[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[vprada]

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Hello everybody

As i'd told you in a past e-mail i'd made a first test to install Gentoo using a modified version of the Red Hat's installer.

By the moment what i'd did was this: 

      1.- i was looking for a "fast" way to get an installer soon, with no too much programming or modifications, so i get all the ebuilds needed to make a gentoo base system. 

      2.- After this i'd made a set of rpms packages of this ebuilds (ebuild X.ebuild rpm)

      3.- Then and did create an archive named comps, this is the archive used by anaconda to know which packages install. In this archive is written the list of packages used to make a base gentoo system.

      4.- Anaconda will detect the hardware in the machine, make disk partitions, create users, configure the root password, the boot loader, timezone, keyboard layout, etc... after that the installe gather all this information it will install the packages listed in the comps archive.


     5.- once that the installer install everythin i'd wrote the post-isntall procedure (this post-install procedure is written in python). In this post-install procedure i did take the information gathered by anaconda and i modify the gentoo configuration files (by example, in red hat the network configuration files are located in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts, with gentoo is in /etc/env.d/net)

     6.- After this i get Gentoo running and able to make an emerge rsync, and then emerge any additional package. 

- What i want that the installer do?

As i told you this was my first approach. I think that we need a fast way to multiply the number of "non-technical" users that can use Gentoo, and this was the fastest way that i did find.

The next steps will be to modify the python routines in Anaconda so we will don't need to make the base system rpms (what i mean with this is that the installer use emerge to install everything)

I want to modify the configuration routines in Anaconda (by example, network configuration routine will modified the /etc/env.d/net file and not the /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts)

With Anaconda we have 2 kinds of installation, Text and GUI Based. The bash prompt is an option but is available. Anaconda will always try first to make a GUI installation, if the video hardware detection fails Anaconda will try Text Installation, and if the Text installation fails Anaconda will abort. We have to modified this and if everything fails the user will always have the bash prompt to install everything manually.

I think that for some users the installer will make them feel that they don't have the control of the installation, and this is why they choose Gentoo ( in Fact i'd enjoy a lot take a machine a make partitions, configuration and everything mannualy), but for some other users the installer (this first one, and the incoming one) will make a lot easier install Gentoo linux.

I will need all your advices, colaboration and expertise to complete all the goals that i have with this project. The next week i will make an iso image of the anaconda installer, and i will upload the anaconda source code to the cvs with the modifications that i did. 

Thanks all
Víctor PRada

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[foser]

vprada@corvus.com.ve wrote:
> As i told you this was my first approach. I think that we need a fast way to multiply the number of "non-technical" users that can use Gentoo, and this was the fastest way that i did find.
> 

Not to put you down, but gentoo isn't aimed at non-technical users 
afaik. Why does every distro want to appeal to as much people as 
possible ? There's so much about gentoo which could use help in 
developing, an a fancy installer imo really isn't one of them (i don't 
see what it adds except in a lot more newbie traffic). Let people just 
start out with RH/Mandrake, move on to debian or similar and finally 
make their way to gentoo. By then they have the knowledge to use it and 
appreciate what it can and does.

Just my 2 cents (i speak for myself here).

- foser

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Simonics Zsolt]

Hi,

>From http://www.gentoo.org/index-about.html

"Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux distribution 
for x86, PowerPC, Sparc and Sparc64 that's geared towards Linux power users."
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry, but i think that this is not Anaconda Wizard's business. Don't
waste your time...


Ps.:Sorry for this brute honesty :/
-- 
Simca
simc@chello.hu
    

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Meir Kriheli]

On Sunday 02 June 2002 15:18, foser wrote:
> vprada@corvus.com.ve wrote:
> > As i told you this was my first approach. I think that we need a fast way
> > to multiply the number of "non-technical" users that can use Gentoo, and
> > this was the fastest way that i did find.
>
> Not to put you down, but gentoo isn't aimed at non-technical users
> afaik. Why does every distro want to appeal to as much people as
> possible ? There's so much about gentoo which could use help in
> developing, an a fancy installer imo really isn't one of them (i don't
> see what it adds except in a lot more newbie traffic). Let people just
> start out with RH/Mandrake, move on to debian or similar and finally
> make their way to gentoo. By then they have the knowledge to use it and
> appreciate what it can and does.
>
> Just my 2 cents (i speak for myself here).
>
> - foser

While I mostly agree, there's a place for such an installer. I want to build a 
binary distro based on Gentoo with frontend tools to portage. A beginner will 
use a fast distro and frontend tools. When he/she gains knowledge they can 
ditch the frontend and binary packages and use it as we do.

