[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Joshua Pollak]

I was going to suggest PEST, unrecoverable.org. A new version just
came out today, and the demo (unrecoverable.org/demo) looks pretty good.
I'm not a member of gentoo-dev, but I'll subscribe right now.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 10:23:29PM +0200, Dan Armak wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This has been brought up before, and as I understand someone objected to 
> bugzilla, which was suggested by Hallski and others. We should make this a 
> discussion on gentoo-dev and get a general agreement and drobbins' approval 
> before actually doing anything.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Dan Armak
> Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
> Matan, Israel
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-ebuild mailing list
> gentoo-ebuild@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-ebuild

Re: [gentoo-dev] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Bart Verwilst]

Damn, that PEST really looks good!
Would be cool to have that as bugzilla...
It will make squashing bugs much more fun! :o)

See ya ;)

On Tuesday 27 November 2001 21:27, you wrote:
|| I was going to suggest PEST, unrecoverable.org. A new version just
|| came out today, and the demo (unrecoverable.org/demo) looks pretty good.
|| I'm not a member of gentoo-dev, but I'll subscribe right now.

-- 
Bart Verwilst
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
Gent, Belgium

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:27:42 -0500
Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:

> I was going to suggest PEST, unrecoverable.org. A new version just
> came out today, and the demo (unrecoverable.org/demo) looks pretty good.
> I'm not a member of gentoo-dev, but I'll subscribe right now.

PEST at least looks nice. And it might even be easier to maintain than
bugzilla, for all I know. You might want to involve Thread
(thread@gentoo.org) in this "project", as he's the web/wiki/bugdb guy.


Kind regards,

Karl T

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:22:04 -0500
Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:

> Something along the lines of Bugzilla/SF's features/phpBugTracker, etc,
> should be fine, right? I could set it up on my own server, or I can set
> it up somewhere else. If the project is willing to accept the work, once
> done, I'll get started right away.

See if you can't get in contact with chadh on how to set it up on
cvs.gentoo.org (which perhaps should get a new alias: bugs.gentoo.org ?).

We should have at least two modes for the bugtracker: end-user and
developer. The full-blown bugzilla interface is a bit intimidating for
first-time end-users, so they should by default get an easy-to-use
interface.

The regular developers should get the full-blown interface, I guess.

The main thing about the bugtracker is that we should _USE_ it. So we'll
just have to keep tweaking it until everybody uses it for adding ebuilds,
bug reports, wishes, etc.

In fact, we should perhaps rename it from "bugtracker" to "issuetracker",
since we want to have it handle more than just bugs: we want all new
ebuilds to be submitted through it, so that it can help us not forget half
of the ebuilds that get submitted.

Karl T

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Mikael Hallendal]

ons 2001-11-28 klockan 16.21 skrev Karl Trygve Kalleberg:

> The main thing about the bugtracker is that we should _USE_ it. So we'll
> just have to keep tweaking it until everybody uses it for adding ebuilds,
> bug reports, wishes, etc.

Amen!

> In fact, we should perhaps rename it from "bugtracker" to "issuetracker",
> since we want to have it handle more than just bugs: we want all new
> ebuilds to be submitted through it, so that it can help us not forget half
> of the ebuilds that get submitted.

I agree fully with you here. Let's call it issuetracking (it's a far
better name for it). And lets use it for everything!

Regards,
  Mikael Hallendal

-- 
Mikael Hallendal              http://micke.hallendal.net/
Stockholm, Sweden             Cell: +46 (0)709 718 918

[gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Joshua Pollak]

Ok,

First off, I agree calling it issuetracker is a better idea than
bugtracker, because of the desire to handle ebuilds/feature
requests/etc. Also, I definately agree, an easy to use interface is very
important. That's mainly why I don't like bugzilla very much.

I think PEST would be the best system to use, I just came across it
yesterday when searching for bug tracking software. The reasons I
think its a good option are:

- Good looking, simple interface, should be easy to use
- Has advanced features so project members should be able to do what
they need.
- Written in PHP so its easy to modify
- Under active development and seems to have a decent sized community,
so its probably not going to go anywhere.

