[gentoo-dev] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[gentoo-dev] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Mike Frysinger]

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well like i promised we've surpassed the # of pkgs in dev-perl ... that was 
cool but now we need to refocus ...

with app-games sitting at ~330, app-emulation sitting at ~90, and dev-games at 
~20, we need to re-organize.  3 categories for ~440 packages is not enough 
imo and many other people agree (browse the forums and see Bug 20328 if you 
dont believe me).

the question is how many categories should we have ?  well i setup a small 
site to help with this and get community feedback as to what would be a good 
start for new categories.  the results are here: 
http://games.wh0rd.de/newcats.html
for those too lazy to browse to the site, the proposal is this:
    * app-emulation [28]   (basically leave the non-game related pkgs here)
    * dev-games [17]
    * games-action [40]
    * games-arcade [38]
    * games-board [37]
    * games-emulation [59]
    * games-engines [7]
    * games-fps [48]
    * games-kids [8]
    * games-misc [29]
    * games-mud [12]
    * games-puzzle [32]
    * games-roguelike [12]
    * games-rpg [11]
    * games-server [18]
    * games-simulation [10]
    * games-sports [7]
    * games-strategy [18]
    * games-util [7]

yeah that's a lot of categories, but we got a lot of games ...
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Donny Davies]

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On Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 12:51:49PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
[...]
>for those too lazy to browse to the site, the proposal is this:
>    * app-emulation [28]   (basically leave the non-game related pkgs here)
>    * dev-games [17]
>    * games-action [40]
>    * games-arcade [38]
>    * games-board [37]
>    * games-emulation [59]
>    * games-engines [7]
>    * games-fps [48]
>    * games-kids [8]
>    * games-misc [29]
>    * games-mud [12]
>    * games-puzzle [32]
>    * games-roguelike [12]
>    * games-rpg [11]
>    * games-server [18]
>    * games-simulation [10]
>    * games-sports [7]
>    * games-strategy [18]
>    * games-util [7]

Looks fairly evenly distributed to me; good idea.

Donny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Camille Huot]

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Hmmm

Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?

ie: 
app-games/action
app-games/arcade
etc.

I think this WILL be necessary one day

my 2 cents

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:11 -0400
Donny Davies <woodchip@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 12:51:49PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> [...]
> >for those too lazy to browse to the site, the proposal is this:
> >    * app-emulation [28]   (basically leave the non-game related pkgs
> >    here)* dev-games [17]
> >    * games-action [40]
> >    * games-arcade [38]
> >    * games-board [37]
> >    * games-emulation [59]
> >    * games-engines [7]
> >    * games-fps [48]
> >    * games-kids [8]
> >    * games-misc [29]
> >    * games-mud [12]
> >    * games-puzzle [32]
> >    * games-roguelike [12]
> >    * games-rpg [11]
> >    * games-server [18]
> >    * games-simulation [10]
> >    * games-sports [7]
> >    * games-strategy [18]
> >    * games-util [7]
> 
> Looks fairly evenly distributed to me; good idea.
> 
> Donny
> 


-- 
Camille Huot - <cam@cameuh.net>
direct contact on #igoan at irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Thursday 04 September 2003 14:07, Camille Huot wrote:
> Hmmm
>
> Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
>
> ie:
> app-games/action
> app-games/arcade
> etc.
>
> I think this WILL be necessary one day

how about a 2 step process ?  first we take the proposed change i made and 
then we investigate the idea you've put forth here ... i havent heard this 
proposal before but then again i havent been the best of readers of -dev :)

but i do like what you've mentioned here ...
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Camille Huot]

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On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:02:25 -0400
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thursday 04 September 2003 14:07, Camille Huot wrote:
> > Hmmm
> >
> > Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> > levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
> >
> > ie:
> > app-games/action
> > app-games/arcade
> > etc.
> >
> > I think this WILL be necessary one day
> 
> how about a 2 step process ?  first we take the proposed change i made
> and then we investigate the idea you've put forth here ... i havent
> heard this proposal before but then again i havent been the best of
> readers of -dev :)
> 
> but i do like what you've mentioned here ...
> -mike
> 

sounds nice. I think there is some work to be done to portage to get
this working.

