[gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Kurt Lieber]

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I've used the same installation CD for most of my gentoo installs over the
past few months, so I was shocked today when I realized that the smallest
install ISO that we currently offer (at least for x86) is 80MB.  When I
started with Gentoo, it was ~15MB.  

What brought about the nearly six-fold increase in size for our basic
installation CD?  I understand the LiveCDs have added lots of features and
functionality that some of our users have requested -- I have no objections
to that.  I do, however, object to the fact that the old, simple and small
installation CD was killed off. That seems to go against the "Gentoo is
about choice" theme that we trumpet. 

Why was this decision made?  Who made it?

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Dhruba Bandopadhyay]

Kurt Lieber wrote:
> I've used the same installation CD for most of my gentoo installs over the
> past few months, so I was shocked today when I realized that the smallest
> install ISO that we currently offer (at least for x86) is 80MB.  When I
> started with Gentoo, it was ~15MB.  

That's a good point.  In my case, I always use basic cds.  When I began 
with Gentoo installations the basic iso was 30-40MB and if indeed they 
are double that now I'd very much welcome a reduction to near enough its 
original size.  I'd say <= ~50MB is a reasonable basic iso size but 
that's subjective.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Monday 18 August 2003 8:42 pm, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> I've used the same installation CD for most of my gentoo installs over the
> past few months, so I was shocked today when I realized that the smallest
> install ISO that we currently offer (at least for x86) is 80MB.  When I
> started with Gentoo, it was ~15MB.

The current gentoo-basic iso is around 68 Mb; the uncompressed livecd image on 
there comes out at 144 Mb.  (Btw, why isn't there an ebuild for cloop 
anywhere in Portage?  No matter, I've put one together, which I'll commit 
later in the week.  Don't use cloop-1.0, as it's not compatible with cloop 
images made with older versions, because of the change to 64-bit in the file 
format, and because cloop-1.0-2 looks like it was released by accident)

It looks like adding vim to the iso is one of the causes of the size increase.  
So (it seems) is Perl 5.  Having vim is much appreciated (although a bit of 
trimming would be nice perhaps), but I'm not yet sure why the CD needs Perl 
5.  I'm sure it's been put on there for a reason tho.

I think a nice target size should be an image that fits onto your average 64Mb 
Pendrive.  Being able to carry a Gentoo install solution around on my keyring 
(along with my gpg keys :) sure is nice.  So ideally a 55Mb image, to allow 
room to spare.

It doesn't look too hard to make a smaller image if you want.  The syslinux 
site seems (I haven't tried this *yet*) to have all the info required on how 
to make a new ISO image, and it's easy enough to look at the contents of the 
existing ISO image, with a short amount of work.  I can knock up a mini-guide 
for that if there's demand.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
Beta packages for download            http://dev.gentoo.org/~stuart/packages/
Come and meet me in March 2004                 http://www.phparch.com/cruise/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Bob Johnson]

Heres the basic livecd package list starting from a stage3
Using USE as 

"-cdr -wavelan pcmcia -gnome -dvd -gpm -lirc crypt ipv6 -doc -slang -X -gtk 
-svga -directfb \
-ggi -esd -nas -ggi socks5 usb \
-python -truetype -perl bindist -cups -gtk2 "

Cleanups remove:
emerge -C automake autoconf bison patch linux-headers man-pages 
emerge -C distcc gcc sash bison flex gettext ccache addpatches man groff 
emerge -C lib-compat python miscfiles

rm -rf the following: 

var/tmp/portage /var/db /var/empty /var/cache \
/var/lock /tmp /usr/portage /usr/share/man /usr/share/unimaps \
/usr/include /usr/share/dict /usr/share/doc /usr/share/ss /usr/share/state 
/usr/share/texinfo \
/var/tmp /usr/lib/python2.2 /usr/lib/portage /usr/share/gettext 
/usr/share/rfc\
/usr/X11R6/man /usr/X11R6/include /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/doc
/usr/src/linux /var/db/pkg/sys-kernel /usr/lib/gcc-lib /usr/lib/*.a /lib/*.a

metalog
ncftp
sys-apps/pciutils
links
grub
lilo
parted
app-arch/mt-st
sys-apps/star
dev-util/strace
sys-apps/pciutils
net-dialup/wvdial
sys-apps/raidtools
net-fs/nfs-utils
net-irc/irssi
jfsutils
speedtouch
gpm
dosfstools
vim
xfsprogs
sys-apps/e2fsprogs
sys-apps/reiserfs-utils
sys-apps/hdparm
app-editors/nano
sys-apps/less
net-misc/openssh
net-misc/dhcpcd
popt
dialog
=sys-apps/modutils-2.4.25
fxload
=sys-apps/hotplug-20020826-r2
screen
mirrorselect
gs-sources
iputils
kudzu
=sys-apps/hwdata-knoppix-0.8
hwsetup
bootsplash
=sys-apps/baselayout-1.8.6.8-r1
net-misc/nforce-net
net-wireless/wireless-tools
sys-apps/iproute
sys-apps/pcmcia-cs
linux-wlan-ng
net-dialup/ppp
net-dialup/rp-pppoe
isdn4k-utils
kpnadsl4linux
pptpclient
sys-apps/lvm-user
rp-l2tp
usbutils
sys-apps/mdadm
net-ftp/ftpd
=sys-apps/evms-1.2.1-r1
sys-apps/partimage
mingetty
pwgen
dietlibc

							Bob

								Bob


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Luke-Jr]

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I'm hoping I can get bittorrent and ntp added too and perhaps svgalib support 
for links. This would total 8.3 MB on a uncompressed system.