No need to reinstall a new distro or change settings - this will provide an 
easy migration path from newbies to power users - in the same package.
-- 
Meir Kriheli

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[David Chamberlain]

I have no problem with the idea of an installer.  The more tools the better.
On the other hand, a possible problem with Anaconda: I haven't used it, 
but I assume it's x86 only?  If so, we can't use it on ppc, sparc etc. 
 One of gentoo's greatest virtues is portability (look for more ports 
appearing over the next few months), and I would encourage anyone 
writing tools to bear this in mind.  For a quick fix, anaconda may be 
fine (we'll just live without the installer on ppc), but is there any 
reason why, in the long term, the --buildpkg/--usepkg features of 
portage couldn't be leveraged in place of the rpms?  A virtue of this is 
that portage itself could be tweaked to enhance the installer if 
necessary, since it's our tool, not RedHat's.

Regards,

David

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Meir Kriheli]

On Sunday 02 June 2002 17:16, David Chamberlain wrote:
> I have no problem with the idea of an installer.  The more tools the
> better. On the other hand, a possible problem with Anaconda: I haven't used
> it, but I assume it's x86 only?  If so, we can't use it on ppc, sparc etc.
> One of gentoo's greatest virtues is portability (look for more ports
> appearing over the next few months), and I would encourage anyone
> writing tools to bear this in mind.  For a quick fix, anaconda may be
> fine (we'll just live without the installer on ppc), but is there any
> reason why, in the long term, the --buildpkg/--usepkg features of
> portage couldn't be leveraged in place of the rpms?  A virtue of this is
> that portage itself could be tweaked to enhance the installer if
> necessary, since it's our tool, not RedHat's.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>

I intend to write one from scratch (using qt/e or fb/gtk+ as I need i18n). I 
think anaconda has too many redhat specific issues, and writing one from 
scratch would make a fun and interesting project.
-- 
Meir Kriheli

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[vprada]

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Hello

The advantage of Anaconda is that is written in python. If python runs in your architecture anaconda will run in your architecture.
As i told you too, this is the first approach, now i want to modify the anaconda's code to use emerge instead or rpm.

Thanks
Víctor Prada
On Jun 02 14:16, David Chamberlain <daybird@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]
>
> I have no problem with the idea of an installer.  The more tools the better.
> On the other hand, a possible problem with Anaconda: I haven't used it,
> but I assume it's x86 only?  If so, we can't use it on ppc, sparc etc.
>  One of gentoo's greatest virtues is portability (look for more ports
> appearing over the next few months), and I would encourage anyone
> writing tools to bear this in mind.  For a quick fix, anaconda may be
> fine (we'll just live without the installer on ppc), but is there any
> reason why, in the long term, the --buildpkg/--usepkg features of
> portage couldn't be leveraged in place of the rpms?  A virtue of this is
> that portage itself could be tweaked to enhance the installer if
> necessary, since it's our tool, not RedHat's.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Jon Nelson]

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 17:19:44 +0300
Meir Kriheli <mksoft@netvision.net.il> wrote:

> On Sunday 02 June 2002 17:16, David Chamberlain wrote:
> > I have no problem with the idea of an installer.  The more tools the
> > better. On the other hand, a possible problem with Anaconda: I haven't
> > used it, but I assume it's x86 only?  If so, we can't use it on ppc,
> > sparc etc. One of gentoo's greatest virtues is portability (look for
> > more ports appearing over the next few months), and I would encourage
> > anyone writing tools to bear this in mind.  For a quick fix, anaconda
> > may be fine (we'll just live without the installer on ppc), but is
> > there any reason why, in the long term, the --buildpkg/--usepkg
> > features of portage couldn't be leveraged in place of the rpms?  A
> > virtue of this is that portage itself could be tweaked to enhance the
> > installer if necessary, since it's our tool, not RedHat's.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> 
> I intend to write one from scratch (using qt/e or fb/gtk+ as I need
> i18n). I think anaconda has too many redhat specific issues, and writing
> one from scratch would make a fun and interesting project.

