* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:47 ` Patrick Lauer
@ 2013-02-10 11:48 ` Michał Górny
2013-02-10 12:11 ` Rich Freeman
2013-02-10 11:59 ` Pacho Ramos
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Michał Górny @ 2013-02-10 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: patrick
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On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:47:58 +0800
Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 02/10/2013 05:01 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > # Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> (10 Feb 2013)
> > # Fails with gcc-4.7, crashes (#301946, #312073), problems with
> > # boost (#319921), problems with python-2.7 (#338826), really old
> > # version in the tree, people should move to sci overlay one (#424659).
> > # Removal in a month.
> > sci-visualization/paraview
>
> So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we remove
> packages now, remove features from other packages because of that
> (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
>
> Somehow this appears not well thought out to me. Would anyone be
> terribly upset if I started pillaging this silly overlay? (And any other
> overlays that look like they are fun)
+1. If you can't manage moving/updating your packages properly
and on-time from the sci overlay, please get rid of it.
--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:48 ` Michał Górny
@ 2013-02-10 12:11 ` Rich Freeman
2013-02-10 15:10 ` Ben de Groot
0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2013-02-10 12:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: patrick
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> +1. If you can't manage moving/updating your packages properly
> and on-time from the sci overlay, please get rid of it.
Seems like the alternative solution is to just not have these ebuilds
in the main tree.
There is nothing wrong with having an overlay that provides a better
experience than the main tree. Most distros actually operate this way
- just look up your average non-core piece of FOSS software and the
first thing their Ubuntu install instructions will tell you to do is
to add some repository to your list.
I think the main tree can potentially provide a better experience
since it actually gets checked when dependencies are changed.
However, that is only true if somebody is maintaining it.
Pillaging the overlays is fine as long as somebody actually maintains
the package, and it isn't just a one-time copy that resets the clock.
Otherwise, purpose-driven overlays just make sense - they allow a
different set of contributors who are more familiar/interested in a
set of packages to maintain them.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 12:11 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2013-02-10 15:10 ` Ben de Groot
2013-02-10 16:18 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Ben de Groot @ 2013-02-10 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: patrick
On 10 February 2013 20:11, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Otherwise, purpose-driven overlays just make sense - they allow a
> different set of contributors who are more familiar/interested in a
> set of packages to maintain them.
It makes more sense to let those people be proxy-maintainers and keep
those packages in the main tree.
--
Cheers,
Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 15:10 ` Ben de Groot
@ 2013-02-10 16:18 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2013-02-10 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: patrick
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 10 February 2013 20:11, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Otherwise, purpose-driven overlays just make sense - they allow a
>> different set of contributors who are more familiar/interested in a
>> set of packages to maintain them.
>
> It makes more sense to let those people be proxy-maintainers and keep
> those packages in the main tree.
I'm all for that, but until the barriers to that become lower than the
barriers to just creating your own overlay, there will always be
overlays that contain stuff better maintained that the corresponding
stuff in the main tree.
I fully support anything that will make proxy-maintenance easier.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:47 ` Patrick Lauer
2013-02-10 11:48 ` Michał Górny
@ 2013-02-10 11:59 ` Pacho Ramos
2013-02-10 15:05 ` hasufell
2013-02-10 12:12 ` Tomáš Chvátal
2013-02-10 12:51 ` Alexander Berntsen
3 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pacho Ramos @ 2013-02-10 11:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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El dom, 10-02-2013 a las 19:47 +0800, Patrick Lauer escribió:
> On 02/10/2013 05:01 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > # Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> (10 Feb 2013)
> > # Fails with gcc-4.7, crashes (#301946, #312073), problems with
> > # boost (#319921), problems with python-2.7 (#338826), really old
> > # version in the tree, people should move to sci overlay one (#424659).
> > # Removal in a month.