On Tuesday 19 August 2003 12:06 am, Bob Johnson wrote:
> Heres the basic livecd package list starting from a stage3
> Using USE as
>
> "-cdr -wavelan pcmcia -gnome -dvd -gpm -lirc crypt ipv6 -doc -slang -X -gtk
> -svga -directfb \
> -ggi -esd -nas -ggi socks5 usb \
> -python -truetype -perl bindist -cups -gtk2 "
>
> Cleanups remove:
> emerge -C automake autoconf bison patch linux-headers man-pages
> emerge -C distcc gcc sash bison flex gettext ccache addpatches man groff
> emerge -C lib-compat python miscfiles
>
> rm -rf the following:
>
> var/tmp/portage /var/db /var/empty /var/cache \
> /var/lock /tmp /usr/portage /usr/share/man /usr/share/unimaps \
> /usr/include /usr/share/dict /usr/share/doc /usr/share/ss /usr/share/state
> /usr/share/texinfo \
> /var/tmp /usr/lib/python2.2 /usr/lib/portage /usr/share/gettext
> /usr/share/rfc\
> /usr/X11R6/man /usr/X11R6/include /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/doc
> /usr/src/linux /var/db/pkg/sys-kernel /usr/lib/gcc-lib /usr/lib/*.a
> /lib/*.a
>
> metalog
> ncftp
> sys-apps/pciutils
> links
> grub
> lilo
> parted
> app-arch/mt-st
> sys-apps/star
> dev-util/strace
> sys-apps/pciutils
> net-dialup/wvdial
> sys-apps/raidtools
> net-fs/nfs-utils
> net-irc/irssi
> jfsutils
> speedtouch
> gpm
> dosfstools
> vim
> xfsprogs
> sys-apps/e2fsprogs
> sys-apps/reiserfs-utils
> sys-apps/hdparm
> app-editors/nano
> sys-apps/less
> net-misc/openssh
> net-misc/dhcpcd
> popt
> dialog
> =sys-apps/modutils-2.4.25
> fxload
> =sys-apps/hotplug-20020826-r2
> screen
> mirrorselect
> gs-sources
> iputils
> kudzu
> =sys-apps/hwdata-knoppix-0.8
> hwsetup
> bootsplash
> =sys-apps/baselayout-1.8.6.8-r1
> net-misc/nforce-net
> net-wireless/wireless-tools
> sys-apps/iproute
> sys-apps/pcmcia-cs
> linux-wlan-ng
> net-dialup/ppp
> net-dialup/rp-pppoe
> isdn4k-utils
> kpnadsl4linux
> pptpclient
> sys-apps/lvm-user
> rp-l2tp
> usbutils
> sys-apps/mdadm
> net-ftp/ftpd
> =sys-apps/evms-1.2.1-r1
> sys-apps/partimage
> mingetty
> pwgen
> dietlibc
>
> 							Bob
>
> 								Bob
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:33:03AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> I'm hoping I can get bittorrent and ntp added too and perhaps svgalib support 
> for links. This would total 8.3 MB on a uncompressed system.

Are we really going to keep links (even substituting lynx)? I've replied to
the bugreport that it would be better for documentation-purposes to keep
lynx, since links needs an extra section regarding proxy-usage, and I have
received instructions not to increase the installation guide.

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26282

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 08:47:06AM +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:33:03AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > I'm hoping I can get bittorrent and ntp added too and perhaps svgalib support 
> > for links. This would total 8.3 MB on a uncompressed system.
> 
> Are we really going to keep links (even substituting lynx)? I've replied to
> the bugreport that it would be better for documentation-purposes to keep
> lynx, since links needs an extra section regarding proxy-usage, and I have
> received instructions not to increase the installation guide.
> 
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26282
> 

I've heard a lot of people mention that they'd prefer lynx.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:54:44AM -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> I've heard a lot of people mention that they'd prefer lynx.

Preferring a tool is subjective and depends on the person. We shouldn't
provide our users with all possible browsers, otherwise the basic CD will
keep on growing (w3m anyone?). We should use a commandline browser that is
easy to use, configure and document.

Also, when a mail has "prefer" in it, it usually tends to disrupt in a huge
flamewar :)

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 08:59:07AM +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:54:44AM -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > I've heard a lot of people mention that they'd prefer lynx.
> 
> Preferring a tool is subjective and depends on the person. We shouldn't
> provide our users with all possible browsers, otherwise the basic CD will
> keep on growing (w3m anyone?). We should use a commandline browser that is
> easy to use, configure and document.


Indeed, but we should also provide what will make the largest number of 
users happiest (which was what I was getting at).

> 
> Also, when a mail has "prefer" in it, it usually tends to disrupt in a huge
> flamewar :)
> 

At least it'd give me something to read... :)

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stewart Honsberger]

Jon Portnoy wrote:

> I've heard a lot of people mention that they'd prefer lynx.

In the context of an installation CD, Lynx is the way to go. Compiled 
without anything extra, it makes a great l'il browser for parsing HTML 
documentation or downloading a file or two (why that should be required 
during install should probably be investigated. What doesn't the Gentoo 
system provide that users need at that point?)

On a LiveCD, however, I definately have throw my "prefer" towards Links. 
(Frames and tables, anyone? ;) )

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
http://blackdeath.snerk.org/
"Capitalists, by nature, organize to protect themselves.
-- Geeks, by nature, resist organizaion."


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[C. Brewer]

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On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:00:10 -0400
Stewart Honsberger <blkdeath@gentoo.org> wrote:


(why that should be required 
> during install should probably be investigated. What doesn't the Gentoo 
> system provide that users need at that point?)

Here's one..I'm on on this job site in near the middle of nowhere, preaching
about the virtues of emerge to this other guy..anyhow to make a long story
short, I popped open lynx on vc/6 to check the install docs while I'm doing
the install on vc/1...also it's not that bad to cruise the web during an
install if there's nothing else decent enough nearby to occupy your time...
small enough for an install cd is good, links -g on a live-cd would be nice
though...


-- 
Chuck Brewer
Registered Linux User #284015
Get my gpg public key at pgp.mit.edu!! Encrypted e-mail preferred.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Luke-Jr]

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Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx (which doesn't 
even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really too much for a nice 
graphical browser? The docs could probably even get away with saying to use 
the Setup->Network options menu item if a proxy is needed.