-- 
Camille Huot - <cam@cameuh.net>
direct contact on #igoan at irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:45:30 +0200
Camille Huot <cam@cameuh.net> wrote:

> sounds nice. I think there is some work to be done to portage to get
> this working.

I don't see the main difficulty in modifying portage, but rather in
doing the transition to the new tree without breaking backward 
compatibility with old installed portage versions. There are some
people, especialy those who run gentoo on production servers, who don't
do their weekly deep update :/

-- 
TGL.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Thursday 04 September 2003 16:14, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:45:30 +0200
>
> Camille Huot <cam@cameuh.net> wrote:
> > sounds nice. I think there is some work to be done to portage to get
> > this working.
>
> I don't see the main difficulty in modifying portage, but rather in
> doing the transition to the new tree without breaking backward
> compatibility with old installed portage versions. There are some
> people, especialy those who run gentoo on production servers, who don't
> do their weekly deep update :/

nah, if we change the rsync targets ... :)
then have the 'next gen' of portage sync against the new target ... old people 
wouldnt get updates so they'd be encouraged to upgrade their portage and 
update the rsync target ...

i'm not saying that this rsync is the answer ... the point is that it can be 
done semi-easily ...
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:13:17 -0400
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thursday 04 September 2003 16:14, Thomas de Grenier de Latour
> wrote:
>
> > I don't see the main difficulty in modifying portage, but rather in
> > doing the transition <snip>
 
> nah, if we change the rsync targets ... :)
> then have the 'next gen' of portage sync against the new target ...
> old people wouldnt get updates so they'd be encouraged to upgrade
> their portage and update the rsync target ...
>
> i'm not saying that this rsync is the answer ... the point is that it
> can be done semi-easily ...

Yes, you're right. Maybe it would also speed up the transition period if
there was a mechanism to really force people to upgrade their portage
version when needed. I imagine a "minversion" file in the tree, with a
version number and an explanation message, and portage would refuse to
update anything else than himself if its current version is below the
current required version (and then display the explanation message
instead). Who know, its an easy to add feature, and it may be useful in
other situations.

-- 
TGL.

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

> I don't see the main difficulty in modifying portage, but rather in
> doing the transition to the new tree without breaking backward 
> compatibility with old installed portage versions. There are some
> people, especialy those who run gentoo on production servers, who don't
> do their weekly deep update :/

I'm the one who proposed the 2 levels a long time ago for zope & apache
stuff. I don't see the problem with backward compatibility ??
You won't have the new tree until a sync or rsync. there, a message will
warn you (as every time) to update portage.


--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On 05 Sep 2003 10:15:03 +0200
Philippe Lafoucrière <lafou@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> You won't have the new tree until a sync or rsync. there, a message
> will warn you (as every time) to update portage.

I don't think it's enough. Warnings are just... warnings, and things are
not supposed to be broken if you ignore it. And for many people, it is
redirected to /dev/null by a cron job command. Mike's suggestion of
having two trees coexisting during the transition process sounds more
reasonnable to me.

-- 
TGL.

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

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Would it be possible to require a real user to run the 'emerge world' and say 
"yes" to a question? If stdin cannot be opened (cron job), send 
root@localhost a mail.
Having two trees would require every package change to be done on each tree... 
Just as complex, I'd think.

On Friday 05 September 2003 06:39 pm, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On 05 Sep 2003 10:15:03 +0200
>
> Philippe Lafoucri鑽e <lafou@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> > You won't have the new tree until a sync or rsync. there, a message
> > will warn you (as every time) to update portage.
>
> I don't think it's enough. Warnings are just... warnings, and things are
> not supposed to be broken if you ignore it. And for many people, it is
> redirected to /dev/null by a cron job command. Mike's suggestion of
> having two trees coexisting during the transition process sounds more
> reasonnable to me.

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Friday 05 September 2003 20:17, Luke-Jr wrote:
> Having two trees would require every package change to be done on each
> tree... Just as complex, I'd think.

not if we put the portage update into the old tree and force people to move to 
the new one ... after all, we just dont update the old one so ppl have 
incentive to move ;)
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

Just to make it clear, I also think a tree reorganisation is needed and
there has been some good ideas here (my preference goes to the flat
repository with multiple informative categories inside ebuilds, as
proposed by Jean Jordaan). My point is only that this is something that
has to be thought early enough to avoid forgeting any user when it
comes real.