So if Thread and chadh would like to contact me about letting me set
something up, that would be cool. If anyone has any
suggestions/comments, let me know. I think I will start in the mean time
by setting up a test installation on my own server to see how hard it is
to install and see what the issues are.

-Josh


On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:21:58PM +0100, Karl Trygve Kalleberg wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:22:04 -0500
> Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:
> 
> > Something along the lines of Bugzilla/SF's features/phpBugTracker, etc,
> > should be fine, right? I could set it up on my own server, or I can set
> > it up somewhere else. If the project is willing to accept the work, once
> > done, I'll get started right away.
> 
> See if you can't get in contact with chadh on how to set it up on
> cvs.gentoo.org (which perhaps should get a new alias: bugs.gentoo.org ?).
> 
> We should have at least two modes for the bugtracker: end-user and
> developer. The full-blown bugzilla interface is a bit intimidating for
> first-time end-users, so they should by default get an easy-to-use
> interface.
> 
> The regular developers should get the full-blown interface, I guess.
> 
> The main thing about the bugtracker is that we should _USE_ it. So we'll
> just have to keep tweaking it until everybody uses it for adding ebuilds,
> bug reports, wishes, etc.
> 
> In fact, we should perhaps rename it from "bugtracker" to "issuetracker",
> since we want to have it handle more than just bugs: we want all new
> ebuilds to be submitted through it, so that it can help us not forget half
> of the ebuilds that get submitted.
> 
> Karl T
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Mikael Hallendal]

ons 2001-11-28 klockan 15.56 skrev Joshua Pollak:
> Ok,
> 
> First off, I agree calling it issuetracker is a better idea than
> bugtracker, because of the desire to handle ebuilds/feature
> requests/etc. Also, I definately agree, an easy to use interface is very
> important. That's mainly why I don't like bugzilla very much.
> 
> I think PEST would be the best system to use, I just came across it
> yesterday when searching for bug tracking software. The reasons I
> think its a good option are:
> 
> - Good looking, simple interface, should be easy to use

In what way is it easier to use than bugzilla? I thought the interface
(at least the one in the demo) to be quite ugly and non-intuitive.

> So if Thread and chadh would like to contact me about letting me set
> something up, that would be cool. If anyone has any
> suggestions/comments, let me know. I think I will start in the mean time
> by setting up a test installation on my own server to see how hard it is
> to install and see what the issues are.

 
 -Josh
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:21:58PM +0100, Karl Trygve Kalleberg wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:22:04 -0500
> > Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > Something along the lines of Bugzilla/SF's features/phpBugTracker, etc,
> > > should be fine, right? I could set it up on my own server, or I can set
> > > it up somewhere else. If the project is willing to accept the work, once
> > > done, I'll get started right away.
> > 
> > See if you can't get in contact with chadh on how to set it up on
> > cvs.gentoo.org (which perhaps should get a new alias: bugs.gentoo.org ?).
> > 
> > We should have at least two modes for the bugtracker: end-user and
> > developer. The full-blown bugzilla interface is a bit intimidating for
> > first-time end-users, so they should by default get an easy-to-use
> > interface.
> > 
> > The regular developers should get the full-blown interface, I guess.
> > 
> > The main thing about the bugtracker is that we should _USE_ it. So we'll
> > just have to keep tweaking it until everybody uses it for adding ebuilds,
> > bug reports, wishes, etc.
> > 
> > In fact, we should perhaps rename it from "bugtracker" to "issuetracker",
> > since we want to have it handle more than just bugs: we want all new
> > ebuilds to be submitted through it, so that it can help us not forget half
> > of the ebuilds that get submitted.
> > 
> > Karl T
> > _______________________________________________
> > gentoo-dev mailing list
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> > http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
> 
-- 
Mikael Hallendal              http://micke.hallendal.net/
Stockholm, Sweden             Cell: +46 (0)709 718 918

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Mikael Hallendal]

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ons 2001-11-28 klockan 16.27 skrev Mikael Hallendal:

Sorry, accidentaly sent the mail.