On Tuesday 19 August 2003 06:47 am, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:33:03AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > I'm hoping I can get bittorrent and ntp added too and perhaps svgalib
> > support for links. This would total 8.3 MB on a uncompressed system.
>
> Are we really going to keep links (even substituting lynx)? I've replied to
> the bugreport that it would be better for documentation-purposes to keep
> lynx, since links needs an extra section regarding proxy-usage, and I have
> received instructions not to increase the installation guide.
>
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26282
>
> Wkr,
> 	Sven Vermeulen

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 01:10:30AM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote:
> Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx (which doesn't 
> even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really too much for a nice 
> graphical browser? The docs could probably even get away with saying to use 
> the Setup->Network options menu item if a proxy is needed.

... and again to safe the proxy settings, otherwise it won't last. And this
is not a substitute for anything, this is another part to be added to our
installation guide which is already quite long.

I'm really hesitant to increase the documentation size. Ofcourse, if lynx
won't be available on the LiveCD, then I have no choice :)

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
    Save some animals, eat a vegetarian.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 03:31, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> I'm really hesitant to increase the documentation size. Ofcourse, if lynx
> won't be available on the LiveCD, then I have no choice :)

lynx was not on the 1.4 x86 GRP Live CD from 20030807 that I used
yesterday.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 21:10, Luke-Jr wrote:
> Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx (which doesn't 
> even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really too much for a nice 
> graphical browser? The docs could probably even get away with saying to use 
> the Setup->Network options menu item if a proxy is needed.

I believe it *is* too much.  In fact, our "basic" install CD should be
as basic as possible.  The instructions should be as basic as possible. 
Why are we using links rather than lynx?  Why *is* perl on the install
CD?  Why do we have vim versus a smaller vim clone?

I can understand why many people want extra tools on the Live CD, but a
"basic" CD should be exactly that.  I just did a 1.4 GRP install
yesterday, since I am going to be presenting it at the local LUG next
month.  One of the things that bothered me was the fact that I have vim
before chroot, but not after.  Why is vim even on there if it cannot be
used the entire time?  I see no point in having two tools that do the
same job on the CD, especially when only one is useful during the entire
process.

I would love to see a Live CD that fits on a 64MB pen drive much more
than knowing I can use vim.  We could always make a "fat" Live CD which
has more tools for people who want them.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Michael Cummings]

To hit one of the questions - perl is on there because it is a DEPEND of
some of the other packages - it isn't there explicitly, its there because it
is a DEPEND. (caps not personal, just pointing it out as the var)

and yes, despite my bias, i miss the days when i could point to the stage1
iso and say to people "see? 15 megs. 15!!"

On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 08:39:23AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> I believe it *is* too much.  In fact, our "basic" install CD should be
> as basic as possible.  The instructions should be as basic as possible. 
> Why are we using links rather than lynx?  Why *is* perl on the install
> CD?  Why do we have vim versus a smaller vim clone?
> 
> -- 
> Chris Gianelloni
> Developer, Gentoo Linux



-- 


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Gentoo Dev    |  #gentoo-perl on irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Douglas Russell]

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What is perl a dependancy of? I'd look, but I don't want to do such a big
download. ;-)

Puggy

On Wednesday 20 August 2003 2:18 pm, Michael Cummings wrote:
> To hit one of the questions - perl is on there because it is a DEPEND of
> some of the other packages - it isn't there explicitly, its there because
> it is a DEPEND. (caps not personal, just pointing it out as the var)
>
> and yes, despite my bias, i miss the days when i could point to the stage1
> iso and say to people "see? 15 megs. 15!!"
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 08:39:23AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > I believe it *is* too much.  In fact, our "basic" install CD should be
> > as basic as possible.  The instructions should be as basic as possible.
> > Why are we using links rather than lynx?  Why *is* perl on the install
> > CD?  Why do we have vim versus a smaller vim clone?
> >
> > --
> > Chris Gianelloni
> > Developer, Gentoo Linux
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Tobias Sager]

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On 20.08.03 08:39 Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 21:10, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx
> > (which doesn't even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really
> > too much for a nice graphical browser? The docs could probably even
> > get away with saying to use the Setup->Network options menu item if
> > a proxy is needed.
> 
> I believe it *is* too much.  In fact, our "basic" install CD should be
> as basic as possible.  The instructions should be as basic as
> possible. Why are we using links rather than lynx?  Why *is* perl on
> the install CD?  Why do we have vim versus a smaller vim clone?

What about:
http://freshmeat.net/projects/virus/

Just had a look at it. It is really small (about 35k) and seems to be
working like vim (anyway, the standard keys did).

I really like VIM, but prefer having a small Gentoo Installation CD!

Regards
Tobias

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Aron Griffis]

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Tobias Sager wrote:	[Wed Aug 20 2003, 10:05:08AM EDT]
> What about:
> http://freshmeat.net/projects/virus/

Please don't do this.  I think we've had our fill of sub-standard vi
clones when we experimented with e3 back on Gentoo 1.0, IIRC.  The
missing standard features are enough to drive any normal vi user crazy.
If vim is out (which I hope hasn't been decided), then at least stick
with app-editors/vi

Aron

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Svyatogor]

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As long as the discussion turned towards things like vim/lynx and so on.
Here are my 2 cents. When I was doing my first Gentoo install vim was
not on LiveCD. The only editor there was nano, and it almost drove
me crazy, especially considering that Gentoo installation involves *a
lot* of file editing. Having a good editor is a very important thing, so
plz, don't try to save a mb's of CD space in cost of replacing vim with
anything.


On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:27:40 -0400
Aron Griffis <agriffis@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Tobias Sager wrote:	[Wed Aug 20 2003, 10:05:08AM EDT]
> > What about:
> > http://freshmeat.net/projects/virus/
> 
> Please don't do this.  I think we've had our fill of sub-standard vi
> clones when we experimented with e3 back on Gentoo 1.0, IIRC.  The
> missing standard features are enough to drive any normal vi user
> crazy. If vim is out (which I hope hasn't been decided), then at least
> stick with app-editors/vi
> 
> Aron
> 


-- 
Let the Force be with us!
Sergey Kuleshov <svyatogor@gentoo.org>
Public Key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~sergey/gentoo-gpg

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 11:56, Svyatogor wrote:
> As long as the discussion turned towards things like vim/lynx and so on.
> Here are my 2 cents. When I was doing my first Gentoo install vim was
> not on LiveCD. The only editor there was nano, and it almost drove
> me crazy, especially considering that Gentoo installation involves *a
> lot* of file editing. Having a good editor is a very important thing, so
> plz, don't try to save a mb's of CD space in cost of replacing vim with
> anything.

vim is only available outside of chroot.  It is not in the stages, and
isn't available while in chroot.  Personally, I HATE nano, but I think
if we're going to have an editor on the CD by default, we should pick
one and stick with it rather than trying to meet the needs of every
user's desire.  After all, what's next?  "I hate nano and vim, someone
put emacs on the Live CD."