On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:17:29 +0000
Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Would it be possible to require a real user to run the 'emerge world'
> and say "yes" to a question? 

If "emerge world" still works after the tree reorganisation, then there
is no backward compatibility issue. But it doesn't seem so obvious to
me: with many of the solution suggested so far, a current portage would
not even pass the dep caching that comes after the sync.

> If stdin cannot be opened (cron job), send root@localhost a mail.

Doesn't change the fact that the best a current version portage can do
is to inform you that a new version is available. If I do my next sync
in six month in my 486 gateway because of a new openssh bug, I shouldn't
be blocked only because I've ignored this information. 

> Having two trees would require every package change to be done on each
> tree... Just as complex, I'd think.

There would be no need to maintain the old tree, but only to keep
something that is enough for people to make the transition (at least 
new portage and his deps). This plus a mechanism to force portage
upgrade when really needed would be enough.

-- 
TGL.

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

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This would complicate tab completion if not done correctly.
Perhaps a /usr/portage/ebuilds/ directory containing everything, and then 
symlinks in category directories... but as someone else pointed out, CVS 
lacks symlink support... Can anyone come up with a similar idea which doesn't 
make tab-completion too difficult (bash-completion could be used in some, but 
not all cases)?

On Saturday 06 September 2003 01:50 am, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> Just to make it clear, I also think a tree reorganisation is needed and
> there has been some good ideas here (my preference goes to the flat
> repository with multiple informative categories inside ebuilds, as
> proposed by Jean Jordaan). My point is only that this is something that
> has to be thought early enough to avoid forgeting any user when it
> comes real.
>
>
> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:17:29 +0000
>
> Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Would it be possible to require a real user to run the 'emerge world'
> > and say "yes" to a question?
>
> If "emerge world" still works after the tree reorganisation, then there
> is no backward compatibility issue. But it doesn't seem so obvious to
> me: with many of the solution suggested so far, a current portage would
> not even pass the dep caching that comes after the sync.
>
> > If stdin cannot be opened (cron job), send root@localhost a mail.
>
> Doesn't change the fact that the best a current version portage can do
> is to inform you that a new version is available. If I do my next sync
> in six month in my 486 gateway because of a new openssh bug, I shouldn't
> be blocked only because I've ignored this information.
>
> > Having two trees would require every package change to be done on each
> > tree... Just as complex, I'd think.
>
> There would be no need to maintain the old tree, but only to keep
> something that is enough for people to make the transition (at least
> new portage and his deps). This plus a mechanism to force portage
> upgrade when really needed would be enough.

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 02:03:41AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> This would complicate tab completion if not done correctly.
> Perhaps a /usr/portage/ebuilds/ directory containing everything, and then 
> symlinks in category directories... but as someone else pointed out, CVS 
> lacks symlink support... Can anyone come up with a similar idea which doesn't 
> make tab-completion too difficult (bash-completion could be used in some, but 
> not all cases)?
Another major problem is identically named programs. I can think of one
in particular, not in the tree at the moment, but both would belong in
net-misc (two authors independantly wrote programs to do basically the
same thing, with slightly different extra features, and then named them
the same thing).

Even if they aren't in the same category, support for identically named
programs is important.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
E-Mail     : robbat2@orbis-terrarum.net
Home Page  : http://www.orbis-terrarum.net/?l=people.robbat2
ICQ#       : 30269588 or 41961639
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

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Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the ebuild 
'bittorrent' is used for the official client, 'bittorrent-mxs' for mxs's 
version and 'bittorrent-theshadow' for TheSHAD0W's version.

On Saturday 06 September 2003 03:27 am, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 02:03:41AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > This would complicate tab completion if not done correctly.
> > Perhaps a /usr/portage/ebuilds/ directory containing everything, and then
> > symlinks in category directories... but as someone else pointed out, CVS
> > lacks symlink support... Can anyone come up with a similar idea which
> > doesn't make tab-completion too difficult (bash-completion could be used
> > in some, but not all cases)?
>
> Another major problem is identically named programs. I can think of one
> in particular, not in the tree at the moment, but both would belong in
> net-misc (two authors independantly wrote programs to do basically the
> same thing, with slightly different extra features, and then named them
> the same thing).
>
> Even if they aren't in the same category, support for identically named
> programs is important.

