[gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Henrik Treadup]

Spam is (I assume) a problem not only for the gentoo-dev mailing list but 
also for all other gentoo lists. Closing gentoo-dev doesn't solve the 
problem. The other lists will still get spam.
Should the other lists also be closed? (Closing gentoo-newbies is probably a 
bad idea.) The solution IMHO is a filter on the gentoo mailserver. 

A lot of people mention Spamassassin. There is a world of difference between 
Spamassassin and a Bayesian filter like Bogofilter. 

Spamassassin is written in Perl. Bogofilter is written in C.
Spamassassin uses header analysis, text analysis, blacklists, Razor (a spam 
tracking database)
Bogofilter uses word count. Which one do you think is faster? 

I've learnt about two great ideas this year. Gentoo (the idea of a ports 
sytem) and Bayesian Spam filters. 

If you wan't to feel a happy warm glowing feeling for the rest of the day go 
and read http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html
 From Grahams article 

"To the recipient, spam is easily recognizable. If you hired someone to read 
your mail and discard the spam, they would have little trouble doing it. How 
much do we have to do, short of AI, to automate this process? 

I think we will be able to solve the problem with fairly simple algorithms. 
In fact, I've found that you can filter present-day spam acceptably well 
using nothing more than a Bayesian combination of the spam probabilities of 
individual words. Using a slightly tweaked (as described below) Bayesian 
filter, we now miss less than 5 per 1000 spams, with 0 false positives." 

/Henrik Treadup
hetr9922@student.su.se 

PS. I have yet to see a spam email on this list that would have gotten 
through a bayesian filter. 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Burton Samograd]

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On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 02:28:08PM +0200, Henrik Treadup wrote:
> Spam is (I assume) a problem not only for the gentoo-dev mailing list but 
> also for all other gentoo lists. Closing gentoo-dev doesn't solve the 
> problem. The other lists will still get spam.
> Should the other lists also be closed? (Closing gentoo-newbies is probably 
> a bad idea.) The solution IMHO is a filter on the gentoo mailserver. 
> 

How is making the list subscriber only closing it?  I'm on about 20
other mailing lists, all subscribe only and I get no spam on them.
This problem has been solved long ago...there is no need to waste
server processor cycles for spam filtering on lists.  If people are
scared that there newbies 'won't be able to figure out' hot to
subscribe, I'm on some music development lists where the people on
there barely even know how to use the computer for anything else other
than email and can still figure it out.

I'm pretty sure that anybody that uses email can figure out how to
read a page, send an email and a send a reply when they get it.

burton

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Alan]

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On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 08:03:50AM -0700, Burton Samograd wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 02:28:08PM +0200, Henrik Treadup wrote:
> > Spam is (I assume) a problem not only for the gentoo-dev mailing list but 
> > also for all other gentoo lists. Closing gentoo-dev doesn't solve the 
> > problem. The other lists will still get spam.
> > Should the other lists also be closed? (Closing gentoo-newbies is probably 
> > a bad idea.) The solution IMHO is a filter on the gentoo mailserver. 
> > 
> 
> How is making the list subscriber only closing it?  I'm on about 20
> other mailing lists, all subscribe only and I get no spam on them.
> This problem has been solved long ago...there is no need to waste
> server processor cycles for spam filtering on lists.  If people are
> scared that there newbies 'won't be able to figure out' hot to
> subscribe, I'm on some music development lists where the people on
> there barely even know how to use the computer for anything else other
> than email and can still figure it out.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that anybody that uses email can figure out how to
> read a page, send an email and a send a reply when they get it.

I have to agree with this.  Someone mentioned the reason was
accessability to new users, but I'm in the same situation as Burton, on
a bunch of lists, all subscriber only, except for gimp-dev (which gets
spam as well, or did when I was still receiving mail to it).  My feeling
is that if a new users isn't smart enough to go to a web page and fill
in an email, then respond to a message, will the be able to post to the
list, and then find the list archives to search for any answers?  Of
course they could just asked to be cc'd on replies, but that is bad
netiquette, and we don't want to encourage that :) 

The other thing is that the only gentoo list I'm getting spam from is
gentoo-dev, so obviously someone got it on a spam list somewhere, and
why not close down the list with the problem (and the list less likely
to get newbies on it IMHO).  