> > I think PEST would be the best system to use, I just came across it
> > yesterday when searching for bug tracking software. The reasons I
> > think its a good option are:
> > 
> > - Good looking, simple interface, should be easy to use
> 
> In what way is it easier to use than bugzilla? I thought the interface
> (at least the one in the demo) to be quite ugly and non-intuitive.
> 
> > So if Thread and chadh would like to contact me about letting me set
> > something up, that would be cool. If anyone has any
> > suggestions/comments, let me know. I think I will start in the mean time
> > by setting up a test installation on my own server to see how hard it is
> > to install and see what the issues are.

Before we start using any that we should setup and test different system
(roundup, PEST, Bugzilla and GNAT is some that come to mind directly).

Regards,
  Mikael Hallendal

-- 

Mikael Hallendal
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team Leader
CodeFactory AB, Stockholm, Sweden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Jon Nelson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:56:00 -0500
Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:

..
> I think PEST would be the best system to use, I just came across it
> yesterday when searching for bug tracking software. The reasons I
> think its a good option are:
> 
> - Good looking, simple interface, should be easy to use
> - Has advanced features so project members should be able to do what
> they need.
> - Written in PHP so its easy to modify
> - Under active development and seems to have a decent sized community,
> so its probably not going to go anywhere.

I would like to mention Roundup (written in Python, very perty, and
very easy to use and setup -- took me 15 minutes and doesn't depend
on anything other than mail and python.)

Also, I'd like to mention debbugs -- The Debian Bugtracking system.
Written in Perl, it has handled over 100k bugs for Debian easily,
and is in use in quite a few other projects, incl. FreeRADIUS and 
others.  Also very easy to setup -- took me about 25 minutes and
I didn't know what I was doing.  Email based but has nice web
interface.  Also quite easy to use.  Check out bugs.debian.org.

Given my past experiences with gnats, rt, debbugs, and bugzilla,
I'd say bugzilla is *way* too complex for people to use effectively,
and has perhaps the most horrid interface I've ever experienced.
debbugs was the easiest, and the little bit that I've used roundup
makes me feel fairly comfortable in recommending it.

In summary, usability is far and away the most important thing
in a bug tracking/issue tracking system, and a objective analysis
is probably in order.

Just my two cents.
-- 
Jon Nelson
jnelson@jamponi.net
C and Python Programmer
Motorcycle Enthusiast

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Mikael Hallendal]

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ons 2001-11-28 klockan 16.37 skrev Jon Nelson:

> I would like to mention Roundup (written in Python, very perty, and
> very easy to use and setup -- took me 15 minutes and doesn't depend
> on anything other than mail and python.)

Did you set it up on a Gentoo machine. I just couldn't get it working on
my Gentoo (RC4) system, and I spent a couple of errors on it. Might have
been RC4 issues or my lack of Python-knowledge.

> Given my past experiences with gnats, rt, debbugs, and bugzilla,
> I'd say bugzilla is *way* too complex for people to use effectively,
> and has perhaps the most horrid interface I've ever experienced.
> debbugs was the easiest, and the little bit that I've used roundup
> makes me feel fairly comfortable in recommending it.

As said before, this is the _default_ interface too bugzilla which we
have no intention of using (at least not for endusers). Bugzilla is
complex before it's _very_ powerful. But I agree, the default interface
is too complex for endusers even though most people have no problems
adding a new bug. The complexety is when trying to find if a bug is
already in there. 
 
> In summary, usability is far and away the most important thing
> in a bug tracking/issue tracking system, and a objective analysis
> is probably in order.

This is very true while talking about endusers. When talking about
developers I think the most important thing is that it can handle all
the things we need to work effectivly. I also think none of the Gentoo
developers will have problems learning Bugzilla if they set there mind
to it.