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[George Shapovalov]

On Friday 05 September 2003 21:18, Luke-Jr wrote:
> Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the ebuild
But they do. We already have few ebuilds with identical names in the tree (in 
different categories of course). I don't remember specifics, just that this 
was coming up in prior similar discussions and I think there are on an order 
of 10 of them.. Just pointing out "the fact of life" that we would have to be 
careful about when having to deal with actual reorganization. 
IIRC, some of them were emacs modules having the same name as the language or 
some such, for which they provided special emacs mode.
And there were angry users when I had to rename ebuilds to avoid name clashes 
(f.e. balsa (the "oroginal" one, actually was created before the well known 
gnome app) => tbass). So this may not be as simple as it seems...

George



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

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Ok, then maybe I should rephrase that... Ebuilds should not have the same 
name. IIRC, it is against policy and when they do have the same name it is a 
bug which should be fixed.

On Saturday 06 September 2003 07:47 am, George Shapovalov wrote:
> On Friday 05 September 2003 21:18, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the ebuild
>
> But they do. We already have few ebuilds with identical names in the tree
> (in different categories of course). I don't remember specifics, just that
> this was coming up in prior similar discussions and I think there are on an
> order of 10 of them.. Just pointing out "the fact of life" that we would
> have to be careful about when having to deal with actual reorganization.
> IIRC, some of them were emacs modules having the same name as the language
> or some such, for which they provided special emacs mode.
> And there were angry users when I had to rename ebuilds to avoid name
> clashes (f.e. balsa (the "oroginal" one, actually was created before the
> well known gnome app) => tbass). So this may not be as simple as it
> seems...
>
> George
>
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Martin Schlemmer]

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On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 15:38, Luke-Jr wrote:
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> 
> Ok, then maybe I should rephrase that... Ebuilds should not have the same 
> name. IIRC, it is against policy and when they do have the same name it is a 
> bug which should be fixed.
> 

Having categories and having identical ones in different categories,
does sort of invalidate the extreme "bug" tag you put on it.  Anyhow,
last time I checked, there was no policy like this ?  As far as I am
concerned, as long as we have categories, renaming a package because
of an already existing one in a different category is just silly, and
will cause more confusion.

> On Saturday 06 September 2003 07:47 am, George Shapovalov wrote:
> > On Friday 05 September 2003 21:18, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the ebuild
> >
> > But they do. We already have few ebuilds with identical names in the tree
> > (in different categories of course). I don't remember specifics, just that
> > this was coming up in prior similar discussions and I think there are on an
> > order of 10 of them.. Just pointing out "the fact of life" that we would
> > have to be careful about when having to deal with actual reorganization.
> > IIRC, some of them were emacs modules having the same name as the language
> > or some such, for which they provided special emacs mode.
> > And there were angry users when I had to rename ebuilds to avoid name
> > clashes (f.e. balsa (the "oroginal" one, actually was created before the
> > well known gnome app) => tbass). So this may not be as simple as it
> > seems...
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> - -- 
> Luke-Jr
> Developer, Gentoo Linux
> http://www.gentoo.org/
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> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
-- 

Martin Schlemmer
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop/System Team Developer
Cape Town, South Africa



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

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Unless I'm mistaken, the only purpose of categories is to make it easier to 
find ebuilds either with tab completion or a GUI tree.

