From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1E0hqs-0000zy-Ki for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:41:47 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j74Fdu2H029727; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:39:56 GMT Received: from hercules.magbank.com (179.mupb.nyrk.nycenycp.dsl.att.net [12.98.143.179]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j74FbCfI025512 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:37:13 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: where goes Gentoo? Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: <16CC9569DA3E4D41A1D4BC25D7B5A16A491045@hercules.magbank.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [gentoo-dev] Re: where goes Gentoo? Thread-Index: AcWZAXXnha4IT6/CQ220nD6VrIIPDAABlEVg From: "Eric Brown" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by robin.gentoo.org id j74FbCfI025512 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by robin.gentoo.org id j74Fdu3n029727 X-Archives-Salt: 942ceb94-97c1-47b7-80af-d619b3d5ac76 X-Archives-Hash: a1ec9e9d1074d4a49683333a37ff468f >On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 09:04 -0400, Eric Brown wrote: >>=20 >> Interesting thread. I have used Gentoo in enterprise situations very >> successfully, and I think the whole QA/live-tree argument is moot. In >> an enterprise environment, you might have a backup/testing machine to >> run your updates on first before they went live. You also wouldn't ru= n >> new packages unless they passed your own QA tests first. >>=20 >> Given the incredible flexibility of portage to support local mirrors, >> binary package preparation, and localized versions of packages >> (portdir_overlay), I would say that Gentoo is quite a contender in the >> enterprise environment. >>=20 >> Perhaps we need some enterprise documentation to help people realize t= he >> full potential of portage? > >I think you've missed some of the idea of "enterprise" support. See, >for starters, every person shouldn't have to create their own >implementation of everything. Perhaps a better solution would be a >package that when installed, builds up a local mirror, a binary package >repository (with revision control), an automated update system, a system >for updating rolled out machines without forcing the use of etc-update >on each machine, a slower moving stable tree capable of being certified >with applications, and most likely a phone number of someone to call >when the shit hits the fan. Every business application of Gentoo I've done has been different. I don= 't think I could generalize my needs into a single ebuild. Although gene= rally I have used rsyncd and apache, I never use them in the same way. W= hat's so hard about using the default rsyncd config, and adding distfiles= to your apache document root? (what 90% of people would use). About automating updates and etc-update: you can rsync your config file = sometimes and just bypass all of the portage stuff. You could mount some= config dirs over nfs even. You could even remove config_protect on some= dirs and roll your own custom packages. About a slower moving portage tree for enterprise users: Great idea, I t= hink there's a GLEP about that. I think it's best handled by third parti= es who can spend the money/man power on that kind of QA. This brings me to your last point about calling someone when there are pr= oblems: There are companies that provide Linux services, even Gentoo spe= cific services. Some of these companies might even provide enterprise-gr= ade portage mirrors with support for the packages they maintain there. > >While I will completely agree that Gentoo *can* be used in the >enterprise successfully, that does not make it "enterprise-ready", in >any sense. Many people also seem to misunderstand the concept of >"enterprise" when we are referring to it in this manner. We don't mean >"I'm running it on 10 servers in production" or anything like that. We >mean "I'm running this as our production platform for Linux services >across our entire enterprise, that could be hundreds or even thousands >of servers" instead. While it might be possible to maintain a handful >of Gentoo servers, it is next to impossible to maintain an army of them, >without spending significant up-front manpower to design, test, and >implement your own set of management tools. Gentoo has no real >management tools. There are a few here and there that do specific >tasks, but there isn't anything designed to really take control over >your network of systems. To be fair, Red Hat doesn't have anything like >this, either. Their "Satellite Server" product is good for initial >builds and for updates, but falls short on the management aspects. >Novell's offerings are probably the best examples of what we really >need. Of course, most people would be happy with even rudimentary >management capabilities, as currently, we have none. We don't have any >form of update server. You have to build one yourself. We don't have >any form of "jump-start" or "kickstart" for rapid automated deployments. >You have to build one yourself. Now, we do have the Gentoo Linux >Installer project, which has this as one of its goals, so we will have >this component at some point in the future. I'm sorry, I never ran 1000 Gentoo machines in production like that, I th= ought enterprise meant this (answers.com): en=C2=B7ter=C2=B7prise (=C4=95n't=C9=99r-pr=C4=ABz') pronunciation n. 1. An undertaking, especially one of some scope, complication, and ris= k. 2. A business organization. 3. Industrious, systematic activity, especially when directed toward p= rofit: Private enterprise is basic to capitalism. 4. Willingness to undertake new ventures; initiative: =E2=80=9CThrough= want of enterprise and faith men are where they are, buying and selling,= and spending their lives like serfs=E2=80=9D (Henry David Thoreau). Doesn't this just go to show that in business, everyone wants something d= ifferent from Gentoo? What does Novell offer to manage large numbers of = linux boxen? Are you sure projects like OpenMosix don't have tools you c= ould use to manage such a large number of machines? Maybe we can't rely on portage so much in scenarios where replication is = the goal... > >Last, there's the "Our servers just went belly up, and I want to call up >someone on the phone and give them a piece of my mind" issue which gives >managers a warm, fuzzy feeling, that we cannot provide. If something >goes wrong with RHEL or SLES, you call up Red Hat or Novell and get them >to work on the problem. If something goes wrong with Gentoo, you hop on >IRC, or file a bug, and hope that somebody can help you in the time you >need it done in, and not in 3 weeks when the maintaining developer gets >back from his tour of the African Dung Beetle in it's own environment. >Liability is a big selling point for the enterprise. Of course, I'm sure you can't call Red Hat or Suse if you don't pay them = some way or another. If you don't pay, could you find such a supportive = community on IRC or in forums? (I think not) There are lots of Gentoo gurus who will gladly accept your money to help = you fix your problems =3D) > >I work for a telecommunications company, and we run Linux and Solaris. >For our Linux, we run Red Hat, even though they have, on staff, one of >the people that understands Gentoo's deployment capabilities better than >most, via catalyst and the GLI. Why do we run Red Hat? When something >breaks with one of their packages, we call them, and expect them to fix >it. It is also a name that gives upper management the warm fuzzies. >Gentoo has neither the brand recognition, nor the support capabilities >to be a good sale to management. Sounds like FUD to me. Use what works for you though. If you managers r= eally need that big brand name with that 800 number, that's just how you'= ll have to do it. Perhaps I've been lucky at the places I work where I a= m simply responsible myself for keeping certain systems up, and that's th= at. > >I'm not denying that Gentoo is very powerful, flexible, and gives the >power back to the administrator, but that doesn't make it enterprise >ready or friendly. A few success stories from a few people isn't much >to support the position, when we are lacking in so many simple and >obvious ways. Remember, if a manager can think of multiple ways to >knock down the use of Gentoo, like the ones I've given above, what are >you going to do to refute his claims? I wouldn't refute my manager's claims if he controlled my paycheck :D But in my professional opinion, as someone who has had to manage up to 10= Linux servers at a time, Gentoo was by far the best choice. That's what= I'd say to my manager if he ever asked me why I want to use Gentoo. > >I want to see Gentoo as an enterprise-capable distribution myself, but I >also understand that it is a long, hard road ahead of us, and there will >still be some things we simply cannot provide as a community >distribution, which was my reasoning behind the "fork". There would >need to be an entity that is responsible, liable, if you will, when >something goes wrong, and that has the manpower and resources to fix it. > Ever consider founding a company that specializes in Enterprise Gentoo de= ployment and support? It sounds like there could be quite a demand for s= uch services :) >--=20 >Chris Gianelloni >Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager >Games - Developer >Gentoo Linux --=20 gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list