Totally OT, I installed bogofilter this morning thanks to the
suggestions on the list, and it seems to be working fine so far.  Only
one piece of spam caught, but it's one for one so far :)  Kinda wierd
when you actually *want* spam (if only to catch it!)

Regards,

Alan


-- 
Alan "Arcterex" <alan@ufies.org>   -=][=-   http://arcterex.net
"I used to herd dairy cows. Now I herd lusers. Apart from the isolation, I
think I preferred the cows. They were better conversation, easier to milk, and
if they annoyed me enough, I could shoot them and eat them." -Rodger Donaldson

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Fredrik Jagenheim]

On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 09:17:04AM -0700, Alan wrote:
> I have to agree with this.  Someone mentioned the reason was
> accessability to new users, but I'm in the same situation as Burton, on
> a bunch of lists, all subscriber only, except for gimp-dev (which gets
> spam as well, or did when I was still receiving mail to it).  My feeling

And here is the thing I want to stress a little further. I think it's
worse for a mailinglist to lose people unsubscribing due to spam than
missing one or two questions from newbies who can't bother to
subscribe in the first place.

> Totally OT, I installed bogofilter this morning thanks to the
> suggestions on the list, and it seems to be working fine so far.  Only
> one piece of spam caught, but it's one for one so far :)  Kinda wierd
> when you actually *want* spam (if only to catch it!)

I installed spamassassin a month or so ago and since then I've spent
more time looking at spam than ever before. I just love to see what
keywords and phrases it has triggered on. :)

Brgds,
//Humming

Re: [gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Viktor Lakics]

In fact, I am so used to subscribing to  a mailing list that I did
not even realise that I do not have to subscribe here to ask a
question...

-- Viktor 

On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 08:03:50AM -0700, Burton Samograd wrote:
> How is making the list subscriber only closing it?  I'm on about 20
> other mailing lists, all subscribe only and I get no spam on them.
> I'm pretty sure that anybody that uses email can figure out how to
> read a page, send an email and a send a reply when they get it.
> 
> burton

[gentoo-dev] Re: Spam filters

[Mark Gordon]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 04:54:02 +0100
Viktor Lakics <viktor@lakics.net> wrote:

> In fact, I am so used to subscribing to  a mailing list that I did
> not even realise that I do not have to subscribe here to ask a
> question...

Same here. I see no major problems with any of the lists being
subscriber only. Anyone who can install a system should be able to
manage subscribing!
-- 
Mark Gordon

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Spam filters

[Alexander Gretencord]

On Saturday 28 September 2002 11:25, Mark Gordon wrote:

> Same here. I see no major problems with any of the lists being
> subscriber only. Anyone who can install a system should be able to
> manage subscribing!

This is one of the things I don't understand about gentoo. The About page says 
gentoo is aimed at power users, the installation process reflects just that 
and then they choose nano because it's easier for newbies and make the 
mailinglists non-subscribe-only because it's better for newbies? Sorry but 
somehow I think they should really think about this, are we newbie friendly 
or not?

Even if the answer is yes, everyone that managed to get anywhere near where 
they have to use nano to edit something will also manage to subscribe to a 
maillinglist!


Alex

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

[OT] spam hunting was Re: [gentoo-dev] Spam filters

[Alan]

> > Totally OT, I installed bogofilter this morning thanks to the
> > suggestions on the list, and it seems to be working fine so far.  Only
> > one piece of spam caught, but it's one for one so far :)  Kinda wierd
> > when you actually *want* spam (if only to catch it!)
> 
> I installed spamassassin a month or so ago and since then I've spent
> more time looking at spam than ever before. I just love to see what
> keywords and phrases it has triggered on. :)

I wonder if there's a site anywhere where one can submit there "best"
spamassassin results... I've gotten some pretty impressive 30+ spams
that I was quite proud of... I wouldn't be surprised if there were clans
of spam hunters trying to show off their highest ranking spams :)

Veering hopelessly off topic....

alan

-- 
Alan "Arcterex" <alan@ufies.org>   -=][=-   http://arcterex.net
"I used to herd dairy cows. Now I herd lusers. Apart from the isolation, I
think I preferred the cows. They were better conversation, easier to milk, and
if they annoyed me enough, I could shoot them and eat them." -Rodger Donaldson