On Saturday 06 September 2003 03:35 pm, Martin Schlemmer wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 15:38, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Ok, then maybe I should rephrase that... Ebuilds should not have the same
> > name. IIRC, it is against policy and when they do have the same name it
> > is a bug which should be fixed.
>
> Having categories and having identical ones in different categories,
> does sort of invalidate the extreme "bug" tag you put on it.  Anyhow,
> last time I checked, there was no policy like this ?  As far as I am
> concerned, as long as we have categories, renaming a package because
> of an already existing one in a different category is just silly, and
> will cause more confusion.
>
> > On Saturday 06 September 2003 07:47 am, George Shapovalov wrote:
> > > On Friday 05 September 2003 21:18, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > > Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the
> > > > ebuild
> > >
> > > But they do. We already have few ebuilds with identical names in the
> > > tree (in different categories of course). I don't remember specifics,
> > > just that this was coming up in prior similar discussions and I think
> > > there are on an order of 10 of them.. Just pointing out "the fact of
> > > life" that we would have to be careful about when having to deal with
> > > actual reorganization. IIRC, some of them were emacs modules having the
> > > same name as the language or some such, for which they provided special
> > > emacs mode.
> > > And there were angry users when I had to rename ebuilds to avoid name
> > > clashes (f.e. balsa (the "oroginal" one, actually was created before
> > > the well known gnome app) => tbass). So this may not be as simple as it
> > > seems...
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> > - --
> > Luke-Jr
> > Developer, Gentoo Linux
> > http://www.gentoo.org/
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
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> > iD8DBQE/WeNPZl/BHdU+lYMRAniaAKCZbsDxCTMJw2sNP4rkisy9dBcGjACghNsc
> > XvE6ts4smv9dnXYYTqrj/og=
> > =Kpkj
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Martin Schlemmer]

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On Sun, 2003-09-07 at 02:06, Luke-Jr wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, the only purpose of categories is to make it easier to 
> find ebuilds either with tab completion or a GUI tree.
> 

Well, the other idea is to have things a bit more structured.  Sure,
some things belong to more categories than one, but most if not all
of the times it is more suited in one, so we can have it there.

I never was fond of the 'flat' structure, as it in my opinion will
make things more difficult.  Where you can now just do:

 $ ls /usr/portage/x11-themes/

to see what themes X there is, you will either have to search for
'theme' and hope you do not get buried under the load, or you will
have to first dig through another file for the 'virtual category',
and then search for that.  It will also be slower then the 'ls'
alternative.

Further, maintaining will also get a bigger headache, as you will
have to keep updated as 'virtual categories' are added and changed,
and maintain the not so short to too damn long list for each
package.

But all above have still nothing to do with:

1) I see no issue with 'foo/bar' and 'zar/bar' packages, as portage
will get the DEPEND right, and it is really not that a train smash for
the user.

2) I still am fairly sure there is no policy that say you cannot
have 1), as you wanted to relay.

3) Except if changed, the policy 'was' that all package names should
be lower case ... guess nobody bother about that one 8)


Lastly, I really do not see the gain in dumping all packages starting
with 'a' into a[0-9].  I have never been a Slackware fan (local history
that I am not going to go into now), but every time I wanted to browse
their packages (or Suse for that matter), its a rather mission to
figure out where what is, especially if you do not know the exact name
of the package.  MDK/RH is a bit better, but the 20 pages with a 'ls'
also tend to make it a schlep - Gentoo has been fairly easy to find
most things when I started (did not have the 'emerge -s ...' back then.

Right, so maybe its because I came from before 'emerge -s', or maybe it
is because I mostly still navigate with 'cd' and 'ls'.  I do however
feel that just dumping the categories as we have them now will be a
more in the wrong direction.  Sure, you have editors, and then you have
a editor for java - where to put it?  If not a plain text editor, but
rather something like rhide, anjuta, whatever, they are in dev-util.
Sure not the best place .. what about a new category 'dev-ide' ?
There is a few IDE's around these days.

Anyhow, just me rambling, flame away =)
 