I honestly think we need to differentiate the "install" CD from the
"Live" CD.  The installation CD should be as minimal as possible and
able to fit on other media easily (such as USB pen drives).

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[matt c]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Gianelloni" <wolf31o2@gentoo.org>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat


>vim is only available outside of chroot.  It is not in the stages, and
>isn't available while in chroot.  Personally, I HATE nano, but I think
>if we're going to have an editor on the CD by default, we should pick
>one and stick with it rather than trying to meet the needs of every
>user's desire.  After all, what's next?  "I hate nano and vim, someone
>put emacs on the Live CD."
>
>I honestly think we need to differentiate the "install" CD from the
>"Live" CD.  The installation CD should be as minimal as possible and
>able to fit on other media easily (such as USB pen drives).

This is a good point. Here is a "my personal experience" story, ending with
. When I first installed linux many moons ago (don't remember the distro) vi
was the only editor available on this distro. I never bothered to learn vi.
I installed gentoo over a year ago - nano was a very self-explanatory text
editor, and it "got the job done". I've learned basic vi editing in the
meantime, but nano is great for new users. When I needed to edit a file, I
ended up botching the file more often than not with vi (as I didn't know the
commands or movements.) IMO, Nano is much simpler and intuitive *for non-vi
folk* - and the editor in use should be the same both inside and outside of
the stage chroot (it just Makes Sense).

Matt




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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Douglas Russell]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 5:27 pm, matt c wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Gianelloni" <wolf31o2@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat
>
> >vim is only available outside of chroot.  It is not in the stages, and
> >isn't available while in chroot.  Personally, I HATE nano, but I think
> >if we're going to have an editor on the CD by default, we should pick
> >one and stick with it rather than trying to meet the needs of every
> >user's desire.  After all, what's next?  "I hate nano and vim, someone
> >put emacs on the Live CD."
> >
> >I honestly think we need to differentiate the "install" CD from the
> >"Live" CD.  The installation CD should be as minimal as possible and
> >able to fit on other media easily (such as USB pen drives).
>
> This is a good point. Here is a "my personal experience" story, ending with
> . When I first installed linux many moons ago (don't remember the distro)
> vi was the only editor available on this distro. I never bothered to learn
> vi. I installed gentoo over a year ago - nano was a very self-explanatory
> text editor, and it "got the job done". I've learned basic vi editing in
> the meantime, but nano is great for new users. When I needed to edit a
> file, I ended up botching the file more often than not with vi (as I didn't
> know the commands or movements.) IMO, Nano is much simpler and intuitive
> *for non-vi folk* - and the editor in use should be the same both inside
> and outside of the stage chroot (it just Makes Sense).
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

I agree with this entirely. I just don't understand what you would need vi(m) 
to change a few variables for. nano does a really good job and is really easy 
to use for inexperienced users where as vi is a bit daunting.

Puggy
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 19:09, Douglas Russell wrote:
>
> I agree with this entirely. I just don't understand what you would need
> vi(m) to change a few variables for. nano does a really good job and is
> really easy to use for inexperienced users where as vi is a bit daunting.
>

Please, not again (or do it on the users list). vi is on the install cd 
because of people not being "able" to work with nano. We managed to keep it 
out of system which I believe is good. Now stop the discussion, vi has been 
discussed too much on this list allready, and nothing should change to the 
current situation concerning vim.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 7:36 pm, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 August 2003 19:09, Douglas Russell wrote:
> > I agree with this entirely. I just don't understand what you would need
> > vi(m) to change a few variables for. nano does a really good job and is
> > really easy to use for inexperienced users where as vi is a bit daunting.

Because, for professional UNIX hacks like myself, vi is an editor that is 
universally present on just about all UNIX-like operating systems.  Not 
everyone installing Gentoo is an inexperienced user.  And I'll leave the 
debate at that.

> Please, not again (or do it on the users list). vi is on the install cd
> because of people not being "able" to work with nano. We managed to keep it
> out of system which I believe is good. Now stop the discussion, vi has been
> discussed too much on this list allready, and nothing should change to the
> current situation concerning vim.
>
> Paul

Sorry, Paul, I don't agree with you about leaving vim alone on the basic 
install CD, and I'm not happy about you telling people to stop the discussion 
either.  On the basic install CD, vim takes up megabytes of diskspace - space 
that could and should be saved.  We're not talking about trying to save 200K, 
we're talking a substantial saving.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
Beta packages for download            http://dev.gentoo.org/~stuart/packages/
Come and meet me in March 2004                 http://www.phparch.com/cruise/

GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C
--

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Eric Olinger]

On 20 Aug 2003 11:51:56 -0400
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> vim is only available outside of chroot.  It is not in the stages, and
> isn't available while in chroot.  Personally, I HATE nano, but I think
> if we're going to have an editor on the CD by default, we should pick
> one and stick with it rather than trying to meet the needs of every
> user's desire.  After all, what's next?  "I hate nano and vim, someone
> put emacs on the Live CD."
If were really talking about saving space on the livecd we could always replace 
vim with nVi. It has all the basic vi features in a lot smaller package. Plus in
that extra space put a small emacs work-alike like qemacs. I don't use emacs
but I always assumed that since we had Vi on the cd that Emacs was on the
cd as well. It'd be good to have at least the the two most common editors on 
the cd or at least work-alikes.