Another possibility is the installer that was from the short-lived
Progeny distro - it was written in pygtk and was quite nice.
IIRC they made it available when they bailed on the distro scene.


-- 
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth.

Jon Nelson <jnelson@jamponi.net>
C and Python Code Gardener

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[David Chamberlain]

Sounds great, Victor.  I didn't mean to sound down on your project.  In 
fact, when you're ready, I encourage you to contact the ppc developers 
so we can help you make adjustments so it will detect ppc hardware, 
partition mac disks, configure ppc bootloader, etc.

David

>The advantage of Anaconda is that is written in python. If python runs in your architecture anaconda will run in your architecture.
>As i told you too, this is the first approach, now i want to modify the anaconda's code to use emerge instead or rpm.
>
>Thanks
>Víctor Prada
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Matthew Kennedy]

Simonics Zsolt <simc@chello.hu> writes:

> "Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux distribution 
> for x86, PowerPC, Sparc and Sparc64 that's geared towards Linux power users."
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Sorry, but i think that this is not Anaconda Wizard's business. Don't
> waste your time...

Personally I feel this is definitely NOT a waste of time. I know what
it says on the website wrt. power users, but I don't think there's any
reason it needs to stay this way in the future. Just think, in the
future it could be "...geared to towards giving users power" ;)

Anyway AFIAK, such an installer will allow both Anaconda and plain
shell-based installation.

-- 
Matthew Kennedy
Gentoo Linux Developer
Bugs go in http://bugs.gentoo.org!

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[William Kenworthy]

It is also worth keeping in mind that expert/poweruser does not mandate
always using command line, manual, prone to human error methods. GUI's
can be very fast and efficient at certain tasks, and anything that can
help produce a quick, clean and efficient install (which arguably gentoo
isnt) can only be of benefit.

Actually, I would rather that the gentoo install be cleaned up instead
of going the anaconda route.  e.g., why is mkdir neccessary for
/mnt/gentoo?  The chroot method works, but surely some clever scripting
can improve this so the user doesnt have to keep switching around. 
i.e., automate the whole process - BUT - allow manuel intervention/input
at any stage - this is the bit anaconda, and Mandrake make harder than
should be neccessary.

I do suspect that no one system will suit all (which is why there each
distro is different!), but I think the gentoo method can be improved and
made into a real poweruser install - commandline, flexible and above
all, helpful to the user.  Its well on the way.

The above is a bit of a ramble I admit, but having installed two gentoo
systems (and about to start a third) as well as a number of RH and
Mandrake, I can say it is a bit painful, particularly if you make a typo
(e.g., get the grub boot partition wrong!) or switch screens so you
cannot pageup and see what network card was detected etc).

Billk


On Mon, 2002-06-03 at 07:49, Matthew Kennedy wrote:
> Simonics Zsolt <simc@chello.hu> writes:
> 
> > "Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux distribution 
> > for x86, PowerPC, Sparc and Sparc64 that's geared towards Linux power users."
> >                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Sorry, but i think that this is not Anaconda Wizard's business. Don't
> > waste your time...
> 
> Personally I feel this is definitely NOT a waste of time. I know what
> it says on the website wrt. power users, but I don't think there's any
> reason it needs to stay this way in the future. Just think, in the
> future it could be "...geared to towards giving users power" ;)
> 
> Anyway AFIAK, such an installer will allow both Anaconda and plain
> shell-based installation.
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Kennedy
> Gentoo Linux Developer
> Bugs go in http://bugs.gentoo.org!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Mark Bainter]

Matthew Kennedy [mkennedy@gentoo.org] wrote:
> Simonics Zsolt <simc@chello.hu> writes:
> 
> > "Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux distribution 
> > for x86, PowerPC, Sparc and Sparc64 that's geared towards Linux power users."
> >                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Sorry, but i think that this is not Anaconda Wizard's business. Don't
> > waste your time...
> 
> Personally I feel this is definitely NOT a waste of time. I know what
> it says on the website wrt. power users, but I don't think there's any
> reason it needs to stay this way in the future. Just think, in the
> future it could be "...geared to towards giving users power" ;)

The trouble with this is that once a distribution starts down this
path the trend seems to be to add more and more stuff for "newbies" 
at the expense of the power and flexibility that more advanced users
enjoy.  