> On Saturday 06 September 2003 03:35 pm, Martin Schlemmer wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 15:38, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Ok, then maybe I should rephrase that... Ebuilds should not have the same
> > > name. IIRC, it is against policy and when they do have the same name it
> > > is a bug which should be fixed.
> >
> > Having categories and having identical ones in different categories,
> > does sort of invalidate the extreme "bug" tag you put on it.  Anyhow,
> > last time I checked, there was no policy like this ?  As far as I am
> > concerned, as long as we have categories, renaming a package because
> > of an already existing one in a different category is just silly, and
> > will cause more confusion.
> >
> > > On Saturday 06 September 2003 07:47 am, George Shapovalov wrote:
> > > > On Friday 05 September 2003 21:18, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > > > Obviously, ebuilds can't have the same name... For BitTorrent, the
> > > > > ebuild
> > > >
> > > > But they do. We already have few ebuilds with identical names in the
> > > > tree (in different categories of course). I don't remember specifics,
> > > > just that this was coming up in prior similar discussions and I think
> > > > there are on an order of 10 of them.. Just pointing out "the fact of
> > > > life" that we would have to be careful about when having to deal with
> > > > actual reorganization. IIRC, some of them were emacs modules having the
> > > > same name as the language or some such, for which they provided special
> > > > emacs mode.
> > > > And there were angry users when I had to rename ebuilds to avoid name
> > > > clashes (f.e. balsa (the "oroginal" one, actually was created before
> > > > the well known gnome app) => tbass). So this may not be as simple as it
> > > > seems...
> > > >
> > > > George
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> > >
> > > - --
> > > Luke-Jr
> > > Developer, Gentoo Linux
> > > http://www.gentoo.org/
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> > >
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> > > XvE6ts4smv9dnXYYTqrj/og=
> > > =Kpkj
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> - -- 
> Luke-Jr
> Developer, Gentoo Linux
> http://www.gentoo.org/
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-- 

Martin Schlemmer
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop/System Team Developer
Cape Town, South Africa



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

> I don't think it's enough. Warnings are just... warnings, and things are
> not supposed to be broken if you ignore it. And for many people, it is
> redirected to /dev/null by a cron job command. Mike's suggestion of
> having two trees coexisting during the transition process sounds more
> reasonnable to me.

And what about a world dependancy that would contain portage ? Any
emerge of a package would upgrade portage if there's an available
update.


--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It would also seem that could change the entire portage tree structure (for 
the better?):
app/games/arcade/somegame
kde    (the metapackage we currently have)
kde/base/kdelibs
kde/base/kdebase
etc...

On Thursday 04 September 2003 06:07 pm, Camille Huot wrote:
> Hmmm
>
> Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
>
> ie:
> app-games/action
> app-games/arcade
> etc.
>
> I think this WILL be necessary one day
>
> my 2 cents
>
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:11 -0400
>
> Donny Davies <woodchip@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 12:51:49PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > >for those too lazy to browse to the site, the proposal is this:
> > >    * app-emulation [28]   (basically leave the non-game related pkgs
> > >    here)* dev-games [17]
> > >    * games-action [40]
> > >    * games-arcade [38]
> > >    * games-board [37]
> > >    * games-emulation [59]
> > >    * games-engines [7]
> > >    * games-fps [48]
> > >    * games-kids [8]
> > >    * games-misc [29]
> > >    * games-mud [12]
> > >    * games-puzzle [32]
> > >    * games-roguelike [12]
> > >    * games-rpg [11]
> > >    * games-server [18]
> > >    * games-simulation [10]
> > >    * games-sports [7]
> > >    * games-strategy [18]
> > >    * games-util [7]
> >
> > Looks fairly evenly distributed to me; good idea.
> >
> > Donny

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Camille Huot]

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We have to keep a reasonnable size (not too deeper) imho. But 3 or even
4 levels (rare) sounds nice to me.

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:14:00 +0000
Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> wrote:

> It would also seem that could change the entire portage tree structure
> (for the better?):
> app/games/arcade/somegame
> kde    (the metapackage we currently have)
> kde/base/kdelibs
> kde/base/kdebase
> etc...
> 
> On Thursday 04 September 2003 06:07 pm, Camille Huot wrote:
> > Hmmm
> >
> > Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> > levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
> >
> > ie:
> > app-games/action
> > app-games/arcade
> > etc.
> >
> > I think this WILL be necessary one day
> >
> > my 2 cents
> >
>
> - -- 
> Luke-Jr
> Developer, Gentoo Linux
> http://www.gentoo.org/

-- 
Camille Huot - <cam@cameuh.net>
direct contact on #igoan at irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

If/when such changes are made, it would probably be a good idea to add symlink 
support (for when packages may fall in multiple categories)