> > sci-visualization/paraview
>
> So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we remove
> packages now, remove features from other packages because of that
> (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
>
> Somehow this appears not well thought out to me. Would anyone be
> terribly upset if I started pillaging this silly overlay? (And any other
> overlays that look like they are fun)
>
That is because looks nobody from sci team has enough time to move
things from sci overlay to the tree (probably because it's being
maintained there by people without commit access). Ideally that people
would become devs with commit rights but, until then, looks like some
packages (usually sci maintained packages) are being maintained better
in overlay than main tree :/
I guess wouldn't be problems on pillaging ebuilds from that overlay to
the tree... but I guess you would be willing to become its maintainer to
update ebuilds from overlay when needed :|
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:59 ` Pacho Ramos
@ 2013-02-10 15:05 ` hasufell
2013-02-10 15:08 ` Pacho Ramos
2013-02-10 15:59 ` Peter Stuge
0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: hasufell @ 2013-02-10 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 02/10/2013 12:47 PM, Patrick Lauer wrote:> Would anyone be
> Would anyone be terribly upset if I started pillaging this silly
> overlay? (And any other overlays that look like they are fun)
>
Go ahead, I will help you.
On 02/10/2013 12:59 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>
> That is because looks nobody from sci team has enough time to move
> things from sci overlay to the tree (probably because it's being
> maintained there by people without commit access).
I take that as a free card to add myself to the sci herd.
As for the overlay discussion, there should only be two reasons to
have ebuilds in a seperate overlay: they depend on dropped packages or
they are unsupportable (e.g. because they are in early alpha stage or
broken in some ways).
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 15:05 ` hasufell
@ 2013-02-10 15:08 ` Pacho Ramos
2013-02-10 15:59 ` Peter Stuge
1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pacho Ramos @ 2013-02-10 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 820 bytes --]
El dom, 10-02-2013 a las 16:05 +0100, hasufell escribió:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 02/10/2013 12:47 PM, Patrick Lauer wrote:> Would anyone be
> > Would anyone be terribly upset if I started pillaging this silly
> > overlay? (And any other overlays that look like they are fun)
> >
>
> Go ahead, I will help you.
>
>
> On 02/10/2013 12:59 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> >
> > That is because looks nobody from sci team has enough time to move
> > things from sci overlay to the tree (probably because it's being
> > maintained there by people without commit access).
>
> I take that as a free card to add myself to the sci herd.
>
That would be nice as, looking to some of its assigned bugs, it needs
help on maintaining the lot of packages included there.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 15:05 ` hasufell
2013-02-10 15:08 ` Pacho Ramos
@ 2013-02-10 15:59 ` Peter Stuge
1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stuge @ 2013-02-10 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
hasufell wrote:
> there should only be two reasons to have ebuilds in a seperate
> overlay: they depend on dropped packages or they are unsupportable
> (e.g. because they are in early alpha stage or broken in some ways).
Keep in mind that there may be lots of other cases which you have not
and can not think of. Overlays are a wonderfully powerful way to
arbitrarily extend Gentoo. They make Gentoo infinitely more useful.
Anyway, in the case of my overlay, the reason that I have it is very
simple: me becoming a dev needs way too much effort.
It sounds like the sci overlay situation is the same.
I don't really mind this situation in practise, but Gentoo of course
loses. :\
//Peter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:47 ` Patrick Lauer
2013-02-10 11:48 ` Michał Górny
2013-02-10 11:59 ` Pacho Ramos
@ 2013-02-10 12:12 ` Tomáš Chvátal
2013-02-10 15:48 ` Peter Stuge
2013-02-10 12:51 ` Alexander Berntsen
3 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Tomáš Chvátal @ 2013-02-10 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Dne Ne 10. února 2013 19:47:58, Patrick Lauer napsal(a):
> On 02/10/2013 05:01 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > # Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> (10 Feb 2013)
> > # Fails with gcc-4.7, crashes (#301946, #312073), problems with
> > # boost (#319921), problems with python-2.7 (#338826), really old
> > # version in the tree, people should move to sci overlay one (#424659).
> > # Removal in a month.
> > sci-visualization/paraview
>
> So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we remove
> packages now, remove features from other packages because of that
> (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
Agreed this is pretty bad idea. The teams should actually have their top
priority to include user contributions to main tree as much as possible. If
the team does not have time to maintain the named package, just add some
contributors as maintainers and do proxy-commits for them...