-- 
Eric Olinger (http://evvl.rustedhalo.net/pgp_key.txt)


The cure for 1984 is 1776.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Matt Rickard]

> If were really talking about saving space on the livecd we could always
> replace vim with nVi. It has all the basic vi features in a lot smaller
> package. 

I agree with this.  I'd like to see nvi replace vim in the livecd/install
cd's.   nvi is the vi clone used in the BSD systems by default, and looking at
a NetBSD install it comes in around 272 Kb.  It supports all the basic vi
features and would save a significant amount of space.

I'd also like to see this in the stages as well so that it is available inside
the chroot, where most of the editing is done anyway.

> Plus in that extra space put a small emacs work-alike like qemacs.
> I don't use emacs but I always assumed that since we had Vi on the cd that
> Emacs was on the cd as well. It'd be good to have at least the the two most
> common editors on the cd or at least work-alikes.

I don't think this should be included, at least not in the basic install cd's.
 Let's try to get this back closer to the 16 megs it used to be.

--
Matt Rickard
frogger@gentoo.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stewart Honsberger]

Eric Olinger wrote:
> If were really talking about saving space on the livecd we could always replace 
> vim with nVi. It has all the basic vi features in a lot smaller package. Plus in
> that extra space put a small emacs work-alike like qemacs. I don't use emacs
> but I always assumed that since we had Vi on the cd that Emacs was on the
> cd as well. It'd be good to have at least the the two most common editors on 
> the cd or at least work-alikes.

Like my Scotch namesake, I believe there shold be a vi-compliant editor 
on the install CD (and within the chroot!) for more experienced users. 
Vi is an editor that can be found on any UNIX / Linux system. Having 
Nano around for inexperienced users (or the obstinate ones who are under 
the impression that Nano is "more powerful" than Vi(M)) is also a good idea.

Vim is one of the first packages I merge on any Gentoo system, simply 
because nano drives me up the wall (Forget to use "-w" on the command 
line? Oops! File broken! Start over!); right along with my Cron and 
Syslog daemons, before even the kernel.

However, whichever Vi(m) we choose, it should be slim. It shouldn't, 
however, be slim for the sake of being slim. Eg; "Mike's Slim ViM!" and 
the like should be avoided. Mainstream only!

It's entirely probable that ViM is the culprit for bringing Perl into 
the install CD; that can and should be done away with. There's no need 
for a full-bore Perl interpreter on a CD that comes with an sh and 
Python interpreter.

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
http://blackdeath.snerk.org/
"Capitalists, by nature, organize to protect themselves.
-- Geeks, by nature, resist organizaion."


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 01:13:52AM -0400, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
[snip]
> Like my Scotch namesake, I believe there shold be a vi-compliant editor 
> on the install CD (and within the chroot!) for more experienced users. 
> Vi is an editor that can be found on any UNIX / Linux system. Having 
> Nano around for inexperienced users (or the obstinate ones who are under 
> the impression that Nano is "more powerful" than Vi(M)) is also a good idea.

Why? The amount of editing done prior to getting your system to a point 
where you can emerge vim (i.e., after emerge system) is minimal. 
Offhand, I can only think of make.conf.

nano is more than enough for editing make.conf. We're trying to _cut 
down_ on bloat, not increase it.

> 
> Vim is one of the first packages I merge on any Gentoo system, simply 
> because nano drives me up the wall (Forget to use "-w" on the command 
> line? Oops! File broken! Start over!); right along with my Cron and 
> Syslog daemons, before even the kernel.

Okay, so merge after emerge system; why do you need it for editing a 
single file (make.conf)?

(Oh, and try Esc+W to turn on/off autowrap in nano. You don't need to 
specify -w.)

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stewart Honsberger]

Jon Portnoy wrote:

> Why? The amount of editing done prior to getting your system to a point 
> where you can emerge vim (i.e., after emerge system) is minimal. 
> Offhand, I can only think of make.conf.

make.conf, fstab, hostname are the basics. /install.txt is a 
possibility, though less handles that.

> nano is more than enough for editing make.conf. We're trying to _cut 
> down_ on bloat, not increase it.

But if ViM and Perl and the Kitchen Sink libraries are already installed 
on the CD, removing Perl will cut down bloat. ;> It's just a matter of 
degree.

Re: my previous message about limits, if we're doing this solely in the 
interests of cutting down bloat, we could throw a few lines about "echo" 
and stdout redirection in install.txt and forego the editor altogether. 
(Who remembers 'edlin'?)

> Okay, so merge after emerge system; why do you need it for editing a 
> single file (make.conf)?

Don't underestimate the complexity of editing make.conf. There are 
presently ${VERY_LARGE_NUMBER} of variables to consider in the file, and 
I know my USE="" line is quite long (atleast two wraps at 80 character 
screen width).

> (Oh, and try Esc+W to turn on/off autowrap in nano. You don't need to 
> specify -w.)

That's about as simple/complex, obvious/obscure as such a command in ViM.

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
http://blackdeath.snerk.org/
"Capitalists, by nature, organize to protect themselves.
-- Geeks, by nature, resist organizaion."


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 01:59:19AM -0400, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
> Jon Portnoy wrote:
> 
> >Why? The amount of editing done prior to getting your system to a point 
> >where you can emerge vim (i.e., after emerge system) is minimal. 
> >Offhand, I can only think of make.conf.
> 
> make.conf, fstab, hostname are the basics. /install.txt is a 
> possibility, though less handles that.

fstab and hostname come after emerge system. You can emerge vim before 
editing them.

> 
> >nano is more than enough for editing make.conf. We're trying to _cut 
> >down_ on bloat, not increase it.
> 
> But if ViM and Perl and the Kitchen Sink libraries are already installed 
> on the CD, removing Perl will cut down bloat. ;> It's just a matter of 
> degree.
> 
> Re: my previous message about limits, if we're doing this solely in the 
> interests of cutting down bloat, we could throw a few lines about "echo" 
> and stdout redirection in install.txt and forego the editor altogether. 
> (Who remembers 'edlin'?)

I think a pager is reasonable, but everyone's favorite editor isn't. I 
could make a case that emacs is just as standard as vi - should we 
include emacs?