Regards,
  Mikael Hallendal
-- 

Mikael Hallendal
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team Leader
CodeFactory AB, Stockholm, Sweden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Joshua Pollak]

> > In summary, usability is far and away the most important thing
> > in a bug tracking/issue tracking system, and a objective analysis
> > is probably in order.

I agree usability is the most important issue, which is why I thought
PEST was the best solution of the ones I could find. I had not heard of
Roundup, gnats, or rt, but I'll check them out. I think Bugzilla and
Debbugs both have serious usability issues. They are both very confusing
to use and just plain messy and ugly.

Perhaps the simplified bugzilla interface is cleaner and easier to use,
but why subject end users to a limited interface when there are systems
out there that are easy to use and powerful, in the same interface?

> the things we need to work effectivly. I also think none of the Gentoo
> developers will have problems learning Bugzilla if they set there mind
> to it.

I have no doubt that is true, but I respectfully disagree that this is
something the Gentoo developers should be spending their time with. A
bug tracking system should be quick and intuitive, not something that
takes a long while to learn, with a complicated interface. At this
point, I think just having a database where bugs/ebuilds/etc can start
being registered is far more important than having an interface that
takes time to learn. I mean, if it takes a while to learn, why would
people bother using, when then can just keep going as they are?

Someone critizized Pest's interface... I was wondering what the problem
with it was? I heard quite a few positive comments about it on the
Gentoo-user list, and I thought  it was a very clean system. The demo is
a bit messy with all the garbage projects and bugs, but the interface
was very nice I thought. Although the Demo does not show it, the version
that came out yesterday has a severity option as well.

I'll take a look at the other tracking options as well.

-Josh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Jon Nelson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:28:28 -0500
Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:

> > > In summary, usability is far and away the most important thing
> > > in a bug tracking/issue tracking system, and a objective analysis
> > > is probably in order.
> 
> I agree usability is the most important issue, which is why I thought
> PEST was the best solution of the ones I could find. I had not heard of
> Roundup, gnats, or rt, but I'll check them out. I think Bugzilla and
> Debbugs both have serious usability issues. They are both very confusing
> to use and just plain messy and ugly.

You've never heard of gnats or rt? Wow. What did you find confusing
about debbugs? Have you ever used it? Did you look at the URL I 
provided?  I've been a Debian developer for many years (as well
as RedHat and other non-Linux) and find debbugs the 'best' of the
bug / issue tracking softwares I've used. One of the Debian developers
converted it for use with a postgresql database, if that is
relevant.

I still place my votes in (this order): debbugs, roundup.  I don't know
PEST and I am not a fan of PHP (I prefer real languages like Python
and C) -- there's more to life than the web, and it would appear that
PEST is web-only.  debbugs is mail and web, same as roundup.

> Perhaps the simplified bugzilla interface is cleaner and easier to use,
> but why subject end users to a limited interface when there are systems
> out there that are easy to use and powerful, in the same interface?

I agree here very much.

> > the things we need to work effectivly. I also think none of the Gentoo
> > developers will have problems learning Bugzilla if they set there mind
> > to it.
> 
> I have no doubt that is true, but I respectfully disagree that this is
> something the Gentoo developers should be spending their time with. A
> bug tracking system should be quick and intuitive, not something that
> takes a long while to learn, with a complicated interface. At this
> point, I think just having a database where bugs/ebuilds/etc can start
> being registered is far more important than having an interface that
> takes time to learn. I mean, if it takes a while to learn, why would
> people bother using, when then can just keep going as they are?