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Mark Bainter]

William Kenworthy [billk@iinet.net.au] wrote:
> It is also worth keeping in mind that expert/poweruser does not mandate
> always using command line, manual, prone to human error methods. GUI's
> can be very fast and efficient at certain tasks, and anything that can
> help produce a quick, clean and efficient install (which arguably gentoo
> isnt) can only be of benefit.

I disagree with this.  "Quick" isn't necessarily the sign of a good
install.  And considering that building the packages is the biggest
timeeater when installing gentoo a pretty installer isn't going to help
that.

"clean and efficient" is apparently a subjective term, as I think 
gentoo already has that.  It's sure a hell of a lot more efficent
for me to do a gentoo install than to boot from a custom disk to 
setup my system, and then reboot to some other distro like mandrake
or RH and arm wrestle it into installing w/out breaking my setup
so that I can then go through and fix everything and remove spurious
dependencies and rebuild packages by hand. 

And I'd rather deal with my "human error methods" than the lack 
of flexibility and power inherent in a GUI install.  And I'd rather
not have all that extra fluff on my install CD.

I say if that is what you want, there is a list of available distros
as long as my arm.  Lets not trash this one just to have one more.

> The above is a bit of a ramble I admit, but having installed two gentoo
> systems (and about to start a third) as well as a number of RH and
> Mandrake, I can say it is a bit painful, particularly if you make a typo
> (e.g., get the grub boot partition wrong!) or switch screens so you
> cannot pageup and see what network card was detected etc).

Just as a note, one of the nice things about grub is that if you get
a partition wrong you can fix it right there from the grub boot screen.
That's hardly a big deal.

Also, you don't need to scroll up.  That's what dmesg is for.  While
I haven't checked myself, I'd be surprised if it wasn't on the boot
CD.  Or at least /var/log/boot.msg.  Myself, I generally know what's
in the system before I even begin installing it, so it's not been a
big issue for me.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Justin Lambert]

I for one have really grown to like the flexibility that I have during my 
Gentoo install.  One minor thing I do that I couldn't do with an installer is 
before I format I ftp my /usr/portage/distfiles somewhere else and even 
before I run the bootstrap script I emerge ncftp and copy that directory 
back.  It saves me a ton of time downloading things.  This would be the kind 
of things I (personally) would miss with an all in wonder installer.

My 2c
jl

On Sunday 02 June 2002 10:05 pm, Mark Bainter wrote:
> Matthew Kennedy [mkennedy@gentoo.org] wrote:
> > Simonics Zsolt <simc@chello.hu> writes:
> > > "Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux
> > > distribution for x86, PowerPC, Sparc and Sparc64 that's geared towards
> > > Linux power users." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry, but
> > > i think that this is not Anaconda Wizard's business. Don't waste your
> > > time...
> >
> > Personally I feel this is definitely NOT a waste of time. I know what
> > it says on the website wrt. power users, but I don't think there's any
> > reason it needs to stay this way in the future. Just think, in the
> > future it could be "...geared to towards giving users power" ;)
>
> The trouble with this is that once a distribution starts down this
> path the trend seems to be to add more and more stuff for "newbies"
> at the expense of the power and flexibility that more advanced users
> enjoy.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Matthew Kennedy]

Justin Lambert <jlambert@eml.cc> writes:

> back.  It saves me a ton of time downloading things.  This would be the kind 
> of things I (personally) would miss with an all in wonder installer.

Aren't you all missing the point? *Both* the plain shell-based
installer and the GUI would be available.

-- 
Matthew Kennedy
Gentoo Linux Developer
Bugs go in http://bugs.gentoo.org!

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Bjarke Sørensen]

On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:31:04PM -0500, Matthew Kennedy wrote:

> > back.  It saves me a ton of time downloading things.  This would be the kind 
> > of things I (personally) would miss with an all in wonder installer.
> Aren't you all missing the point? *Both* the plain shell-based
> installer and the GUI would be available.

That. And just make room for powerusers in the GUI. I would love a
simplistic installer GUI, which I'll create using dialog.