> 
> >Okay, so merge after emerge system; why do you need it for editing a 
> >single file (make.conf)?
> 
> Don't underestimate the complexity of editing make.conf. There are 
> presently ${VERY_LARGE_NUMBER} of variables to consider in the file, and 
> I know my USE="" line is quite long (atleast two wraps at 80 character 
> screen width).

Why does any of that involve doing anything that nano cannot do but vim 
can?

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stewart Honsberger]

Jon Portnoy wrote:

> I could make a case that emacs is just as standard as vi - should we
> include emacs?
[...]
> Why does any of that involve doing anything that nano cannot do but vim 
> can?

The long and short of it?

"On all POSIX.2 conforming systems vi is available. This allows users to
move from one POSIX system to another without needing to learn a new
editor."

The selection of Nano seems to be rather arbitrary. Why not Joe, Pico or
any of the other simple, user-friendly editors?

-- 
Stewart Honsberger
http://blackdeath.snerk.org/
"Capitalists, by nature, organize to protect themselves.
-- Geeks, by nature, resist organizaion."


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Ralph F. De Witt]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 11:25 pm, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
> The selection of Nano seems to be rather arbitrary. Why not Joe, Pico or
> any of the other simple, user-friendly editors?
Stewart:
IMHO I do not consider Joe or Pico user friendly. I tried editing a file with 
them having never before used ethier one of them as well as having never used 
Vi(m) or emacs. I was not able to successfully edit the file. I opened nano 
for the first time and was able to edit the file with no problem.
- -- 
Ralph
==================================================
Gentoo Linux:		Gentoo Base System version 1.4.3.8p1
kernel-2.4.22_pre2-gss		AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2200+
==================================================
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 02:21:16AM -0400, Stewart wrote:
> Jon Portnoy wrote:
> 
> > I could make a case that emacs is just as standard as vi - should we
> > include emacs?
> [...]
> >Why does any of that involve doing anything that nano cannot do but vim 
> >can?
> 
> The long and short of it?
> 
> "On all POSIX.2 conforming systems vi is available. This allows users to 
> move from one POSIX system to another without needing to learn a new 
> editor."
> 
> The selection of Nano seems to be rather arbitrary. Why not Joe, Pico or 
> any of the other simple, user-friendly editors?
> 

pico is far more standard than joe, but pico is not free software (it 
has a restrictive license). nano is a GPL'd pico clone with more 
features.

In summary, nano is easy for the new user, has advanced features (which 
aren't needed for editing make.conf, which is the only place where it's 
necessary), is similar to pico in terms of useability, is free software, 
is small, etc.

vi, on the other hand, would be used by far fewer people. For just a 
single file, I don't see why you're this intent on having a vi clone 
included.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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[gentoo-dev] OT: Re: Nano. WAS: install CD bloat

[Stroller]

On Thursday, 21 August 2003, at 7:30 am, Jon Portnoy wrote:
>
> In summary, nano is easy for the new user, has advanced features... is 
> similar to pico in terms of useability, is free software,
> is small, etc.

This is blatantly OT, but amongst nano's advanced features, is there a 
shortcut to delete the last word..? I don't see it mentioned in the FAQ 
or the man page at the GNU site.

ISTR this function is ^w in vi, and I was very surprised to be unable 
to find an equivalent in nano when I installed Gentoo. At the end of 
the day I have low requirements of a text editor, and multiple 
backspaces suffice me. Indeed, I never bothered learning vi properly in 
the first place - I only ever used it in my previous distro because it 
was "thrust" upon me when migrating to Linux / Unix, and initially 
found it much harder to use than Windows notepad. At the end of the 
day, for a new user nano is not so bad.

Stroller.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] OT: Re: Nano. WAS: install CD bloat

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Thursday 21 August 2003 12:58, Stroller wrote:
> This is blatantly OT, but amongst nano's advanced features, is there a
> shortcut to delete the last word..? I don't see it mentioned in the FAQ
> or the man page at the GNU site.

mmm nano, i write c/php/html/ebuilds/sql/everything in it :)

ctrl+g is pretty nice ... it's the help screen ...
but basically the answer is 'no' ... there is a 'work around' though if you 
dont mind a few key strokes ... just dont use it do delete 'a' :)

^ = ctrl, M = meta (alt key)
this is from the help (^G):
^Space:    advance a word
M-Space:    go back a word
^^ (M-A):    set mark
^K:    cut a line (or cut currently marked)

so, if we do this:
meta+A (to set mark), meta+space (go back a word), ctrl+k (cut the marked 
text), we just nuked it ...
problem (i think) is doing meta, meta, ctrl ... switching that finger in mid 
stroke is the sucks :(
unfortunately, meta+k is already bound to enabling/disabling cutting of the 
newline when doing just ^k
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2003-08-21 at 01:59, Stewart Honsberger wrote:
> > (Oh, and try Esc+W to turn on/off autowrap in nano. You don't need to 
> > specify -w.)
> 
> That's about as simple/complex, obvious/obscure as such a command in ViM.

While I agree with you (and prefer vi-based editing.  Personally, I use
elvis since I came from Slackware) in this there is a subtle
difference... nano -w is mentioned several times in the installation
docs and is the default editor, where vim is not.  This is my reasoning
for not having vim (or perl, or links, or anything else unnecessary) on
the "basic" CD.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Douglas Russell]

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I think there are two camps trying to put forward points here and I'm 
reasonably convinced that the camp arguing strongly for a vim are the camp 
which also plan to us their livecds for rescue and popping in all over the 
place to get a useful basic linux system. I can quite understand that in this 
case having a powerful editor would be extremely useful. However, considering 
purely the case of the installation, and download size I'm sure the 
experienced users who are more likely to be using vi would be able to manage 
editing a single file with nano.

I must say I really liked the idea from earlier on which would allow you to 
easily add things to your livecd easily to make your own custom livecd, then 
you can make it as huge as you want, with vim, emacs or whatever, creating 
your perfect livecd.