On Thursday 04 September 2003 07:42 pm, Camille Huot wrote:
> We have to keep a reasonnable size (not too deeper) imho. But 3 or even
> 4 levels (rare) sounds nice to me.
>
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:14:00 +0000
>
> Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > It would also seem that could change the entire portage tree structure
> > (for the better?):
> > app/games/arcade/somegame
> > kde    (the metapackage we currently have)
> > kde/base/kdelibs
> > kde/base/kdebase
> > etc...
> >
> > On Thursday 04 September 2003 06:07 pm, Camille Huot wrote:
> > > Hmmm
> > >
> > > Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> > > levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
> > >
> > > ie:
> > > app-games/action
> > > app-games/arcade
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > I think this WILL be necessary one day
> > >
> > > my 2 cents
> >
> > - --
> > Luke-Jr
> > Developer, Gentoo Linux
> > http://www.gentoo.org/

-- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/


--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[George Shapovalov]

Wow, this came up once again *and* it got some notice this time, nice!
This is my big yes on this with a remark that this will also be usefull to 
sort multiple packages under dev-libs. Some are more scientific and may 
reside under app/sci/libs or some such, some belong elsewhere...

George

On Thursday 04 September 2003 11:07, Camille Huot wrote:
> Hmmm
>
> Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?



--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Jean Jordaan]

>> but how about make more than 2
>> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?

My personal feeling is that many packages don't belong in only one
category. E.g. in portage currently:

*  app-text/yudit
       Description: free (Y)unicode text editor for all unices

*  app-editors/jedit
       Description: Programmer's editor written in Java

Both make sense, and app-editors/yudit & app-editors/yudit would
also make sense. Instead of categories, ebuilds should have a
CATEGORY variable. E.g.

"""
DESCRIPTION="free (Y)unicode text editor for all unices"
SRC_URI="http://yudit.org/download/${P}.tar.gz"
HOMEPAGE="http://www.yudit.org/"
CATEGORY="app-text app-editors" # <= all categories that make sense
"""

App directories can then be in one directory, or can be split by
letter to keep the number of files per directory smaller (e.g.

   /usr/portage/aa/aa-sources
   /usr/portage/aa/aalib
   /usr/portage/aa/aap
   /usr/portage/aa/aaquake2
   /usr/portage/ab/abcde
   /usr/portage/ab/abcm2ps
   /usr/portage/ab/abiword
   /usr/portage/ab/abook

Then you do `emerge search app-text` instead of
`ls /usr/portage/app-text`, and guessing whether vim is there,
or in app-vim or in app-editors.

-- 
Jean Jordaan
http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Grant Goodyear]

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On Thu, 2003-09-04 at 16:52, Jean Jordaan wrote:
> >> but how about make more than 2
> >> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
> 
> My personal feeling is that many packages don't belong in only one
> category. E.g. in portage currently:
> 
> *  app-text/yudit
>        Description: free (Y)unicode text editor for all unices
> 
> *  app-editors/jedit
>        Description: Programmer's editor written in Java
> 
> Both make sense, and app-editors/yudit & app-editors/yudit would
> also make sense. Instead of categories, ebuilds should have a
> CATEGORY variable. E.g.

Portage support would be required to support deeper trees.  The problem
with symlinks is that we use CVS for our portage tree, which doesn't
support symlinks (or graceful renaming, or ...); unfortunately, it's the
best game in town for us right now.

I agree w/ Vapier on this one.  The short-term fix should be fine, and
I, too, would like to see support for a more heirarchical portage tree
in a future version of portage.

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear <g2boojum@gentoo.org>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Luke-Jr]

We could implement some kind of ebuild-link then? 'inherit app-editors/jedit'?