It'll only be a GUI for guiding your thru the steps of the install.
Letting the user do all important himself.

Btw, we are already two on the project which for the time is enough I
think.

-- 
| Bjarke Sørensen  /  9000.WASD 
|
|  There are 10 types of people in this world:
|  Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Alexander Gretencord]

On Monday 03 June 2002 03:22, William Kenworthy wrote:
> It is also worth keeping in mind that expert/poweruser does not mandate
> always using command line, manual, prone to human error methods. GUI's
> can be very fast and efficient at certain tasks, and anything that can
> help produce a quick, clean and efficient install (which arguably gentoo
> isnt) can only be of benefit.

As you said, for "certain tasks".

It is certainly good to display a tree of dependencies as an actual tree so 
you see what deps come from other deps. In the flat structure emerge displays 
them now you have to look at the ebuilds yourself to see this.

Partitioning a drive can be made easier or more appealing with a graphical 
representation but you can also just do the math and enter the numbers 
directly. This time it's just a question of the users preference. I like it 
better to enter the numbers directly (you don't have to do the blocks math 
and you should really know how many MB per partition you want so there's no 
need for a GUI, unless you're new to Linux, come from Windows and like to see 
a graph for everything you do :))

A quick install with all the settings you chose the last time would be great 
though if you know how you wanna setup your box but don't wanna type 
everything yourself. But still this has to be an addon just as the anaconda 
GUI would be so you can do the install the way you want it, all by hand. But 
especially for the gentoo server distribution a quick way to install a new 
box would be great (--usepkg + scripting for partitioning and what packages 
to install).

See I have my router in the basement all setup myself the gentoo way (I liked 
it pretty much although I have setup my workstation and the gameserver the 
same way before :)). Now suppose I wanna help my neighbour get on the net. 
With RedHat (or any other distro) I'd just insert the boot floppy the setup 
can make and have the exact same configuration as on my router.

> I can say it is a bit painful, particularly if you make a typo
> (e.g., get the grub boot partition wrong!) or switch screens so you
> cannot pageup and see what network card was detected etc).

Well there's always the bootcd with which you can fix it. For the netcard 
theres dmesg as well as your knowledge. You do know what network card you 
installed into your system don't you ? :)

Alex

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Grant Goodyear]

> Aren't you all missing the point? *Both* the plain shell-based
> installer and the GUI would be available.

I agree.  In fact, I like the idea of having the manual install,
the anaconda gui, and a cli openbsd-like installer (that a couple
of people seem to be working upon) all available.  First and
foremost, Gentoo Linux is about flexibility for the _users_!

Also, I would like to point out that the anaconda gui is primarily 
being developed for the Latinux distribution, which is using
Gentoo as its base.  I very much appreciate the fact that the
Latinux folks are keeping us informed and allowing us access
to their work.

-g2boojum-

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Victor R. Prada]

The Latinux distribution is a linux distribution based in RPMS and we 
use a modified version of Anaconda to intall it. Now Latinux want to use 
the portage system because this will allow to keep update our 
installations. Is a natural  choice for our distribution to use the same 
installer that we had been using from the beggining.

In either case we want to make the modifications in conjunction with the 
gentoo folks. All the comments aimed to enhance the installer will be 
welcome. We keep contact with the Gentoo Core developers and we are 
designing the anaconda's modifications with them.

Once the installer be ready, is a decision of the core team of Gentoo 
use it as the Gentoo Installer, in any case i don't think that me time 
is waste.

I think that a person become a "power user" not based in how hard was 
the installation process, a person become in a "power user" based in 
what he can do with the system once the system is installed.

Thanks to all
Víctor Prada


>_______________________________________________
>gentoo-dev mailing list
>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
>http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
>  
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Jeffrey D. Kowing]

Grant Goodyear writes:
 > I agree.  In fact, I like the idea of having the manual install,
 > the anaconda gui, and a cli openbsd-like installer (that a couple
 > of people seem to be working upon) all available.  First and
 > foremost, Gentoo Linux is about flexibility for the _users_!

