:Gentoo Foundation;Gentoo for Mac OS X
email;internet:gongloo@gentoo.org
title:Ebuild/Porting Co-Lead
tel;cell:1-860-208-9957
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] About blogs & wikis

[Aaron Walker]

Hasan Khalil wrote:
> 
> 
> Xavier Neys wrote:
> 
>>    On the other hand, I would be very interested in official *project 
>> blogs*. Some teams post a status page once in a while, some might not. 
>> A project blog would be more dynamic and wouldn't require status page 
>> writers to keep tabs. See it as a way of publishing all sorts of 
>> little bits of information that are not big enough to make it to our 
>> home page.
>> Besides, a planet of those blogs would give a neat overview of 
>> everything that is happening within Gentoo.
> 
> 
> This is probably one of the best idea's I've heard in a while. I think 
> that this would be helpful in ways other than individual users' blogs 
> would. Is there anyone else behind this idea who agrees but didn't 
> bother replying? If there's enough interest in this, perhaps a 
> project-blog GLEP is in order?

Agreed here.

-- 
Your analyst has you mixed up with another patient. Don't believe a 
thing he tells you.

/*  Aaron Walker
  *  http://butsugenjitemple.org/~ka0ttic/
  */

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Blog GLEP

[Robert Moss]

> Except this isn't an official wiki and therefore means nothing as far as 
> official support. Additionally this is probably violating our trademarks 
> (Gentoo name and logo) and has nothing in the disclaimer even saying who 
> those trademarks belong to.

Not if it's hosted in Cuba it isn't... (not that I'm saying it is, I 
have no idea).

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