-- 
Jon Nelson                \|/ ____ \|/   Gort,
jnelson@securepipe.com    "@'/ ,. \`@"   Klaatu
C and Python Programmer   /_| \__/ |_\   barada
Motorcycle Enthusiast        \__U_/      nikto.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Joshua Pollak]

On Wednesday 28 November 2001 12:06, you wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:28:28 -0500
>
> Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:
> > > > In summary, usability is far and away the most important thing
> > > > in a bug tracking/issue tracking system, and a objective analysis
> > > > is probably in order.
> >
> > I agree usability is the most important issue, which is why I thought
> > PEST was the best solution of the ones I could find. I had not heard of
> > Roundup, gnats, or rt, but I'll check them out. I think Bugzilla and
> > Debbugs both have serious usability issues. They are both very confusing
> > to use and just plain messy and ugly.
>
> You've never heard of gnats or rt? Wow. What did you find confusing
> about debbugs? Have you ever used it? Did you look at the URL I

I dunno why I haven't heard of gnats and rt, perhaps either I've been living 
under a rock, or I've used them without knowing it. Most bugs I've filed have 
been with SourceForge projects, Mozilla, and Debian, so those are the systems 
I'm most familiar with.

I have no doubt Debbugs is the most feature full of the systems, and I do 
like the email interface, however, I find the web interface is complicated 
and busy, and very hard to do anything with. Systems like Roundup (I just 
took a look at it) and PEST are (in my opinion) much easier for both novices 
and experts, mainly because you spend so much less time looking for things.

> I still place my votes in (this order): debbugs, roundup.  I don't know
> PEST and I am not a fan of PHP (I prefer real languages like Python
> and C) -- there's more to life than the web, and it would appear that
> PEST is web-only.  debbugs is mail and web, same as roundup.

This is a good argument, and I only chose PEST because I prefer PHP to Perl. 
However, Python is definately a good language to implement in, and if email 
and command-line interfaces are desired, I think Roundup is a great solution.

Although I do hear PHP has GTK bindings now... ;)

So I change my proposal to implement the bug tracker in Roundup, to satisfy 
the demand for an email interface.

-Josh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Mikael Hallendal]

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Hi!
---

To stop this endless debate on issue tracking (which won't go nowhere in
current state).

Can someone start a thread on our requirements for this system so that
we other can fill in. I would do it myself if it wasn't that I have very
little time this week...

After we have a list of requirements it should be easy to rule out those
systems that doesn't meet them and make an assumption to effort to make
those systems come to a point where we like them.

This approach will get us somewhere much quicker than everyone telling
again and again how great there preffered issue tracker is.

Regards,
  Mikael Hallendal

-- 

Mikael Hallendal
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team Leader
CodeFactory AB, Stockholm, Sweden


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[gentoo-dev] IssueTracker Requirements

[Joshua Pollak]

Ok,

Here is a list of issuetracker requirements, as I remember them. They are not 
sorted in any particular order of importance, although things I think 
everyone can agree are 'nice things to have but not show stoppers' are lower 
down the list:

email interface
easy to use web interface
clean, modifiable code base
multiple package support
easy for newbies
	- quick to add bugs (most important)
	- search, find duplicates (almost as important)
	- update status and communicate with developers
powerful for developers
irc interface bot
implemented in a real language (not PHP, etc)
desktop user interface (GUI?, command-line?)

Current candidates, with implementation language, and URL:
Because I can't resist, I've included one line for both upside and downside 
to each package, as I see it.

* Roundup
	- Python
	- http://roundup.sf.net
	- Plus: Email interface, passable web interface, command-line interface
	- Unfamiliar to many of us.

* Bugzilla
	- ???
	- http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bugzilla/
	- Plus side: Monster program with basically every feature imaginable
	- Downs: large, large learning curve.

* PEST
	- PHP
	- http://unrecoverable.org
	- Plus side: cute Web interface, DB storage (good for other interfaces)
	- Downside: PHP, no mail interface

* Debian BTS
	- "most of the code is written in Perl5"
	- http://www.benham.net/debbugs/
	- Plus: "now has a fairly rich feature set", everything via email
	- Down: "system has grown fairly organically", kludgy web interface
(quotes are from Debian BTS website)

* GNATS
	- everything
	- http://www.gnu.org/software/gnats/
	- Plus: Official GNU software
	- Downs: Web, TK, etc interfaces are seperate, install looks like a pain 

* Improve current dev-wiki
	- ???
	- I must be blind, because I can no longer see the link to the wiki.
	- Gentoo specific project, we decide how it should be done
	- Gentoo specific project, lots of work, risk wasting time repeating other 
peoples work.

Re: [gentoo-dev] IssueTracker Requirements

[Jon Nelson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:38:33 -0500
Joshua Pollak <josh@offthehill.org> wrote:

> Current candidates, with implementation language, and URL:
> Because I can't resist, I've included one line for both upside and downside 
> to each package, as I see it.

I agree with pretty much everything said here.
I personally feel that Roundup is the most 'perty',
and being written in Python *with a goal in mind* makes me feel
much more comfortable about the code and the language used.

My vote: Roundup
2nd place: debbugs (the web interface isn't *that* bad)

-- 
Jon Nelson
jnelson@jamponi.net
C and Python Programmer
Motorcycle Enthusiast

Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Bart Verwilst]

Actually i like PEST the most...
Just my personal opinion ofcourse :)
PEST is easy to look over, and with an ability to still search for bugID or
packagename (don't know if it's inthere), it would work great imho...

Just my 2 Euro...

--

Bart Verwilst
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
Gent, Belgium

[gentoo-dev] Re: Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Andreas Voegele]

Mikael Hallendal writes:

> As said before, this is the _default_ interface too bugzilla which
> we have no intention of using (at least not for endusers).
  ^^
Has there already been a decision to use Bugzilla?

> Bugzilla is complex before it's _very_ powerful. But I agree, the
> default interface is too complex [...]

The problem is that web interfaces generally suck because of the poor
GUI elements that HTML provides.  For example, the text entry's
editing features are really poor compared to the features of real text
editors.

How will users select a package in the Bug Tracking System if there
are hundreds or even thousands of packages?  Do they have to scroll
through endless lists?

I prefer to write my reports with a text editor and to send the
reports by electronic mail.  It's much easier to add patches and
ebuild scripts to electronic mail than to add them to reports sent
through a web interface - at least if you're using Emacs to write your
mail :]

The Debian BTS uses electronic mail.  And there are at least two
programs, e.g. reportbug, which is written in Python, that end-users
can use to send bug reports.

> This is very true while talking about endusers. When talking about
> developers I think the most important thing is that it can handle
> all the things we need to work effectivly.

Hm, do you think that all the developers need/want the same things?

What's wrong with the Debian BTS?

-- 
Andreas

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Joshua Pollak]

> How will users select a package in the Bug Tracking System if there
> are hundreds or even thousands of packages?  Do they have to scroll
> through endless lists?

Well, I would break it down so you choose category, then package. That should 
make it short enough to search by.

> The Debian BTS uses electronic mail.  And there are at least two
> programs, e.g. reportbug, which is written in Python, that end-users
> can use to send bug reports.

Reportbug is usually how I've worked with Debbugs, and its pretty handy, but 
if you don't remember exactly how to spell a package name, it can be a 
serious pain. Also, browsing through all the other bugs to match one up with 
yours can be a bit of a pain, although its a nice feature.

Anyway, I suppose Debbugs isn't a bad option, but I am really, really, really 
repulsed by its web interface. I agree the web interface isn't always the 
best one for entering bugs, but I think a clean web interface is the easiest 
way to update bug status and keep track of what bugs should be worked on and 
where they are in progress.

Debbugs search options and the search display are amazingly annoying... It 
doesn't categorize the searches in any meaningful way, or allow you to adjust 
the categorization. I think a system like PEST or ReportBugs, where it is 
categorized, and you can choose the sort method is very important and useful. 
Also, because Debian's search doesn't show the bugs in a tabular format, its 
very hard to survey the returned bugs and see whats going on.

-Josh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Jon Nelson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:56:50 -0500
Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:

> > How will users select a package in the Bug Tracking System if there
> > are hundreds or even thousands of packages?  Do they have to scroll
> > through endless lists?
> 
> Well, I would break it down so you choose category, then package. That should 
> make it short enough to search by.
> 
> > The Debian BTS uses electronic mail.  And there are at least two
> > programs, e.g. reportbug, which is written in Python, that end-users
> > can use to send bug reports.
..
> Anyway, I suppose Debbugs isn't a bad option, but I am really, really, really 
> repulsed by its web interface. I agree the web interface isn't always the 
> best one for entering bugs, but I think a clean web interface is the easiest 
> way to update bug status and keep track of what bugs should be worked on and 
> where they are in progress.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to like how debbugs works but
you don't like the web interface.  It would seem to me that the web
interface to a system as fairly simple as debbugs would be easy enough
to alter if you didn't like it.  However, you still didn't mention
whether or not you've looked at http://bugs.debian.org -- personally,
I find the interface *easier* to use than any other.  Below is an
taken from that page on various ways to access bug reports.
It doesn't look too hard to me.

      http://bugs.debian.org/number 
      http://bugs.debian.org/package 
      http://bugs.debian.org/src:sourcepackage 
      http://bugs.debian.org/maintainer@email.address 
      http://bugs.debian.org/from:submitter@email.address 

I haven't used roundup for more than "I got it working", but it appears
to be OK, and a much simpler code base than debbugs.

However, I'll admit that almost all of my work with debbugs has been
via email, and I find it quite useable in that manner.

I really *must* set up roundup and play with it some more.

Oh, and Python does, of course, have GTK bindings.  I use them
every day at my work.

-- 
Jon Nelson
jnelson@jamponi.net
C and Python Programmer
Motorcycle Enthusiast

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Joshua Pollak]

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to like how debbugs works but
> you don't like the web interface.  It would seem to me that the web
> interface to a system as fairly simple as debbugs would be easy enough
> to alter if you didn't like it.  However, you still didn't mention
> whether or not you've looked at http://bugs.debian.org -- personally,
> I find the interface *easier* to use than any other.  Below is an

To me the bug.debian.org interface (Yes, I've looked at it and I'm fairly 
familiar with it) is just a console interface dumped to HTML form. It really 
doesn't take advantage of the graphical nature of the web, and I'm not 
talking about flashing gif's or anything, I mean Tabluar display of the bugs 
(I'm big on this), quickly changing how the bug listing is sorted (age, 
severity, class, project, whatever), easy filtering, etc. Ok, so bugs are 
categorized when you do a search in bug.debian.org, but its not all that 
great. As far as I can tell, there are 5 bugs on 2 full, busy, hard to read 
pages worth of scrolling for the python2.1 package... With something with a 
better gui, those 5 bugs could be represented on 5 lines, no scrolling, and 
would be easier to get a handle on.

There is some serious stuff lacking in the ease of use field for debbugs. But 
I agree, its very powerful. Basically, I think Debbugs falls into the same 
category as bugzilla: Large, hard for newbies to use, and definately not all 
that user friendly for experts either, even if they know what they are doing.

> I haven't used roundup for more than "I got it working", but it appears
> to be OK, and a much simpler code base than debbugs.

Simpler code base is a real bug plus.

> Oh, and Python does, of course, have GTK bindings.  I use them
> every day at my work.

Of course, I was just joking when I mentioned PHP's GTK bindings. ;)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposed Issuetracker via PEST

[Mikael Hallendal]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3582 bytes --]

ons 2001-11-28 klockan 18.11 skrev Andreas Voegele:
> Mikael Hallendal writes:
> 
> > As said before, this is the _default_ interface too bugzilla which
> > we have no intention of using (at least not for endusers).
>   ^^
> Has there already been a decision to use Bugzilla?

No but there has been extensive discussions about using it and those
discussions has been based on writing a our own nice interface too it.
 