Puggy
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Jon Portnoy]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 10:54:20AM +0100, Douglas Russell wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I think there are two camps trying to put forward points here and I'm 
> reasonably convinced that the camp arguing strongly for a vim are the camp 
> which also plan to us their livecds for rescue and popping in all over the 
> place to get a useful basic linux system. I can quite understand that in this 
> case having a powerful editor would be extremely useful. However, considering 
> purely the case of the installation, and download size I'm sure the 
> experienced users who are more likely to be using vi would be able to manage 
> editing a single file with nano.
> 
> I must say I really liked the idea from earlier on which would allow you to 
> easily add things to your livecd easily to make your own custom livecd, then 
> you can make it as huge as you want, with vim, emacs or whatever, creating 
> your perfect livecd.
> 

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I'm specifically referring to inside 
the stage - i.e., what's available when you chroot. That's where you'll 
be doing things like editing make.conf.

I have no strong feelings about what goes on the LiveCD.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Toby Dickenson]

On Thursday 21 August 2003 06:42, Jon Portnoy wrote:

> Why? The amount of editing done prior to getting your system to a point
> where you can emerge vim (i.e., after emerge system) is minimal.
> Offhand, I can only think of make.conf.
>
> nano is more than enough for editing make.conf. We're trying to _cut
> down_ on bloat, not increase it.

The minimal install CD is also used for rescuing damaged systems. Ive used it 
for that purpose more often than for starting an installation.




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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 17:51, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 11:56, Svyatogor wrote:
> > As long as the discussion turned towards things like vim/lynx and so on.
> > Here are my 2 cents. When I was doing my first Gentoo install vim was
> > not on LiveCD. The only editor there was nano, and it almost drove
> > me crazy, especially considering that Gentoo installation involves *a
> > lot* of file editing. Having a good editor is a very important thing, so
> > plz, don't try to save a mb's of CD space in cost of replacing vim with
> > anything.
>
> vim is only available outside of chroot.  It is not in the stages, and
> isn't available while in chroot.  Personally, I HATE nano, but I think

And it is perfectly able of editing files inside the chroot environment. So 
just edit them with the external vim, then build system. Then merge vim

Paul

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Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 4:56 pm, Svyatogor wrote:
> As long as the discussion turned towards things like vim/lynx and so on.
> Here are my 2 cents. When I was doing my first Gentoo install vim was
> not on LiveCD. The only editor there was nano, and it almost drove
> me crazy, especially considering that Gentoo installation involves *a
> lot* of file editing. Having a good editor is a very important thing, so
> plz, don't try to save a mb's of CD space in cost of replacing vim with
> anything.

Having a vi-compatible editor on the basic install CD (sorry, but I hate the 
term LiveCD when applied to the basic install CD, because it's *not* a Live 
CD) is essential.  Having a complete vim installation isn't.

I'm sure there are smaller, vi-compatible editors out there suitable for 
putting onto the basic install CD.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
Beta packages for download            http://dev.gentoo.org/~stuart/packages/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Tavis Ormandy]

On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 11:42:54PM +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> Having a vi-compatible editor on the basic install CD (sorry, but I hate the 
> term LiveCD when applied to the basic install CD, because it's *not* a Live 
> CD) is essential.  Having a complete vim installation isn't.
> 

Having KDE doesnt make a cd "live", LiveCD is a contraction of "Live
filesystem" which obviously applies to the installation cd. I've never
downloaded any of the demonstration cd's, but i've still needed a rescue
disc to save a dying box, and the installation cd came in handy.

Vim is an essential tool for me, if it wasnt available for use when
preparing a gentoo installation, i would install from something else
that does provide it - i feel that strongly about it. 

And we're not talking about a few megabytes here, we're talking about a
few hundred K's, with USE=minimal my vim binary is just 400k.

And if its that serious an issue, theres always upx :)

> I'm sure there are smaller, vi-compatible editors out there suitable for 
> putting onto the basic install CD.

im sure there are, but vi != vim.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 19:34, Tavis Ormandy wrote:
> And we're not talking about a few megabytes here, we're talking about a
> few hundred K's, with USE=minimal my vim binary is just 400k.

The difference is a bit more than that when you count all of the
supporting files for vim, but that really is not the point I think we're
trying to get at.  The thing we are looking to solve is "Why do we need
an 80+ MB ISO to do installations from, when a smaller one can (and
should) do fine?"

> And if its that serious an issue, theres always upx :)

Which is an excellent suggestion.  Has anyone looked into this, or would
it not really be of any value due to the usage of cloop?

> > I'm sure there are smaller, vi-compatible editors out there suitable for 
> > putting onto the basic install CD.
> 
> im sure there are, but vi != vim.

Honestly, I would love to see 3 CD "sets" from Gentoo.  

1) An install CD, with *nothing* but the essentials to install.  It
should have maximum driver support and minimal anything else.  I would
think it should only have a stage1 tarball.

2) A "large" Live CD with the common tools and a nice GUI, this would
also be useful as a install CD, since it would have (at least) the
stage1 tarball.

3) The full GRP CD set with all of the pre-compiled packages and all
three stages.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Luke-Jr]

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I believe the InGen LiveCDs would be good for taking the place of what you 
call the "large" one, though I'm not sure if there will be room for stages 
when it's done...

On Thursday 21 August 2003 01:16 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Honestly, I would love to see 3 CD "sets" from Gentoo.
>
> 1) An install CD, with *nothing* but the essentials to install.  It
> should have maximum driver support and minimal anything else.  I would
> think it should only have a stage1 tarball.
>
> 2) A "large" Live CD with the common tools and a nice GUI, this would
> also be useful as a install CD, since it would have (at least) the
> stage1 tarball.
>
> 3) The full GRP CD set with all of the pre-compiled packages and all
> three stages.
- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Thursday 21 August 2003 03:16, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>
> Honestly, I would love to see 3 CD "sets" from Gentoo.
>
> 1) An install CD, with *nothing* but the essentials to install.  It
> should have maximum driver support and minimal anything else.  I would
> think it should only have a stage1 tarball.

And this one should only have one version per arch too. For x86 it should be 
compiled with -march=i386 or -march=i486, to be able to run on everything (it 
is only for install), as the optimizations don't matter for such a cd. 