The greatest problem at least from my PoV is that we can't just simply git am
loads of stuff users are contributing and must convert to cvs (thats actually
what takes me most of the time).
Having nice mailinglist where users can contribute simple patches would be
briliant thing to use :-)
Cheers
Tom
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 12:12 ` Tomáš Chvátal
@ 2013-02-10 15:48 ` Peter Stuge
2013-02-10 18:34 ` Alec Warner
0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stuge @ 2013-02-10 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Having nice mailinglist where users can contribute simple patches
> would be briliant thing to use :-)
That's still a waste of time compared to gerrit. You should look at
it if you don't know it already.
//Peter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 15:48 ` Peter Stuge
@ 2013-02-10 18:34 ` Alec Warner
2013-02-10 19:50 ` Peter Stuge
0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2013-02-10 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Peter Stuge <peter@stuge.se> wrote:
> Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
>> Having nice mailinglist where users can contribute simple patches
>> would be briliant thing to use :-)
>
> That's still a waste of time compared to gerrit. You should look at
> it if you don't know it already.
I'll take patchwork over gerrit, honestly ;)
-A
>
>
> //Peter
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 18:34 ` Alec Warner
@ 2013-02-10 19:50 ` Peter Stuge
0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stuge @ 2013-02-10 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Alec Warner wrote:
> >> Having nice mailinglist where users can contribute simple patches
> >> would be briliant thing to use :-)
> >
> > That's still a waste of time compared to gerrit. You should look at
> > it if you don't know it already.
>
> I'll take patchwork over gerrit, honestly ;)
Did you use gerrit's ssh interface?
//Peter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 11:47 ` Patrick Lauer
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2013-02-10 12:12 ` Tomáš Chvátal
@ 2013-02-10 12:51 ` Alexander Berntsen
2013-02-10 13:26 ` Rich Freeman
2013-02-10 14:37 ` Tomáš Chvátal
3 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2013-02-10 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 10/02/13 12:47, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we
> remove packages now, remove features from other packages because of
> that (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
>
> Somehow this appears not well thought out to me.
+1
On 10/02/13 13:11, Rich Freeman wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with having an overlay that provides a
> better experience than the main tree. Most distros actually
> operate this way
Most distros aren't very good.
> - just look up your average non-core piece of FOSS software and the
> first thing their Ubuntu install instructions will tell you to do
> is to add some repository to your list.
And the second search result is the Ubuntu troubleshooting broken
installs as a result of adding other repositories.
I accept that there may exist reasons for using overlays. "Ubuntu do
it!" is not one.
- --
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 12:51 ` Alexander Berntsen
@ 2013-02-10 13:26 ` Rich Freeman
2013-02-10 14:37 ` Tomáš Chvátal
1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2013-02-10 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Alexander Berntsen
<alexander@plaimi.net> wrote:
>
> On 10/02/13 13:11, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> - just look up your average non-core piece of FOSS software and the
>> first thing their Ubuntu install instructions will tell you to do
>> is to add some repository to your list.
> And the second search result is the Ubuntu troubleshooting broken
> installs as a result of adding other repositories.
>
> I accept that there may exist reasons for using overlays. "Ubuntu do
> it!" is not one.
I have mixed feelings on this. I'd never advocate doing anything
simply because everybody else is doing it - if I wanted to use Ubuntu
I'd be using Ubuntu.
There are pros/cons to overlays right now:
Pros include:
1. More flexible maintenance model. The overlay maintainer can
choose who has access to it. They don't have to worry about people
making tree-wide commits without knowing what they're doing, because
any damage is contained to the overlay (though obviously any package
in an overlay could mess with anything on a user's system).
2. More flexible QA model. Usually that means less QA, which has its
own pros and cons, but it /could/ actually mean more QA, or just
different QA. Right now we have no way of communicating to users
(beyond masks) that packages vary in quality level, and overlays could
be a way to accomplish this. You could also have a set of related
overlays that provide a dev/test/stable experience.