> > Bugzilla is complex before it's _very_ powerful. But I agree, the
> > default interface is too complex [...]
> 
> The problem is that web interfaces generally suck because of the poor
> GUI elements that HTML provides.  For example, the text entry's
> editing features are really poor compared to the features of real text
> editors.
> 
> How will users select a package in the Bug Tracking System if there
> are hundreds or even thousands of packages?  Do they have to scroll
> through endless lists?

I'm not sure how we should categorize the packages. Currently I think
that bugreports should go per team (ie. if you find a bug in a package
that is maintained by Desktop team you report it as such a bug rather
than that actuall package). This fits very well into the current setup
we have in Gentoo.

If we have as in Debian (which I hope we never have) that one person
only can make changes to a package it should be reported per package.
 
> I prefer to write my reports with a text editor and to send the
> reports by electronic mail.  It's much easier to add patches and
> ebuild scripts to electronic mail than to add them to reports sent
> through a web interface - at least if you're using Emacs to write your
> mail :]

I agree that there should be a way to report bugs through email. This is
afaik possible in the bugzilla used by GNOME. Also, BugBuddy is a GNOME
application to report bugs to bugzilla, we might be able to tweek it if
we decide to use Bugzilla.

> The Debian BTS uses electronic mail.  And there are at least two
> programs, e.g. reportbug, which is written in Python, that end-users
> can use to send bug reports.

I agree with Joshua that it's very important to have a nice webui to
look at the bugs, search among them etc.
We should (imho) also be able to connect the issuetracking system to IRC
(at least for lookups) using a bot. I don't know how easy this is with
Debbug or Roundup (I guess at least Debbug has something like this?)

> > This is very true while talking about endusers. When talking about
> > developers I think the most important thing is that it can handle
> > all the things we need to work effectivly.
> 
> Hm, do you think that all the developers need/want the same things?

Off course not, that's why we need something that fits all (and in my
opinion we should be able to make Bugzilla do so). If we use something
that hasn't all the features we want we will have to spend time to
implement them (This might not be a bad idea since we will be helping
another project that way).
 
> What's wrong with the Debian BTS?

I have never used it and I think most of us haven't. This is a
discussion about what to use. Nothing has been decided.

Currently we seem to be in the state where we collect information about
which ones are available. And those I can come up with right now that's
been suggested are:

* Roundup
* Bugzilla
* PEST
* Debian BTS
* GNATS
* Improve current dev-wiki

Regards,
  Mikael Hallendal

-- 

Mikael Hallendal
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team Leader
CodeFactory AB, Stockholm, Sweden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Chad Huneycutt]

On Wed, 2001-11-28 at 10:21, Karl Trygve Kalleberg wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:22:04 -0500
> Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:
> 
> > Something along the lines of Bugzilla/SF's features/phpBugTracker, etc,
> > should be fine, right? I could set it up on my own server, or I can set
> > it up somewhere else. If the project is willing to accept the work, once
> > done, I'll get started right away.
> 
> See if you can't get in contact with chadh on how to set it up on
> cvs.gentoo.org (which perhaps should get a new alias: bugs.gentoo.org ?).

Huh?!  Someone else is in charge of cvs.gentoo.org, not me.

Chad

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [gentoo-ebuild] Ebuild integration / ignoring

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg]

On 28 Nov 2001 10:06:10 -0500
Chad Huneycutt <chadh@jomama.dyndns.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2001-11-28 at 10:21, Karl Trygve Kalleberg wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:22:04 -0500
> > Joshua Pollak <pardsbane@offthehill.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > Something along the lines of Bugzilla/SF's features/phpBugTracker,
etc,
> > > should be fine, right? I could set it up on my own server, or I can
set
> > > it up somewhere else. If the project is willing to accept the work,
once
> > > done, I'll get started right away.
> > 
> > See if you can't get in contact with chadh on how to set it up on
> > cvs.gentoo.org (which perhaps should get a new alias: bugs.gentoo.org
?).
> 
> Huh?!  Someone else is in charge of cvs.gentoo.org, not me.

Chadh, kabau, drobbins, you're all americans to me :p

No, really. I meant kabau.


Kind regards,

Karl T