>
> 2) A "large" Live CD with the common tools and a nice GUI, this would
> also be useful as a install CD, since it would have (at least) the
> stage1 tarball.
>
I imagine this would be the rescue cd kind of cd too

> 3) The full GRP CD set with all of the pre-compiled packages and all
> three stages.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Stuart Herbert]

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On Thursday 21 August 2003 12:34 am, Tavis Ormandy wrote:
> Vim is an essential tool for me, if it wasnt available for use when
> preparing a gentoo installation, i would install from something else
> that does provide it - i feel that strongly about it.

Serious question - what features of vim do you need that are not supplied by 
one of the other vi-like editors?  This would be good to know.

> And we're not talking about a few megabytes here, we're talking about a
> few hundred K's, with USE=minimal my vim binary is just 400k.

What about the contents of /usr/share/vim?  This is where a lot of space is 
taken up.

> im sure there are, but vi != vim.

For basic text editing, vim !== vi, but vim == vi.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                              stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                       http://www.gentoo.org/
Beta packages for download            http://dev.gentoo.org/~stuart/packages/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Aron Griffis]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:	[Wed Aug 20 2003, 08:39:23AM EDT]
> Why do we have vim versus a smaller vim clone?

Because vim is significantly better than any other vi clone currently
available, and users ask for it whenever it's not available.

I've just added a local USE to vim.  If you USE=minimal then you'll get
a 430K binary instead of a 2M binary.

If you really don't want vim, then please use simple vi instead of one
of clones.  It's a 168K binary, which should be sufficiently small
considering the important role of an editor when installing/rescuing.

Aron


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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Kurt Lieber]

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On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 01:10:30AM +0000 or thereabouts, Luke-Jr wrote:
> Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx (which doesn't 
> even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really too much for a nice 
> graphical browser? The docs could probably even get away with saying to use 
> the Setup->Network options menu item if a proxy is needed.

As Chris pointed out, yes -- it is too much.  We have a full-featured,
knoppix-like LiveCD that folks who want additional functionality may use.
What we don't have (or, more accurately, no longer have) is a truly "basic"
LiveCD that offers only the tools necessary to complete an install.  

--kurt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Luke-Jr]

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AFAIK, there are no 1.4 KDE/GNOME LiveCDs (with the stages for an arch & 
GRPs). Sure, most people could download the stage, but most people using such 
a LiveCD would be more likely to want to use GRPs which are currently only 
available on the non-KDE/GNOME LiveCDs. Perhaps if GRPs and the other 
LiveCD-only data were available another way...
Just an idea, but could it be possible that we could just distribute just 2 
LiveCDs (basic, KDE/GNOME) and have a script which allows people to insert 
other files into them automaticly (such as stages and GRPs)? In addition to 
making many more LiveCD combinations possible, such a method could also save 
mirror space. Those using an OS incapable of running the script could always 
use the plain LiveCD and download those files onto the new system.

On Wednesday 20 August 2003 12:43 pm, Kurt Lieber wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 01:10:30AM +0000 or thereabouts, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > Graphical browsers are much more preferable to things like lynx (which
> > doesn't even handle tables properly, IIRC). Is 4.4 MB really too much for
> > a nice graphical browser? The docs could probably even get away with
> > saying to use the Setup->Network options menu item if a proxy is needed.
>
> As Chris pointed out, yes -- it is too much.  We have a full-featured,
> knoppix-like LiveCD that folks who want additional functionality may use.
> What we don't have (or, more accurately, no longer have) is a truly "basic"
> LiveCD that offers only the tools necessary to complete an install.
>
> --kurt

- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 16:09, Luke-Jr wrote:
> AFAIK, there are no 1.4 KDE/GNOME LiveCDs (with the stages for an arch &
> GRPs). Sure, most people could download the stage, but most people using
> such a LiveCD would be more likely to want to use GRPs which are currently
> only available on the non-KDE/GNOME LiveCDs. Perhaps if GRPs and the other
> LiveCD-only data were available another way...
> Just an idea, but could it be possible that we could just distribute just 2
> LiveCDs (basic, KDE/GNOME) and have a script which allows people to insert
> other files into them automaticly (such as stages and GRPs)? In addition to
> making many more LiveCD combinations possible, such a method could also
> save mirror space. Those using an OS incapable of running the script could
> always use the plain LiveCD and download those files onto the new system.
>

That would defy the use of a grp livecd, as one of the uses of those cd's is 
to allow for a network-less setup. Then you want to have a cd available with 
everything you need, not need to compile a cd together.

Paul

ps. Or are there people who want to compete with knoppix?

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Daniel Armyr]

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> use. What we don't have (or, more accurately, no longer have) is a
> truly "basic" LiveCD that offers only the tools necessary to complete

Which was the reason some of us actually began using Gentoo once upon a time.

//Daniel Armyr

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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[William Kenworthy]

The first gentoo install I did was an ~20M iso that kicked off a stage
1.  Maybe we need a 3rd split of the install cd - minimal, full and
games?  This is not about cribbing a few bytes from /nano/vi/vim, but
about a return to the older philosophy of a dedicated kickstart,
download (usually ahead of time), the stage tarball and go, instead of
the everything on cd it has become.  Something that would fit on a 64m
pendrive would be cool.

BillK

On Thu, 2003-08-21 at 04:01, Daniel Armyr wrote:
> > use. What we don't have (or, more accurately, no longer have) is a
> > truly "basic" LiveCD that offers only the tools necessary to complete
> 
> Which was the reason some of us actually began using Gentoo once upon a time.
> 
> //Daniel Armyr
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Re: [gentoo-dev] install CD bloat

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2003-08-18 at 19:03, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> So (it seems) is Perl 5.  Having vim is much appreciated (although a bit of 
> trimming would be nice perhaps), but I'm not yet sure why the CD needs Perl 

We could try replacing vim with elvis or one of the other vim clones.
The functionality should be "close enough" for a Live CD.  I am no vim
expert, by far, but I know that I have not found a feature elvis is
lacking in normal use.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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