On Thursday 04 September 2003 10:09 pm, Grant Goodyear wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-09-04 at 16:52, Jean Jordaan wrote:
> > >> but how about make more than 2
> > >> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
> >
> > My personal feeling is that many packages don't belong in only one
> > category. E.g. in portage currently:
> >
> > *  app-text/yudit
> >        Description: free (Y)unicode text editor for all unices
> >
> > *  app-editors/jedit
> >        Description: Programmer's editor written in Java
> >
> > Both make sense, and app-editors/yudit & app-editors/yudit would
> > also make sense. Instead of categories, ebuilds should have a
> > CATEGORY variable. E.g.
>
> Portage support would be required to support deeper trees.  The problem
> with symlinks is that we use CVS for our portage tree, which doesn't
> support symlinks (or graceful renaming, or ...); unfortunately, it's the
> best game in town for us right now.
>
> I agree w/ Vapier on this one.  The short-term fix should be fine, and
> I, too, would like to see support for a more heirarchical portage tree
> in a future version of portage.
>
> -g2boojum-

-- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/


--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Jean Jordaan]

>>Both make sense, and app-editors/yudit & app-editors/yudit would
>>also make sense. Instead of categories, ebuilds should have a
>>CATEGORY variable. E.g.
> 
> Portage support would be required to support deeper trees.  

Note that I'm not talking about trees at all. I'm talking about
a flat list of ebuilds, where every ebuild belongs to several
categories of different levels of specificity.

> The problem
> with symlinks is that we use CVS for our portage tree, 

I don't propose any symlinking.

> I, too, would like to see support for a more heirarchical portage tree
> in a future version of portage.

I think a hierarchy, where every ebuild has a specific place in
the tree, is a bad fit for portage or for any packaging system.
One does need a taxonomy or controlled list of categories, but
an ebuild can legitimately belong to many categories.

As drobbins says, though, current portage code is tied to the
category structure. Which is perfectly workable, really :)  I
just completely ignore the category, and use `emerge search` to
find packages. It only bugs developers who have to decide &
revise in which category to put a package. However, I'd like
categories to become more useful for me as user.

-- 
Jean Jordaan
http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Thu, 2003-09-04 at 14:47, George Shapovalov wrote:
> Wow, this came up once again *and* it got some notice this time, nice!
> This is my big yes on this with a remark that this will also be usefull to 
> sort multiple packages under dev-libs. Some are more scientific and may 
> reside under app/sci/libs or some such, some belong elsewhere...

I will make sure this gets added to the next complete rewrite of
Portage, as well as many other things. However, for now, we should work
within the existing cat/pkg structure. The "cat/pkg concept" is tightly
integrated into the existing Portage code.

Best Regards,

Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Jan Krueger]

On Thursday 04 September 2003 18:07, Camille Huot wrote:
> Hmmm
>
> Maybe you already have discussed it, but how about make more than 2
> levels in portage, as in OpenBSD's ports tree ?
>
> ie:
> app-games/action
> app-games/arcade
> etc.
>
> I think this WILL be necessary one day
Yes, please:

net/www/servers
net/www/cms
net/www/containers

comes to my mind immediately :)
directly followed by:

net/mail/smtp
net/mail/spam
net/mail/pop+imap
net/mail/clients
net/mail/groupware
...

Jan


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

Guys, this has been discussed in april 2002 already
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=19273&highlight=zope


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Ralph F. De Witt]

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On Friday 05 September 2003 01:22 am, Philippe Lafoucrière wrote:
> Guys, this has been discussed in april 2002 already
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=19273&highlight=zope
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
What does ZOPE have to do with breaking up the Games section of portage into 
many smaller catagories that are more manageable? Are you proposeing that 
portage be rewritten and turned into a ZOPE database?
-- 
Ralph
==================================================
Gentoo Linux:		Gentoo Base System version 1.4.3.8p1
kernel-2.4.22_pre2-gss		AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2200+
AIM, YAHOO = ralphfdewitt JABBER.ORG = ralphdewitt
Signed and Encrypted mail encouraged
==================================================

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Breaking up the beast known as app-games

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Friday 05 September 2003 04:51, Ralph F. De Witt wrote:
> On Friday 05 September 2003 01:22 am, Philippe Lafoucrière wrote:
> > Guys, this has been discussed in april 2002 already
> > http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=19273&highlight=zope
> What does ZOPE have to do with breaking up the Games section of portage
> into many smaller catagories that are more manageable? Are you proposeing
> that portage be rewritten and turned into a ZOPE database?

what he meant was the fact that portage should go into depths like bsd ports 
was discussed before ...
the zope example is like this:
net-www/zope/server/server.ebuild
-mike

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