[gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Dan Armak]

Hi all,

Just an idea: what if users (those who agree, of course), when doing emerge 
rsync, transmit to the gentoo server anonymous info on which packages they 
have installed? If not, maybe at least the developers?

The rationale: I have twice now faced a problem where a complex ebuild I 
built and commited quite some time ago wasn't functioning. And I said to 
myself, this is a very important program who's ebuild isn't working! If this 
was a generic problem I would be flooded with emails from the other people 
who use it! And I wanted to find these other people who used it, but there 
were none among the gentoo developers, and I couldn't contact any of the 
users.

This way, we'll know what ebuilds are *known* to work properly - at least 
under some h/w configurations - and most importantly, in what combinations 
and revisions. And it will give the users a painless way to help us.

Finally, we'll also know what packages are most often used, in what 
combinations, and thus (as far as we work for our users) what areas to 
concentrate upon.

What do you think?


-- 

Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
Matan, Israel

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Daniel Robbins]

On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:40:19PM +0300, Dan Armak wrote:

> This way, we'll know what ebuilds are *known* to work properly - at least 
> under some h/w configurations - and most importantly, in what combinations 
> and revisions. And it will give the users a painless way to help us.
> 
> Finally, we'll also know what packages are most often used, in what 
> combinations, and thus (as far as we work for our users) what areas to 
> concentrate upon.
> 
> What do you think?

Interesting idea.  Something to think about for a future version of Portage.

Best Regards,

-- 
Daniel Robbins					<drobbins@gentoo.org>
Chief Architect/President			http://www.gentoo.org 
Gentoo Technologies, Inc.			

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Dan Armak]

On Monday 30 July 2001 20:24, you wrote:
> Daniel Robbins <drobbins@gentoo.org> writes:
>
> Hmm, generally I'm (and _many_ others) are against this type of
> sending information about which programs you use and such. Statistics
> of which packages people use we can probably get from the ftp-server
> (to see which files are most requested).
This information would almost irrelevant IMHO. Many packages are downloaded 
from their homesites, and some are downloaded but not installed, and some are 
uninstalled, etc.

As for privacy: personally I wouldn't be against reporting my own usage in 
this way. So if make such a system and turn it off by default, there 
shuoldn't be a problem. Of course, if most Gentoo users keep it off, the data 
it gives us won't be as reliable. But in this sense I think it's worth a try.


>
> I think however that we should create a script (if there isn't one
> already) that helps a user to bugreport. Perhaps something like:
>
> 1) Which package do you have problem with
> 2) Describe the problem
> 3) The program creates a list of all installed packages and add it.
> 4) Mail the bugreport to gentoo-dev.

That's also important. Such a script and my proposal are complementary, both 
are best. The scripts reports failures and the system reports successes.


-- 

Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
Matan, Israel

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Mikael Hallendal]

Dan Armak <danarmak@gentoo.org> writes:

> As for privacy: personally I wouldn't be against reporting my own
> usage in this way. So if make such a system and turn it off by
> default, there shuoldn't be a problem. Of course, if most Gentoo users
> keep it off, the data it gives us won't be as reliable. But in this
> sense I think it's worth a try.

As you said. I think most people will leave it off, mostly the
developers will turn it on I think. I can't see why we'd need this
information other then to use it for debugging purposes. And in that
case my solution will work just aswell.

Can't really see why users would see the point of sending a lot of
data to us everytime they rsync. And we developers will do cvs up
(which I guess many users will to when/if we make it possible to do
anonymous cvs).

Regards,
Mikael Hallendal

-- 
Mikael Hallendal                micke@codefactory.se
CodeFactory AB                  http://www.codefactory.se/
Office: +46 (0)8 587 583 05     Cell: +46 (0)709 718 918

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Mikael Hallendal]

Daniel Robbins <drobbins@gentoo.org> writes:

Hmm, generally I'm (and _many_ others) are against this type of
sending information about which programs you use and such. Statistics
of which packages people use we can probably get from the ftp-server
(to see which files are most requested).

I think however that we should create a script (if there isn't one
already) that helps a user to bugreport. Perhaps something like:

1) Which package do you have problem with
2) Describe the problem
3) The program creates a list of all installed packages and add it.
4) Mail the bugreport to gentoo-dev.

Or something like that

Regards,
Mikael Hallendal

> On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:40:19PM +0300, Dan Armak wrote:
> 
> > This way, we'll know what ebuilds are *known* to work properly - at
> >least under some h/w configurations - and most importantly, in what
> >combinations and revisions. And it will give the users a painless way
> >to help us.
> > 
> > Finally, we'll also know what packages are most often used, in what
> >combinations, and thus (as far as we work for our users) what areas
> >to concentrate upon.
> > 
> > What do you think?
> 
> Interesting idea.  Something to think about for a future version of
> Portage.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> -- 
> Daniel Robbins					<drobbins@gentoo.org>
> Chief Architect/President			http://www.gentoo.org 
> Gentoo Technologies, Inc.			
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@cvs.gentoo.org
> http://cvs.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev

-- 
Mikael Hallendal                micke@codefactory.se
CodeFactory AB                  http://www.codefactory.se/
Office: +46 (0)8 587 583 05     Cell: +46 (0)709 718 918

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[tadpol]

On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:40:19PM +0300, Dan Armak wrote:
> Just an idea: what if users (those who agree, of course), when doing emerge 
> rsync, transmit to the gentoo server anonymous info on which packages they 
> have installed? If not, maybe at least the developers?
> 
> The rationale: I have twice now faced a problem where a complex ebuild I 
> built and commited quite some time ago wasn't functioning. And I said to 
> myself, this is a very important program who's ebuild isn't working! If this 
> was a generic problem I would be flooded with emails from the other people 
> who use it! And I wanted to find these other people who used it, but there 
> were none among the gentoo developers, and I couldn't contact any of the 
> users.

This is confusing.  What I read (and probably not what you ment to say) is
that when ppl try to use an ebuild that doesn't work, they will not tell us
about it?

> This way, we'll know what ebuilds are *known* to work properly - at least 
> under some h/w configurations - and most importantly, in what combinations 
> and revisions. And it will give the users a painless way to help us.

Many people find it quite painful to share details about their systems.
They tend to exagerate it into all kinds of personal invasion.  Even when
there are perfectly good arguments that it is not.  In something like this,
what people think it is has more weight than what it really is.

> Finally, we'll also know what packages are most often used, in what 
> combinations, and thus (as far as we work for our users) what areas to 
> concentrate upon.
> 
> What do you think?

Other than my automatic rejection to collecting info, Someone wil have to
spend a good deal of time building the collection system.  And right now I
think energy could be better spent elsewhere.

I can see how the information would be useful.  And I would suggest a
script that users can run, view the collected infomation, and upload
somewhere over anything automatic.  By putting the details into the hands
of the users, and letting them see exactly what they are going to send
(they wouldn't have to look at the contents, but we should give them the
chance) before they send it, people will likey be more comfortable about
sharing the info.


I imagin I just really confused things....
-- 
Michael Tilstra                       tadpol@tadpol.org
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.  

Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion for User Feedback

[Dan Armak]

On Monday 30 July 2001 22:17, you wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:40:19PM +0300, Dan Armak wrote:
> > Just an idea: what if users (those who agree, of course), when doing
> > emerge rsync, transmit to the gentoo server anonymous info on which
> > packages they have installed? If not, maybe at least the developers?
> >
> > The rationale: I have twice now faced a problem where a complex ebuild I
> > built and commited quite some time ago wasn't functioning. And I said to
> > myself, this is a very important program who's ebuild isn't working! If
> > this was a generic problem I would be flooded with emails from the other
> > people who use it! And I wanted to find these other people who used it,
> > but there were none among the gentoo developers, and I couldn't contact
> > any of the users.
>
> This is confusing.  What I read (and probably not what you ment to say) is
> that when ppl try to use an ebuild that doesn't work, they will not tell us
> about it?
They will, but not through the system I propose.
We will at some point have a standard bug report feature/script. I proposed a 
complementary system which tells us when an ebuild *does* work - which can 
also be very important

>
> > This way, we'll know what ebuilds are *known* to work properly - at least
> > under some h/w configurations - and most importantly, in what
> > combinations and revisions. And it will give the users a painless way to
> > help us.
>
> Many people find it quite painful to share details about their systems.
> They tend to exagerate it into all kinds of personal invasion.  Even when
> there are perfectly good arguments that it is not.  In something like this,
> what people think it is has more weight than what it really is.
Well, we'll juts turn it off by default, and have the user read an 
explanation and decide whether to turn it on.

>
> > Finally, we'll also know what packages are most often used, in what
> > combinations, and thus (as far as we work for our users) what areas to
> > concentrate upon.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Other than my automatic rejection to collecting info, Someone wil have to
> spend a good deal of time building the collection system.  And right now I
> think energy could be better spent elsewhere.
The info would be fully anonymous, as is the rsync protocol. I'd want the 
info that e.g. such and such combination of ebuilds works together in such 
and such revisions. Like getting the directory tree of /var/db/pkg without 
the files. The used make flags, etc. could also be useful. The user could 
customize what info to report.

As for building the system, the user-side thing would be a couple of pages 
long at most, since we already have an rsync implementation in emerge.

The server-side thing could be more or less complex, depending on how 
powerful the system would be. Making a database with dynamic online 
frontends, queries, comparisons etc. etc. would certainly be quite difficult 
but we don't necessarily need all that functionality.

>
> I can see how the information would be useful.  And I would suggest a
> script that users can run, view the collected infomation, and upload
> somewhere over anything automatic.  By putting the details into the hands
> of the users, and letting them see exactly what they are going to send
> (they wouldn't have to look at the contents, but we should give them the
> chance) before they send it, people will likey be more comfortable about
> sharing the info.
As you say.

>
>
> I imagin I just really confused things....

hallski posted much the same questions, see my reply to him.

-- 

Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team
Matan, Israel