One danger about auto-installers and auto-configurators is that they
often add complexity to the system to make it simpler for the
auto-tools but more difficult for system administrators trying to
figure out what was done "behind the scenes."  Sometimes the
configurators create their own special files that then override or
recreate the standard /etc files.  This makes it difficult for those
of us who just like to go straight to the /etc files and make the
change.  Also I've often followed scripts around for hours in RedHat
trying to figure out why my system is doing something I did not tell
it to do.  The scripts are often quite complex because they try to be
so smart.

I do not mean to discourage those who are building the auto tools,
just hopefully something to keep in mind.  As a side note, I
understand that configuration tools like webmin are pretty good about
simply being a nice front-end for working with the standard /etc files
without, for example, creating mysterious "secret" webmin
configuration files that override your own changes.

My two or maybe just one cents worth.  All gentoo developers, thanks
for you excellent work!  

-- 
Jeff Kowing
jeffrey.d.kowing1@jsc.nasa.gov

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Victor R. Prada]

Jeffrey D. Kowing wrote:

Hello

Part of the job that we are making with the Anaconda installer is modify 
thosw weird path used by RedHat and generate config files in the normal 
/etc (or in anycase the /etc/config-files needed by gentoo)

Besides this, another work that we are making in Corvus is a version of 
webmin for Gentoo Linux.

Thanks
Víctor Prada

>Grant Goodyear writes:
> > I agree.  In fact, I like the idea of having the manual install,
> > the anaconda gui, and a cli openbsd-like installer (that a couple
> > of people seem to be working upon) all available.  First and
> > foremost, Gentoo Linux is about flexibility for the _users_!
>
>One danger about auto-installers and auto-configurators is that they
>often add complexity to the system to make it simpler for the
>auto-tools but more difficult for system administrators trying to
>figure out what was done "behind the scenes."  Sometimes the
>configurators create their own special files that then override or
>recreate the standard /etc files.  This makes it difficult for those
>of us who just like to go straight to the /etc files and make the
>change.  Also I've often followed scripts around for hours in RedHat
>trying to figure out why my system is doing something I did not tell
>it to do.  The scripts are often quite complex because they try to be
>so smart.
>
>I do not mean to discourage those who are building the auto tools,
>just hopefully something to keep in mind.  As a side note, I
>understand that configuration tools like webmin are pretty good about
>simply being a nice front-end for working with the standard /etc files
>without, for example, creating mysterious "secret" webmin
>configuration files that override your own changes.
>
>My two or maybe just one cents worth.  All gentoo developers, thanks
>for you excellent work!  
>
>  
>


-- 
Lic. Víctor Prada
Lider Técnico Latinux-Gentoo
Corvus Latinoamérica c.a.
Caracas - Venezuela

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Installer (2) [LARGE]

[Mark Bainter]

Matthew Kennedy [mkennedy@gentoo.org] wrote:
> Justin Lambert <jlambert@eml.cc> writes:
> 
> > back.  It saves me a ton of time downloading things.  This would be the kind 
> > of things I (personally) would miss with an all in wonder installer.
> 
> Aren't you all missing the point? *Both* the plain shell-based
> installer and the GUI would be available.

A noble goal.  Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way.  
I see three potential outcomes to a project like this, based on the 
presupposition that an installer cannot possibly be as flexible as the manual
method we currently use.  I think it's a valid one, but I'm happy to argue it
if someone disputes this claim.

A) Because of the difficulties of getting the installer to play nice,
the flexibility of the current system is comprimised to make things 
easier for installer development.  This one isn't very likely with 
gentoo, but it could happen.

B) The installer is made to work within what we currently have.  
Users start to use it, and we get greener and greener people trying it.
Some of these people know enough to be dangerous (a common trait) 
and go out of the installer long enough to change something.  The
installer cannot possibly account for all possible changes to itself
so it wigs out.  This happens more often as time passes, causing 
frequent complaints to the list about "buggy" installer software. 
Eventually, to avoid this, most of the manual stuff is removed to 
protect the developers from the hordes of 20-watt bulbs who now 
have infested the list.

C) The installer handles most of the situations, but has become so
huge in the attempt that either it or the manual methods must go.

So no, I'm not missing the point.  I'm just looking forward far 
enough, and looking at other projects where this kind of thing has
happened or nearly so, and sounding the warning now, rather than 
later.

-- 
"If you've never walked into a parking meter, you're wasting valuable
reading time."
				--Eloise Beltz-Deck