Cons include:
1. No relationship to the tree. If somebody messes with one of your
dependencies they will not take any care not to break your package.
2. Non-mainstream experience. Because Gentoo tends to be
overlay-averse, most users don't use them at all.
3. No real organization. Beyond an entry in the layman list there
really isn't any systematic tracking of overlays and their
quality/etc. We don't "grade" overlays or anything like that.
#1 is the biggest con I'd say. It is made worse by the fact that we
don't have a main repository QA cycle (I'm not suggesting we have
one). For something like Ubuntu anybody maintaining a 3rd party
repository can monitor the release cycle and test against the new
dependency versions before they are released and be ready on day one.
For Gentoo you would have to pay very close attention to bugzilla,
lists, irc, and perhaps even mail aliases (not open to the public) to
have any idea that some change is about to happen to one of your
dependencies if you aren't in the main tree.
A fix for #1 might be some way to allow external parties to register
interest in upcoming changes and get alerted. Then those changing
libs could just trigger the alerts (and that system might also file
bugs against in-tree packages to request testing). We obviously
wouldn't consider any outside overlays blockers, but we could be nicer
to them. Of course, that takes work and I'm skeptical that this would
ever happen.
So, those are just my thoughts on overlays. I don't think they're a
bad thing. However, there are some things about Gentoo that make them
less practical than on other distros. I won't argue that you get the
best possible experience if the package is in the tree AND IT IS
MAINTAINED. The problem is that in a volunteer-based organization the
second half of that is hard to guarantee.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 12:51 ` Alexander Berntsen
2013-02-10 13:26 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2013-02-10 14:37 ` Tomáš Chvátal
2013-02-10 14:49 ` Rich Freeman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Tomáš Chvátal @ 2013-02-10 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Dne Ne 10. února 2013 13:51:16, Alexander Berntsen napsal(a):
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 10/02/13 12:47, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> > So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we
> > remove packages now, remove features from other packages because of
> >
> > that (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
> >
> > Somehow this appears not well thought out to me.
>
> +1
>
> On 10/02/13 13:11, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > There is nothing wrong with having an overlay that provides a
> > better experience than the main tree. Most distros actually
> > operate this way
>
> Most distros aren't very good.
>
> > - just look up your average non-core piece of FOSS software and the
> >
> > first thing their Ubuntu install instructions will tell you to do
> >
> > is to add some repository to your list.
>
> And the second search result is the Ubuntu troubleshooting broken
> installs as a result of adding other repositories.
>
> I accept that there may exist reasons for using overlays. "Ubuntu do
> it!" is not one.
>
Don't worry,
no matter what are Richs opinions he is not the one crating global policies
for this, so the defaults still are that we encourage adding all stuff to main
tree where possible. Even the overlays are supposed to be just plaingrounds
where we train upcoming devs, or pose as live ebuild/huge experimantal changes
storage space.
Even the excuse that it is not maintained so it is to stay in overlay is
false, because when somebody mess with the package in overlay they can became
maintainers in the main tree too without much fuzz.
But I suppose this problem is created simply because people not wanting to
work with cvs (and I purely agree that git workflow is much easier wrt
this)...
Cheers
Tom
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf
2013-02-10 14:37 ` Tomáš Chvátal
@ 2013-02-10 14:49 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2013-02-10 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Tomáš Chvátal <tomas.chvatal@gmail.com> wrote:
> no matter what are Richs opinions he is not the one crating global policies
> for this, so the defaults still are that we encourage adding all stuff to main
> tree where possible.
Relax, and don't make it personal.
The bottom line is that some encourage putting stuff in the tree, and
others like to work from overlays. No developer is going to get
banned for working on an overlay on the side.
In the end packages in the tree will be better maintained if
developers step up and maintain them, and packages in an overlay will
be better maintained if developers step up and maintain them.
Anything else is just flames on the lists.
I never claimed to speak for a majority, and the only time I concern
myself with majority opinion is when following policies or voting as a
trustee.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread